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Old 11-27-2006   #1
NATHANHALE
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Default GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

First, since 2004 (2nd half after Carr's great first half) when the the down hill spiral of Caper's Texans demise started, we've been told that our 'vertical' passing game went into the 'dumpster' because opponents began 'game planning' against us with 'cover 2.' Second, when Kubiak was asked on his AM Radio Show on 11/27, how do you counter the cover2?--his answer was by running the ball.......

I'm confused. We lacked a lot of things under Capers but we had a running game. Many posters-to this day-still can not understand what happened in mid 2004 when the Texans went from becoming a 'winning' team to falling back to a loser that year, with the final debacle loss that year to the worse team in the NFL, the Browns. Why?,,,the Cover 2.

OK, so here's the confusion. Kubiak says we can't have a vertical passing attack because we don't have a rushing attack that gets respect. And, we can't sustain 12-15 play drives with a short passing game.

Like in '04 when we had a rushing attack, we've had games in '06--though not many--when we were able to run but still did not throw the ball down field...

Every week, teams come up with ways to 'game plan' against us that allow them to 'exploit' our weaknesses and 'minimize' our strengths--right?...so why can't we do the same to them?

IMO, we have some 'very good' foot ball minds on this board--posters who can offer 'viable' reasons for why things have happened and alternatives to change/improve those things. JMO, but our 'biggest' problem as a team is scoring points. And to take this thought further, this problem is compounded by our 'weak' game planning, including half time adjustments that leave us with 'horrible' results in the 3rd qtr. Too, most of our 'great' passing stats have come from 'garbage time' in the 4th qtr when the game has already been decided...

Kubiak is suppose to be an 'offensive guru,' a genius-if you will. I know we have personnel 'short comings' and injuries-so does every other team-but why aren't we getting/seeing the benefits of Kubiak's years of experience? Why is he not coming up with 'creative' game plans that exploit the good/bad of 'us versus them?'

IMO, a team doesn't just beat you because of 'better' players--this is where 'upsets' come into play--but also by 'effective' game planning...and, yes, by execution of that game plan. But, our game planning IMO needs some "nuts and bolts"...aka, some 'fire power,' some creativity...whatever it takes to win is kind of hollow if there 'ain't no ammo in the gun' or 'gas in the tank.' JMO, but we've been out of 'gas' and 'bullets' for too long.........:brickwall :brickwall
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Old 11-27-2006   #2
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

Let's see, on a good day a WR can get 40 yards in ~4.3 seconds without pads on. Probably about 4.6 with them on. That's on a good day and with a guy with AJs speed. If you have line that can only be counted on to hold guys out for 2-2.5 seconds that says the max that the WR can get is ~20 yards. Now, add in a chuck at the line a zig or two in the route and your down to 10-15 yards MAX and much less for guys that aren't as fast as AJ. OK, now, hold in 1-2 guys for additional blocking at the LOS so that you can consistantly get that 2-2.5 seconds. That means we have 2-3 guys in the pattern. Those 2-3 guys are typically being covered by 4-6 guys by the defense. Pretty much doubled up all around. I saw more than one play yesterday that even OD was double covered. All of that makes it tough to get open. What you get are short routes and quick dump offs because the O-line can't be counted on to hold the defensive players out. Add to that a running game that is one in name only and a non-exsistant seconday and it makes for what we have....a 3-8 team.
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Old 11-27-2006   #3
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

OK. Kubiak pretty much kept the same OL, so I guess he wasn't expecting to do much this year--heck, he can't even install schemes, since he has no way to use a verticle pasing game--makes a person wonder why he chamged the WR's since he can't get anything but dump-offs to them...heck, we oughtta just raise the surrender flag and be done with ---can't run, can't throw down field and-now- Kubiak says we can't sustain drives with a short passing game!!!!!!!!!!!!!....why do we bother????
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Old 11-27-2006   #4
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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Originally Posted by NATHANHALE View Post
JMO, but our 'biggest' problem as a team is scoring points.
Totally agree with you, the Texans on average since 2002, average about 16 points a game over about any time period you want to slice it up to. Bottom line, it is tough to win NFL games with points like that unless you have a real strong defense. Interestingly, the best year the Texans had was 2004, which was probably one of the better years defensively.

As to your question about throwing downfield, you need a QB that can make tough throws and quality receivers that can make tough catches. Before I get deeper into that, someone mentioned earlier that if your QB doesn't have enough time to throw deep passes because of offensive line problems, you can't throw downfield. That really doesn't tell the whole story. If a defense isn't concerned about the deep ball, it isn't going to matter the players on your offensive line. Ask yourself this question on this topic, is it easier for an All-Pro offensive line to make a marginal QB look good or an All-Pro QB make an offensive line look good? The latter is easier to achieve in today's NFL. Besides, with 32 teams in the league, a salary cap, and free agency, a team isn't going to be able to stack marquee players on the offensive line. At some point a rookie or free agent will be playing on the offensive line. Look around the league and you will see that.

The single most important ingredient to an NFL team on offense is the QB. That is why he is paid the most and why Kubiak said "As David Carr goes, so does the Texans." To be successful in the NFL, you need to be able to succeed with less, not more!

As for throwing downfield, I don't see Carr throwing over zone coverage down the deep middle part of the field, preferably between the hashes. When he does try it, the linebacker usually tips the ball for an incompletion. IMO, that is the single biggest reason why the Texans offense has problems. Defenses don't have to cover the entire part of the field, all they have to do is keep receivers in front of them because the short passes will be taken if given and bring the safeties on run support because you don't have to worry about the deep middle parts of the field.

A successful offense is a ying and yang thing. Over and over, we hear if you can't run, you can't pass. But, if defenses doen't think you can pass, what are they going to do, stop the other facet of your offense, which is the run.

The problems on offense rest solely on Kubiak and Carr. I am amazed that so many people expect the offensive line to provide perfect protection, running backs have 100 yard games with no fumbles, wide receivers can't drop one ball, and we can't expect David Carr take overall responsibility for the offense.
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Old 11-27-2006   #5
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

We could sustain drives with short passes if our WR & TE run past the first down marker ie say 3&4 they run their routes 5+ yards = 1st Down!



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Old 11-27-2006   #6
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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Originally Posted by edo783 View Post
Let's see, on a good day a WR can get 40 yards in ~4.3 seconds without pads on. