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Old 01-01-2007   #1
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Default you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

this is the same guy everyone critized for going deep to bradford at the end of a game when andre was open short. he's being told(imo) to take three steps and throw. his coaches are telling him this cause they know his line wont hold up.

earlier in the year he looked pretty good. he was going down field some. then injuries forced a new aproach and i think he did pretty badly at times. carr has showed me he is not a good qb if he is not protected. he hasnt had much of a chance to show me anything else. but for a few games early this year when the line was playing well and he started to get comfortable he looked good. some guys were even starting to change their opinion of him.

hes already paid for next year. why not keep him. im not insane i do want a quality back up. i dont want him to be our only option. but their are not 3 or 4 qb's in the league who can get it done with an o-line like we have had. so do we hope to get one of these few guys our do we fix the o-line. my guess is they our gonna keep improving the o-line. and why get rid of someone who still wants to be here and can possibly be the answer for just anyone we happen to find.

6 out of ten guys we might get will be hurt in 3 or 4 weeks behind the line we ended the season with. then what. how did sage get hurt? was he holding for pat? im not sure. you think he will last behind our line this year.

here is the thing. i usually hate when people say this. but i think i will go with whatever kubes decides. i mean he's the one that knows what hes been telling carr. is he coaching him to get rid of the ball. is he just telling carr to be careful because our defense can keep us in it untill our line starts improving. maybe carr just isnt seeing the open guys cant tell from my tv. if if it were capers i wouldnt just trust this decision to him. but kubes was my choice and someone must of heard me cause he's here. and i dont think no one know's qb's better than him.

i guess we will see what happens but if carr goes i hope we get someone of his character. as much as i like carr i do want this team to win. and i predict playoffs next year so i hope we get this one right.

mods, i know this is just another carr thread and i started to put it with the other carr thread at this time but since carr is our hottest topic and i havent seen where his opting for the short pass has been discussed much i thought it deservered a new thread. if not combine it up.
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Old 01-02-2007   #2
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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Originally Posted by markbeth View Post
this is the same guy everyone critized for going deep to bradford at the end of a game when andre was open short. he's being told(imo) to take three steps and throw. his coaches are telling him this cause they know his line wont hold up.
It's not just that he doesn't go downfield often...... it's that when he does, he screws it up. With recievers like Andre & Moulds, there are a dozen places where David can put the ball & let them make a play. David puts it in the one place that gives them no chance.
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Originally Posted by markbeth View Post
earlier in the year he looked pretty good. he was going down field some. then injuries forced a new aproach and i think he did pretty badly at times.
That's not exactly true... first eight games, I'd imagine he was sacked on aVg.. 4 times a game.

Last 8, somewhere closer to 2...
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Originally Posted by markbeth View Post
carr has showed me he is not a good qb if he is not protected. he hasnt had much of a chance to show me anything else. but for a few games early this year when the line was playing well and he started to get comfortable he looked good. some guys were even starting to change their opinion of him.
we can't protect him. That's part of the problem. We've played musical lineman for the fifth year running. we can't protect him. We need to put someone else back there, and see if they can produce.
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Originally Posted by markbeth View Post
hes already paid for next year. why not keep him. im not insane i do want a quality back up. i dont want him to be our only option. but their are not 3 or 4 qb's in the league who can get it done with an o-line like we have had. so do we hope to get one of these few guys our do we fix the o-line. my guess is they our gonna keep improving the o-line. and why get rid of someone who still wants to be here and can possibly be the answer for just anyone we happen to find.
Letting David go would benefit David more than it will benefit the Texans. Letting him go would be a favor.

That said, I don't advocate getting rid of him. I say we start someone else, till we can say the OL is fixed...... then throw David back in there.
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Originally Posted by markbeth View Post
6 out of ten guys we might get will be hurt in 3 or 4 weeks behind the line we ended the season with. then what. how did sage get hurt? was he holding for pat? im not sure. you think he will last behind our line this year.
Sage Tackled a guy trying to return a bothced Field goal kick.

If another guy get's hurt behind our line..... then that would mean you were right. I'd be all for it if I were you.
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here is the thing. i usually hate when people say this. but i think i will go with whatever kubes decides. i mean he's the one that knows what hes been telling carr. is he coaching him to get rid of the ball. is he just telling carr to be careful because our defense can keep us in it untill our line starts improving. maybe carr just isnt seeing the open guys cant tell from my tv. if if it were capers i wouldnt just trust this decision to him. but kubes was my choice and someone must of heard me cause he's here. and i dont think no one know's qb's better than him.
especially on three step drops, things are happening too fast for you to wait for someone to get open. In this situation, you're looking for man coverage on your best reciever.

before the snap, you look at the defense....locate the safeties, then locate the corners. locate your linebackers...... call out the rushers.

As you call out your cadence... pay attention to what the safeties/CBs are doing. hike the ball.

on your first step, look towards your first option. You're looking at the defense, not your reciever. You already know what he's going to do, because you've been watching him all year in practice.

on your second step, Turn your head and look towards your second option...... again, looking at the defense.

on your third step, turn your head, and look at your third option.... again, looking at the defense.

now, did you have man coverage on your first read?? If yes, when you step forward, you step towards that reciever and unload the ball. if the coverage was underneath with safeties on the inside, you throw over the top to the outside. If the coverage is outside & on top, you throw the ball inside.. where your reciever is between the ball & the defender.

When your QB continues to pull the ball down after his 3 step drop, again & again, and again... taking sack after sack.... you've got to wonder what is going on in his head. Or when he continues to dump down even though you're getting the coverage & mismatches you want.... you've got to wonder.
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Old 01-02-2007   #3
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

I've said for a long time I believe Carr is doing exactly what he is told to do. Kubiak has said time and time again he does not allow his QB's any leaveway. He does not allow audibles and the play is of a designated nature. Many different looks, but basically the same play.

Equally talked about, but seldom discussed at any length is why our receivers seem not to be able to get separation from their defenders. A lot of problems start with the O-line and the running game.

The NFL learned a lot in the 1st season game that Carr played in when we beat the Cowboys. SD started that trend in the next game and it has been repeated over and over again. That was simply you can not let Carr sit in the pocket because he will beat you. Since that time every team has evoked that stategy and to this date the Texans have never really done anything to counter it. Folks, it is as simple as that.
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Old 01-02-2007   #4
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

pretty much i think we see eye to eye.

i cant do those partial quotes like you do ill mess with that one day.

the first quote you had is the one i disagree with the most. we havent seen him go downfield lately enough to form a good opinion. you have just started posting a lot lately and you seem to know a lot. i dont know if you watched him the whole 5 years he's been here but he is very accuarte even downfield when given time. i dont think thats a concern with him. its more of a question about his pocket presence and just his general football decesions.

the second quote is that he was sacked earlier in the begining of the year and thats probable true. he had a better line and they were trying to open it up more thats why he started producing(imo). he was still getting sacked but he was making some plays. i said the line was better it still wasnt a quality nfl o-line. it was just good enough to give him some time to do his thing.

the next quote you agree we cant protect him and thats true. i just dont think there are many qb's who can produce in that situation and i think it isnt worth the gamble trying to find one of the elusive guys. although vince is looking like he might of been one of these guys thats the past and if you think someone like him is just laying around then you dont think much of him.

the other quotes i cant say anything against. again from reading your post's we see a lot of the same.
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Old 01-02-2007   #5
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
That's not exactly true... first eight games, I'd imagine he was sacked on aVg.. 4 times a game.

Last 8, somewhere closer to 2...
My numbers could be wrong but I went to NFL.com and looked up the game stats for each of our games this season and counted the sacks. Maybe those aren't the most accurate or something but they say our opponents sacked us 42 times this year.

Again I could have counted wrong or something but assuming I got it right (or close) then it looks to me like things went like this

Eagles (L) 5 sacks
Colts (L) 4 sacks
Redskins (L) 1 sack
Dolphins (W) 5 sacks
Cowboys (L) 0 sacks
Jaguars (W) 1 sack
Titans (L) 4 sacks
Giants (L) 1 sack

That's 21 sacks in our first 8 games for an average of 2.6 sacks per game. The second half of the year went like this

Jaguars (W) 3 sacks
Bills (L) 2 sacks
Jets (L) 4 sacks
Raiders (W) 5 sacks
Titans (L) 2 sacks
Patriots (L) 4 sacks
Colts (W) 0 sacks
Browns (W) 1 sack

Again that's 21 sacks in 8 games for an average of 2.6 sacks per game.

I don't know what that means really. When we lost Spencer, Weigert, and Flannagan we didn't really drop off all that much. At least that's what these numbers seem to show.

That's 42 sacks. It's not good by any stretch of the imagination (and it might not even be completely accurate) but it's not the most horrible performance in the history of the NFL. I know because we saw it back in 2002. 42 sacks isn't good but it's a lot better than 76 sacks. People down on the Texans line always seem to be obsessed with our record setting sack numbers but in 2003 we dropped to 36 sacks. In 2004 I know we went back up to the mid 40's but I don't remember what we gave up last year. The point is that while Carr has been sacked a lot he hasn't been taking a 76 sack beating every year since he got here.

Edit: Took me a moment to find it but this appears to be what our sack numbers look like for the last 5 years

2002: 76
2003: 36
2004: 49
2005: 68
2006: 42 (I think)

Ok, 2002 and 2005 were just brutal years and there's no way to get around that. Even when you factor in how often David sacks himself it's still too many sacks. 2003 and 2006 though aren't maulings and we somehow managed to have our best season in 2004 (7-9) when our QB's were sacked 49 times. Carr didn't take all of those because 2004 was the year he missed time with injury and Banks got some starts.
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Old 01-02-2007   #6
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry View Post
I've said for a long time I believe Carr is doing exactly what he is told to do. Kubiak has said time and time again he does not allow his QB's any leaveway. He does not allow audibles and the play is of a designated nature. Many different looks, but basically the same play.

Equally talked about, but seldom discussed at any length is why our receivers seem not to be able to get separation from their defenders. A lot of problems start with the O-line and the running game.

The NFL learned a lot in the 1st season game that Carr played in when we beat the Cowboys. SD started that trend in the next game and it has been repeated over and over again. That was simply you can not let Carr sit in the pocket because he will beat you. Since that time every team has evoked that stategy and to this date the Texans have never really done anything to counter it. Folks, it is as simple as that.

You are about the smartest, sanest read I found on this entire message board. You and the Chick that is. 1 rep for you coming your way.
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Old 01-02-2007   #7
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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Originally Posted by markbeth View Post
pretty much i think we see eye to eye.

i cant do those partial quotes like you do ill mess with that one day.

the first quote you had is the one i disagree with the most. we havent seen him go downfield lately enough to form a good opinion. you have just started posting a lot lately and you seem to know a lot. i dont know if you watched him the whole 5 years he's been here but he is very accuarte even downfield when given time. i dont think thats a concern with him. its more of a question about his pocket presence and just his general football decesions.

the second quote is that he was sacked earlier in the begining of the year and thats probable true. he had a better line and they were trying to open it up more thats why he started producing(imo). he was still getting sacked but he was making some plays. i said the line was better it still wasnt a quality nfl o-line. it was just good enough to give him some time to do his thing.

the next quote you agree we cant protect him and thats true. i just dont think there are many qb's who can produce in that situation and i think it isnt worth the gamble trying to find one of the elusive guys. although vince is looking like he might of been one of these guys thats the past and if you think someone like him is just laying around then you dont think much of him.

the other quotes i cant say anything against. again from reading your post's we see a lot of the same.
Unfortunately, its not just sacks that count. The object of the defense is to put pressure on the QB even if you don't sack him. In our case I think the sacks are down, but not the pressure. David just never seems to have the time the opposing QB has in the pocket. I would just say to people go back and read how many posters are upset because we do not get pressure on the opposing QB. The reason they are upset is they no pressure leads to bad things. Well, guess what, that is true of our QB as well. Again, does Carr do some bad things, yes. But I think they have a lot to do with the pressure he has been under.

