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Old 01-05-2007   #1
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Default What are you thinking??

this is a busted run play.... the blocking got all screwed up, and the QB RB exchange got muffed.

I watched this play a couple of times trying to figure out who should do what, and who screwed up. Of course you & I may never know, but...... if this were your team, how would you have told them to block in this situation??

If you don't remember the play, it was a FB Lead to the left.... looks to me like they were aiming between the Guard & the Center(A Gap??).....



Never mind the fumble, just the blocking....... how would you like for these guys to block??
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Old 01-06-2007   #2
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

Well you could do it a couple of ways. I would probably have the TE seal the end man out of the play. Have the LT block the DE with the LG chipping and going or staying depending on the pressure of the DE and his path taken. Center and RG take the NT with the RG chipping and releasing as well. RT I would have seal the DE on the away side. You could also pull the RG and use him as an extra lead blocker.
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Old 01-06-2007   #3
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

Tight end block the right outside linebacker.

Left tackle block the right end.

Left guard block the right inside line backer.

Center block the nose tackle.

Right guard block the left inside line backer.

Right tackle block the left end.
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Old 01-06-2007   #4
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

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Originally Posted by Buckle View Post
You could also pull the RG and use him as an extra lead blocker.
Good Idea....... but I don't know if it's a problem with Weary's athletecism, but we never pull the RG.... actually we haven't pulled our guards until Weigart got hurt, and started to pull Chester to the right side.



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Originally Posted by jdog View Post
Tight end block the right outside linebacker.

Left tackle block the right end.

Left guard block the right inside line backer.

Center block the nose tackle.

Right guard block the left inside line backer.

Right tackle block the left end.
Sounds simple enough.....
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Old 01-06-2007   #5
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

Tooooo much time on your hands.
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Old 01-06-2007   #6
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

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Originally Posted by Hulk75 View Post
Tooooo much time on your hands.
hey, if you'd rather we talk about the QB position some more, we can do that. If you'd like to talk about some other aspect of football... well this is just one outlet.
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Old 01-06-2007   #7
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

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Tooooo much time on your hands.
I thought you had done your "last post". Oh, was that for 2006? is that what you meant?
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Old 01-06-2007   #8
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Good Idea....... but I don't know if it's a problem with Weary's athletecism, but we never pull the RG.... actually we haven't pulled our guards until Weigart got hurt, and started to pull Chester to the right side.



Sounds simple enough.....
Pulling a guard looks pretty good.
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Old 01-06-2007   #9
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

this is how we did it.......



Zone Blocking.... everyone but the Center's first step was to the right....

look at how it messes up the block on the right DE(Salaam gives up his inside shoulder), Pitts is not squared up on the ILB.

IMHO the ZBS thing would be fine, if Salaam would have ignored the DE over him, and took out the OLB... & Pitts attack the DE.... this would give our guys the advantage since the defensive players would be working against their leverage, which is straight ahead of their squared sholders.... to my understanding, that is the strenght of the ZBS, allowing physically weeker players to dominate stronger players.



here, Salaam has been exposed... his right arm is extended across the front of the DE(holding), he's already lost this battle. Salaam chips the ILB... that's okay, if he would continue & block the safety coming into the play. McKinney should have left his block on the NT by now...... Weary should have an advantage on the NT. McKinney should move up to the next level and put the other ILB on his ass....



Bruenner is doing a fine job on the OLB..... Salaam is still Holding the DE.... Pitts stops playing.. figures there is nothing else for him to do, as he watches the ILB he chipped get past him...... McKinney appears to be heading for the second level(good job) & Weary has the NT right were he wants him.. shoulders are not pointed at the line, and Weary has the ability to push where the NT has no leverage at all.

Leach doesn't get a clean shot on the ILB because of the chip Pitts put on him.. but he's still out of the play... had Taylor handled the ball, this would have been a solid run..

Had Pitts kept playing, this would have been a big run....

Had the play continued, this play would have come back because of the hold by Salaam......

This play is indicative(I think) of where we are with ZBS..... close, but not there.

Salaam, was left out to dry by Pitts..... Pitts responsibility should have been to hit the DE on his weakside, squaring him up to Salaam, so that Salaam wouldn't be exposed, then release, and slide up to the second level.

Pitts is also thinking man blocking... the ILB is not his concern..... he should take out the DE... the ILB would have been handled better.... cleanly by Leach. McKinney would have progressed to the second level...... should have taken out the safety, and Winston should have blindsided the second ILB.... Leaving a sweet seam for Taylor to bust through.
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Old 01-06-2007   #10
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

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I thought you had done your "last post". Oh, was that for 2006? is that what you meant?
Yea thats what it was............
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Old 01-06-2007   #11
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

I disagree a little. Salaam should have squared up on the DE but otherwise it's good.

The main mishap here in my opinion is Pitts going to help on the DE.

If he goes for the ILB right off the bat, the play doesn't get blown up, and there would be a nice big hole.

The reason Pitts goes for the DE first then attempts to go to the ILB and is too late is because of this zone blocking scheme.

He should not be required to hit the DE first and then go to the next level. It makes no sense to me. Salaam is right there.

Leach would be better suited to help with either the ILB or the DE if either of them's winning against Salaam or Pitts.

Instead, our hole opens up in time for the ILB to blow up the run rather than opening up in time for the FB to lead block for the HB.
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Old 01-06-2007   #12
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Cool Re: What are you thinking??

Hey thunder, rep for this post Refreshing to see an intewlligent thread. Also, great for someone (me) who doesn't have a football background.
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Old 01-06-2007   #13
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

Here is what I would do.

Get some real NFL tackles!!!
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Old 01-06-2007   #14
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

we need more threads like these where we break down plays. i'm liking it.
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Old 01-06-2007   #15
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdog View Post
I disagree a little. Salaam should have squared up on the DE but otherwise it's good.
true, that could've happened... But the older beat up Salaam would not be able to do that very often in a game.. he'd get tired.... if you had a JoeThomas, Charles Spencer, D'Bricshaw...... yeah, I could see that. But you're taking away the advantages of the ZBS.

Quote:
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The main mishap here in my opinion is Pitts going to help on the DE.
the main mishap, is that he didn't help on the DE.... this would have been a holding penalty... had we not fumbled the ball.
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If he goes for the ILB right off the bat, the play doesn't get blown up, and there would be a nice big hole.
it's probably hard to tell from the still-frames, but the play didn't get blown up. had Taylor got the ball, it would have been a big gain, if not for the hold.
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The reason Pitts goes for the DE first then attempts to go to the ILB and is too late is because of this zone blocking scheme.
he'd have been on time with his responsibility if he'd have gone ahead and helped double the DE.
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He should not be required to hit the DE first and then go to the next level. It makes no sense to me. Salaam is right there.
Again.... with the ZBS, your advantage is that you can beat the other guy, wether it's Cameron Wimbley, Julius Peppers, Marcus Spears, Jason Taylor, Mike Rutgers....... whoever. You can try to find the one guy who can beat any of them week in & week out if you like, but it's going to cost you alot more than Ephraim Salaam.
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Leach would be better suited to help with either the ILB or the DE if either of them's winning against Salaam or Pitts.
He'd be too late to help Salaam.... the holding has already occured. In this case, since that's "just" Cameron Wimbley.... if Salaam would have squared up on him, you're probably right.

But I don't have a problem with letting the ILB come in to be pulverized by Vonta Leech.
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Instead, our hole opens up in time for the ILB to blow up the run rather than opening up in time for the FB to lead block for the HB.
?? I agree, there are a hundred ways to skin this cat... had Pitts squared up and knocked the ILB on his ass(which he should be able to do with the size/strenght advantage he should have), he could have continued into the secondary and taken out that safety as well, leaving the corner that's out there somewhere for VL to decimate....

