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Old 12-19-2006   #1
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Default That O-Line......

...... we've got issues in several areas of this team. One of which, is the offensive line. We've had this issue since the beginning, and it doesn't appear to be getting any better.

I'd like to take this thread, and go through a few of the bad OL play.

In an effort to keep this thread clean..... and of interest to everyone, let's please refrain from mentioning any player that is not on the OL. TEs are fair game since a lot of their job is blocking.

There are two plays in particular that I'd like to talk about.

1) One of the two sacks in the second Qtr. the defender came up the middle of the line, and got to our QB. We looked to have a numbers advantage on the left side, with Owen, Salaam, & Pitts in to block.... and only one defender to account for. But as soon as the ball snapped, we were outnumbered three to one, as Owen & Pitts blocked(they really tackled him) Salaam, allowing Richard Seymour(I'm pretty sure) an unempeded path into our backfield.

2) Still in the second Qtr..... I formation, Twins formation to the right. At the snap, the fullback runs out into the field off the weakside. Dayne comes up and gets a good block on the rushing Linebacker.... You can see Pitts & Hogdon leak out to block(It's a screen).

Dayne comes off his Block.... catches the ball, then runs upfield. By the time you see Pitts again, he is laying on the ground, after trying to cut block a LB in the open field....... You see Hogdon in front of Dayne, and he tries to put a block on said linebacker..... Hogdon actually prevents the LB from making the play..... but the Lineman trailing Hogdon from the LOS has caught Dayne from behind, as the safety comes down to hit Dayne.

on play #1..... I know I can't prove it, but it looks like two people on our team conspired against the good will of the team....... I've suspected Pitts of this for some time, and wonder why he is still starting.

on play #2.... why would our 6'5" lineman be trying to cutblock a LB in the open field... Usually, it's the LB at an obvious size/power disadvantage who tries to cutblock the bigger, stronger lineman. But I believe Pitts wiffed on that play as well........ a strong accusation, but if you have the ability to go back and look, it will be plain as day.

I understand he has been a big part of us running so well off the right side(when we pull him)......... but the plays I've mentioned aren't the only ones I've seen this year, where Pitts is not playing his best, & he looks like he is missing blocks on purpose.
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Old 12-19-2006   #2
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Default Re: That O-Line......

ahem.....
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Old 12-19-2006   #3
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Default Re: That O-Line......

TK ... I won't leave you hanging . If we're getting rid of Carr to start anew ... I say Pitts and McKinney pack up also .

Those two have been here the whole time and if your gonna clean house ... clean house . Thats two players of one of the worst lines in history and they get paid pretty good .
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Old 12-19-2006   #4
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Default Re: That O-Line......

I'll go you one more. Why can't we get 1 yard on a crucial third down. 1 stinking yard. how many times have we seen this. Our offensive line has never been able to smash mouth our opponent.
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Old 12-19-2006   #5
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Default Re: That O-Line......

Sometimes it boils down to who wants that yard ... our guys have had made for 5 years now .
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Old 12-19-2006   #6
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Default Re: That O-Line......

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Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34 View Post
TK ... I won't leave you hanging . If we're getting rid of Carr to start anew ... I say Pitts and McKinney pack up also .

Those two have been here the whole time and if your gonna clean house ... clean house . Thats two players of one of the worst lines in history and they get paid pretty good .
I think we'd hang on to Pitts. He's given up a few plays, but he's done as well as any other guard would do on this line. I think if we solidify our two Tackle positions and maybe the Center position, we'd notice a night and day difference between 06 and 07.
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Old 12-19-2006   #7
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Default Re: That O-Line......

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Originally Posted by HOU-TEX View Post
I think we'd hang on to Pitts. He's given up a few plays, but he's done as well as any other guard would do on this line. I think if we solidify our two Tackle positions and maybe the Center position, we'd notice a night and day difference between 06 and 07.
OK.... maybe I'm being a little too coy about the situation, so I'll come out and say it.

He isn't missing a few plays... There are several plays throughout this year, that I have recorded(I din't record any of last years games, but I noticed them then as well), but the guy is missing blocks, and it looks to be on purpose.

At first, I thought he din't like David, or David said something in the huddle that rubbed him the wrong way, but on that running play I described, & several others like that, it looks like he is trying to miss.
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Old 12-19-2006   #8
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Default Re: That O-Line......

I looked at how OLs are built . NE has mid round picks ... they are'nt anything special on paper . They lost what was their best OL in Woody a couple of years ago ... they can plug in players and keep going .

I wonder how much Brady affects their OL . Does he make adjustments at the line ... I just can't see our line problems being just a lack of talent .
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Old 12-19-2006   #9
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Default Re: That O-Line......

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
OK.... maybe I'm being a little too coy about the situation, so I'll come out and say it.

He isn't missing a few plays... There are several plays throughout this year, that I have recorded(I din't record any of last years games, but I noticed them then as well), but the guy is missing blocks, and it looks to be on purpose.

At first, I thought he din't like David, or David said something in the huddle that rubbed him the wrong way, but on that running play I described, & several others like that, it looks like he is trying to miss.
You can have your opinion. I'll stick with mine. The whole conspiracy theory's kinda bogus to me.
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Old 12-19-2006   #10
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Default Re: That O-Line......

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Originally Posted by HOU-TEX View Post
I think we'd hang on to Pitts. He's given up a few plays, but he's done as well as any other guard would do on this line. I think if we solidify our two Tackle positions and maybe the Center position, we'd notice a night and day difference between 06 and 07.
Ha! I remember hearing this last year...

I think the Texans have to get a new Center. That doesn't come easily through FA (see: Flanagan), and Hodgdon isn't working out.

IMO, the Texans will keep the rest. The line will be Spencer/Pitts/New Center/Weary or McKinney/Winston

After a game and a half of play, I don't think they are ready to call Spencer a bust. However, the Texans could do some wheeling and dealing to get a Veteran LT in case Spencer is re-injured. Salaam did not fix the missing LT hole this year.

Flanagan will be retained as a backup, or he could be starting if the Center the Texans take is very raw, like Winston. I doubt that, though. I think one year of this crud was too much for Kubiak, and he is going to want an answer for the line.

I know I may be dragged through the streets for saying this, but my man Winston is looking good. He's a very raw rookie, and I think he is already playing better than Salaam (not saying much), but he is moving in the right direction and is going to make a great right tackle.

The guards are as good as you could expect. They are mediocre, which says a lot on this team, and there are too many issues to deal with replacing them.
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Old 12-19-2006   #11
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Default Re: That O-Line......

Ok it's not the coaching, we let go of Capers. It's not the scheme because we ditched the 3-4 and tossed out Palmer and Pendry. It's not the GM we let him go too. It's not Carr because now we are blaming the o-line.

How long licks does it take to get to the center of our problems? No pun intended.
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Old 12-19-2006   #12
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Default Re: That O-Line......

I'm with you guys.

The clean up starts with Chester Pitts and Steve McKinney. Those guys had all of the time to impose their will on the offensive line.

Carr, Pitts, and Mckinney just have never progressed!!!
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Old 12-19-2006   #13
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Default Re: That O-Line......

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Originally Posted by SESupergenius View Post
Ok it's not the coaching, we let go of Capers. It's not the scheme because we ditched the 3-4 and tossed out Palmer and Pendry. It's not the GM we let him go too. It's not Carr because now we are blaming the o-line.

How long licks does it take to get to the center of our problems? No pun intended.
See..... that's part of the problem right there. Just because I point out two plays where a particular player played poorly... or just did not do what they were supposed to, does not mean I am blaming that person...... or that I'm blaming the OL for anything.

2002, 2003, 2004.......... 2006 every year, we took steps to improve the OL.....

but the results are always the same...... that should make anyone think that we may have problems behind the line as well.
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Old 12-19-2006   #14
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Default Re: That O-Line......

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OK.... maybe I'm being a little too coy about the situation, so I'll come out and say it.

He isn't missing a few plays... There are several plays throughout this year, that I have recorded(I din't record any of last years games, but I noticed them then as well), but the guy is missing blocks, and it looks to be on purpose.

At first, I thought he din't like David, or David said something in the huddle that rubbed him the wrong way, but on that running play I described, & several others like that, it looks like he is trying to miss.

I find this interesting, because I have said over the past few years I did not want Wand playing next to Pitts. I though Pitts wanted the LT job. Its funny how you feel about someone and their actions, but I have not liked Pitts for a long time. May be I'm finally not the only one beginning to question Pitts. If you recall Kubiak pulled him and was talking about a 3 guard rotation. Where there is smoke there is fire.
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Old 12-19-2006   #15
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Default Re: That O-Line......