The real question was do I believe he has the right to go down field and I said no. I believe Kubiak makes that call and it is seldom granted. If you listen to what Kubiak says he says there are only a few opportunites in each game where you get chances to make big plays. I believe David has been given a very strict set of guidelines as to when he can go for it. I believe he has the green light on only certain plays and they are infrequently called. This has to do with as much of the style of play Kubiak is use to as it does the QB.
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Old 01-02-2007   #8
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry View Post
I've said for a long time I believe Carr is doing exactly what he is told to do. Kubiak has said time and time again he does not allow his QB's any leaveway. He does not allow audibles and the play is of a designated nature. Many different looks, but basically the same play.

Equally talked about, but seldom discussed at any length is why our receivers seem not to be able to get separation from their defenders. A lot of problems start with the O-line and the running game.

The NFL learned a lot in the 1st season game that Carr played in when we beat the Cowboys. SD started that trend in the next game and it has been repeated over and over again. That was simply you can not let Carr sit in the pocket because he will beat you. Since that time every team has evoked that stategy and to this date the Texans have never really done anything to counter it. Folks, it is as simple as that.
I Totally agree! I think that's why Kubes stated today that part of the QB problem this year was in the coahing and should be changed. If the HC is saying that, then it must be true.
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Old 01-02-2007   #9
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

Quote:
Originally Posted by markbeth View Post
pretty much i think we see eye to eye.

i cant do those partial quotes like you do ill mess with that one day.
It's easier than it looks... I set this up one time..
/quote

QUOTE=markbeth;559772

and just copy & paste it where ever I want to make a break, then type my reply in between the two lines.(I took out the brackets so that it would show up right.
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Originally Posted by markbeth View Post
the first quote you had is the one i disagree with the most. we havent seen him go downfield lately enough to form a good opinion. you have just started posting a lot lately and you seem to know a lot. i dont know if you watched him the whole 5 years he's been here but he is very accuarte even downfield when given time. i dont think thats a concern with him. its more of a question about his pocket presence and just his general football decesions.
I've watched all five years.... but I don't have the kind of memory where I can recall this pass, or that pass... I remember that we beat the Cowboys in our first game ever... but I wouldn't remember the score if we didn't talk about it so much here.

I never thought David had a problem with accuracy, or ball placement, I don't know if I didn't ever see it before, or if I just don't remember. Guys like Vinny have questioned his accuracy since the beginning.. so I have to wonder.
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Originally Posted by markbeth View Post
the second quote is that he was sacked earlier in the begining of the year and thats probable true. he had a better line and they were trying to open it up more thats why he started producing(imo). he was still getting sacked but he was making some plays. i said the line was better it still wasnt a quality nfl o-line. it was just good enough to give him some time to do his thing.
I don't think the play of the offensive line was the problem. I think our Line was playing better at the end of the season than it was at the beginning of the season.

David was showing progress..... progress I was happy to see.... up until the benching. He had been fumbling damn near every game up till then, & Kubiak just had enough.... I don't agree with that benching,(I agree David should have been benched for fumbling, just not during that game)..... but it seems that ball control took precedence over all else since then.

I had just been complimenting David on his progress in the Miami game where David did a good job finding holes in zone coverage, and the Washington game, where David actually challenged CBs & Safeties, and presented opportunities for our recievers to make plays.

He stared down AJ on that one INT against Dallas..... but other than that, he was doing well looking off coverage..... or at least you could see he was trying to develop the skill.

After Tennessee, he stared down his recievers on a consistent basis....... one read, then dump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbeth View Post
the next quote you agree we cant protect him and thats true. i just dont think there are many qb's who can produce in that situation and i think it isnt worth the gamble trying to find one of the elusive guys. although vince is looking like he might of been one of these guys thats the past and if you think someone like him is just laying around then you dont think much of him.
I don't think it makes any sense to let David get pummeled week in & week out...

Why don't they run the option in the NFL??

Because we pay the QBs too much.

We pay Carr on avg $8 mil/year to play tackling dummy.