But my goal here was not to debate ZBS vs Man Blocking.... but to show some weaknesses in our ZBS(Pitts) & some strengths.... McKinney at center(neither Flanagan of Hogdon could move people the way McKinney does) & Winston(Provide enough resistance to slow down the other DE, and make it into the second level, ready to pounce).

Had Pitts gone on to hit the DE, that resulting Vonta Leech hit on that ILB would have been top 5 material for jacked up.
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Old 01-06-2007   #16
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

I don't know how it looks in real time, but in the frame it looks like the ILB gets through and Vonta stops in his tracks to put a hit on him which causes Taylor to go "Oh, snap" and mess up the hand off.
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Old 01-06-2007   #17
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

As far as Salaam man on the RDE, you are right. I forget that a key element in the game is the superiority of some players over others.

The holding call would have ruined any alternative success.

So Pitts should have doubled the RDE with Salaam.

Leach should have blocked the ILB.

Taylor should not have fumbled the hand off.
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Old 01-06-2007   #18
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post



Pitts is the one who should be blamed for this play from this frame. His head is supposed to be on a swivel. I played TE on a ZBS team and was mostly a blocker because of our bad o-line. You are supposed to be "on a rail" with your head on a swivel. The play might have worked one way or another yes, but Pitt's responsiblity in the ZBS on this play was the MLB. If someone crosses your face, you are supposed to pick him up and wash him out of the play. Bruener proves why he is in the NFL on this series. McKinny needs to shed faster and be at the next level. He is only supposed to chip the guy and turn his shoulder for Weary to have a greater advantage before he immediately heads off to the second level. OT's rarely move to the second level in a ZBS, it is mostly the interior line, and the C almost always is trying to get to the LB's. Salem's footwork is horrible. I'm surprised he didn't get knocked down by looking at his foundation. He let the defensive player get the wrong shoulder. In the ZBS, you don't NEED to wash the player out, but you can't give up ground and you have to seal the hole properly. Even if you don't push him one way, your hips need to be sealing the hole for the RB to fit through. Winston does a good job here. McKinny does his job, granted it took too long, but he did it. Pitts and Salem messed this play up.
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Old 01-06-2007   #19
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post



This shows Pitts missing what should have been his man. The MLB on this play wasn't Leach's responsibility according to ZBS principles. Leach should have had the SS on this play, running right through the hole to reach him. Instead, Leach had to pick up the MLB that Pitts should have had.
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Old 01-06-2007   #20
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Default Re: What are you thinking??

it deffinately looks as if pitts missed on this play, however we're running a man blocking scheme instead of a zone. that becomes apparent by pitts' first step which is towards the RDE. if we were running a zone, pitts would see that there's no man immediately infront of him and would've pushed to the second level right off of the snap which would've squared him up on the RILB or even the SS. pitts also loses points here for turning to find the man he missed instead of continuing ahead and picking up the next man. center & RG hit their assignment correctly, as did the LT, RT, and TE. tight end & right tackle blocked exellently by getting inside of their man. even though winston didnt put on the best of blocks, he pushed his man outside and away from the running play, without wasting time considering the LOLB. Salaam didnt help this play though since he went outside of the RDE on a run to his inside. salaam needs to know the intent of the run and setup inside & push out (as the TE masterfully did) ... the opposite happened and he was called for a hold as well as allowing his man to make a would be tackle. leach's first read would be pitts' RILB, followed by whichever approached next ... the cheating SS (most likeley target) or the LILB to the pic's right. leach did well to turn and pick up his first target (RILB) although i'm sure he would've preferred to hit him after the LOS.

good execution by TE, C, RG, RT, FB. poor execution by LG, LT. salaam's RDE would've made the tackle for little or no gain.

if i understand it correctly, a pure zone in this situation has flanagan throwing a cut-block, pitts & weary going immediately to the second level, and LT/RT/TE doing the same as they did.
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