That O-Line IMO will be better and much improved for next year. Reasons are the rookies injured and non-injured will have a year under their belt under the new system. The vets will be evaluated and will stay, be traded, or FA. The FA soon will bring OL linemen to the table for selection. Then we have the draft that will probably bring in OL within the five rounds. All the time on these forums I read alot about this Carr removal he sucks theme after so many years and replacing him will do all the wonders for this team and turn a new page. There are several needs to fill. Who would have ever thought to have so many key year ending injuries for the first year new system. . IMO I've been a Houston fan since 65 and seen a few pages turned but well in this situation the franchise and fans must think tomorrow not yesteryear. With Kube and co.(that is the new page) and a first year with a revolving structure of a team that is almost half new in players we have to give them the reasonable time. I know once again many are saying yeah yeah yeah again and again and again but we as fans have burdened this franchise up and down but the coaches behind all these players just got here and they should be allowed the chance to work with what was given to them. Next year will probably be so much interesting in direction and production. OL, DL, CB, RB, and still have a grooming QB for the future.
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Old 12-19-2006   #16
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Default Re: That O-Line......

Its sad that this organization has done very little to resolve the O-line issues. Carr or not, this area still needs to be improved to get that easy 3rd and 1 or give WHOEVER is going to be back there more than 2.4 seconds (Texans average last year compared to the NFL League of 4.8 seconds) to scan the field, find a receiver and throw the ball.


Spencer was a good pick, Winston Im 50/50 on, but its time to grab a good Guard in Free Agency (Steinbach from the Bengals) and draft at least 4 O-lineman in this draft (Heck I say all picks and hope to get 2 decent guys).
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Old 12-19-2006   #17
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Default Re: That O-Line......

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
the guy is missing blocks, and it looks to be on purpose.
Pitts has said on several occassions over the years that he HATES playing guard because guards get beat up too much on the inside. He has said repeatedly that he's more comfortable playing LT.

Kubiak/ Sherman are trying to force a square peg into a round hole. They have not put Pitts in a position to succeed. They are blinded by their pre-conceived notions (i.e. Pitts looks like a guard, therefore guard must be his best position. Kind of like Ryan Leaf looked more like an NFL QB than Peyton Manning therefore Leaf must be the better NFL prospect)
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Old 12-19-2006   #18
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Default Re: That O-Line......

If hes missing blocks on purpose he needs to go!
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Old 12-19-2006   #19
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Default Re: That O-Line......

There was one other O-line play I noticed. It was on one of the sacks - either the first or second, and happened in the 1st quarter after NE had a 17-0 lead. New England blitzed two LBs, one on the right (outside Winston), one on the middle/right between their NT and DE. On the left, Salaam blocked the DE and Pitts just stood around with no one to block. Hodgdon took the NT, the guard (McKinney? - I'll assume so) gave a quick block on the DE, then released him to the outside and blocked the inside LB. Winston blocked the outside LB, and while blocking him also got a hand on the DE after McKinney released him, but just barely slowed him up - the DE ran right through and sacked Carr, who was still dropping back.

I don't know enough about blocking, but something definitely went wrong there with the blitz pickup. It seemed like everyone was doing what they intended, and given the people that each person blocked, there's not much more that could have been done. So it makes me think that the blocking assignments were wrong. I'd love to hear from someone who knows about how this should work:
- Is it the center's responsibility to make the assignments? - in this case it seems it would be Hodgdon's fault.
- Does each player sort of react situationally depending on what they see? - in this case, it might be a coaching problem.
- Should Pitts have done something once he realized he had no one to block directly (e.g. shifted to the right), or is he supposed to just stay there in case.
- Is the QB supposed to tell them who to block? (I'm not trying to turn this into a Carr thread - I'm genuinely curious).
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Old 12-20-2006   #20
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Default Re: That O-Line......

Yeah..... on that one, David motioned the tightend to the right..... after the tightend motioned, the Pats called off their blitz.... after seeing that, David motioned Dayne out of the backfield. After that, the Pats called a different Blitz. Winston noticed it, you can see him point out the LB....

At this point, I believe, Hogdon or David should have acknowledged what Winston pointed out, but neither made it apparrent that they saw what Winston saw.

If they had called it, the OL would have all moved to that side, picking up a guy on their right, everyone would have been accounted for. Pitts standing there doing nothing is what he was supposed to do if no one called those blitzers.

If we assume David was on the ball, and noticed it, he would've acknowleged the free blitzer, if the reciever was aware, he would have ran a hot route to expose the inherant weakness of that particular blitz.

Weary(I'm pretty sure that was Weary) & Winston did a fair job of chipping the DE..... it wasn't a free run to the QB.

At the very least, had David noticed what Winston was pointing out just 8 feet from David's head, he should have called a timeout.

That was great scheming by the Pats......

& I think we should have known better than to sit there so long before the snap, giving them so much time to shift & move, and confuse us. We really should have walked up to the line, and snapped the ball before they figured out what was going on. Dayne was killing them anyway, we should have kept them on their heels.
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