Let's put Bradley Van Pelt back there until we can see something that looks like protection.

Right now we know the QB doesn't have enough time to do what he needs to do........ why not?? is it because the QB needs more than the 2.5 seconds most QBs need?? or is it because our line can't provide 2.5 seconds on a consistent enough basis??

We could time them, with a stop watch....... & we'll see they provide 2.5 seconds worth of protection on most occasions.
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Old 01-02-2007   #10
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

I've watched David longer than 5 years.
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Old 01-02-2007   #11
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry View Post
The real question was do I believe he has the right to go down field and I said no. I believe Kubiak makes that call and it is seldom granted. If you listen to what Kubiak says he says there are only a few opportunites in each game where you get chances to make big plays. I believe David has been given a very strict set of guidelines as to when he can go for it. I believe he has the green light on only certain plays and they are infrequently called. This has to do with as much of the style of play Kubiak is use to as it does the QB.
That's about as stupid as saying that David should be calling his own plays.

do you not see David staring at his first read then dumping down?? Is the coach telling him to do that as well??
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Old 01-02-2007   #12
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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I Totally agree! I think that's why Kubes stated today that part of the QB problem this year was in the coahing and should be changed. If the HC is saying that, then it must be true.
Or he is having to take a backseat to SOMEONE like Capers had to.

Honestly...its hard for me to take anyone seriously that still thinks David Carr is right for this team.
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Old 01-02-2007   #13
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

There's one thing I've never been able to explain but it's been consistent now for the entire time we've had the Texans. When anyone other than David Carr is under center the entire offense appears to slow down. I saw it happen in 2003 when Tony Banks played for us in a few games and I saw it that same year when Dave Ragone played as well. That was the year that it seemed like everyone got hurt. Now granted Ragone didn't accomplish much but he also didn't get Domanick Davis (also hurt at the time). Things still slowed down when he was in there.

This year in the short amount of time Rosenfels got to play we saw the same thing. The offense seemed to settle down. It's not that these guys didn't get pressure, they absolutely did. At the same time they made plays.

The difference is hard to miss. When David is taking the snaps everything seems to be happening in fast forward. When he sits down and someone else comes in they appear to often have plenty of time to let the play develop. I've sat there and timed (crudely, counting out loud) them and it's not like Banks or Rosenfels was getting seconds longer than Carr did. It was pretty much the same thing.

I can't explain it, I just know I'm sick of watching it.
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Old 01-02-2007   #14
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
That's about as stupid as saying that David should be calling his own plays.

do you not see David staring at his first read then dumping down?? Is the coach telling him to do that as well??
As you obviously know I'm a firm believer of the QB calling his own plays. I think there are a lot of QB's in the NFL who are a lot better play callers than their coaches. For openers, Payton's younger brother would probably be a better play caller than his HC. Yes, and Kubiak is a big part of what is happening. A gun slinger is going to make mistakes, but if he can't make mistakes then he's not going to be a gun slinger.
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Old 01-02-2007   #15
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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It's easier than it looks... I set this up one time..
/quote

QUOTE=markbeth;559772

and just copy & paste it where ever I want to make a break, then type my reply in between the two lines.(I took out the brackets so that it would show up right.

I've watched all five years.... but I don't have the kind of memory where I can recall this pass, or that pass... I remember that we beat the Cowboys in our first game ever... but I wouldn't remember the score if we didn't talk about it so much here.

I never thought David had a problem with accuracy, or ball placement, I don't know if I didn't ever see it before, or if I just don't remember. Guys like Vinny have questioned his accuracy since the beginning.. so I have to wonder.

I don't think the play of the offensive line was the problem. I think our Line was playing better at the end of the season than it was at the beginning of the season.

David was showing progress..... progress I was happy to see.... up until the benching. He had been fumbling damn near every game up till then, & Kubiak just had enough.... I don't agree with that benching,(I agree David should have been benched for fumbling, just not during that game)..... but it seems that ball control took precedence over all else since then.

I had just been complimenting David on his progress in the Miami game where David did a good job finding holes in zone coverage, and the Washington game, where David actually challenged CBs & Safeties, and presented opportunities for our recievers to make plays.

He stared down AJ on that one INT against Dallas..... but other than that, he was doing well looking off coverage..... or at least you could see he was trying to develop the skill.

After Tennessee, he stared down his recievers on a consistent basis....... one read, then dump.

I don't think it makes any sense to let David get pummeled week in & week out...

Why don't they run the option in the NFL??

Because we pay the QBs too much.

We pay Carr on avg $8 mil/year to play tackling dummy.

Let's put Bradley Van Pelt back there until we can see something that looks like protection.

Right now we know the QB doesn't have enough time to do what he needs to do........ why not?? is it because the QB needs more than the 2.5 seconds most QBs need?? or is it because our line can't provide 2.5 seconds on a consistent enough basis??

We could time them, with a stop watch....... & we'll see they provide 2.5 seconds worth of protection on most occasions.
the accuracy part i would argue with anyone with. imo the guy is as accurate as they come when given the time. imo he has all the physical tools its the mental part that he has trouble with. but the thing is he does exactly as he is told. and with the right coaching(which i think kubes is) he could be good. really good. but only with a line.

but i really disagree with you stating the line was playing better at the end than the begining. it seem the whole offense changed just to make up for the poor line play. the whole scheme changed to getting rid of the ball before the sack. early on we were letting carr play a little and the line was doing an ok job. later in the year it seemed or whole game plan was to protect our weak offensive line. some people would say it was to protect our week qb play. thats pretty much the question only kubes can answer and the whole reason for the thread. was the short dumpoffs protecting week qb play or week oline play. we can debate all we want but only kubes knows. and i think he will tell us by either keeping carr or letting him go.
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Old 01-02-2007   #16
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

Im pretty sure DC is told what to do but as a QB you have the option to hot route your receivers and check off the defense thats why you watch game film. If you notice something in their defense audible or hot route a receiver or back.
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Old 01-02-2007   #17
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

Carr's first 3 yrs--avg 39 completions over 20 yds
next 2 yrs--avg 24 " " "
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Old 01-02-2007   #18
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

It sounds like the consensus is as follows:

1. Carr needs to sit in the pocket to excel.

2. Opposing teams are going to pressure him.

3. Our line can not resist the pressure.

Therefore, we need the following:

1. A quarterback who can perform well under pressure and/or scramble.

or

2. An offensive line that can prevent the pass rush.

Perhaps, through coaching, we can transform Carr into the option one, or perhaps, through coaching, we can transform our offensive line into the option two.

Otherwise, we need to acquire option one through the draft or free agency which might require trial and error, or we need to build option two through the draft and/or free agency which might require more than one player and trial and error.

We should find the problem area on which we can agree and identify the available solutions.

Now we can discuss the merits of possible solutions rather than possible problems which results in progress.
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Old 01-02-2007   #19
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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Originally Posted by Ibar_Harry View Post
I've said for a long time I believe Carr is doing exactly what he is told to do. Kubiak has said time and time again he does not allow his QB's any leaveway. He does not allow audibles and the play is of a designated nature. Many different looks, but basically the same play.
Equally talked about, but seldom discussed at any length is why our receivers seem not to be able to get separation from their defenders. A lot of problems start with the O-line and the running game.

The NFL learned a lot in the 1st season game that Carr played in when we beat the Cowboys. SD started that trend in the next game and it has been repeated over and over again. That was simply you can not let Carr sit in the pocket because he will beat you. Since that time every team has evoked that stategy and to this date the Texans have never really done anything to counter it. Folks, it is as simple as that.
Let me help you out and say that your right, more right then you know.
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Old 01-02-2007   #20
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Default Re: you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

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Let me help you out and say that your right, more right then you know.
Are you suggesting that Carr would excel if given more freedom on the field? If we agree that Carr need to sit in the pocket to excel and if we agree that opposing teams are not giving this to him and if we agree that our line is not giving this to him, then I do not see how giving Carr freedom will help.

Last edited by jdog; 01-02-2007 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Finishing thought...
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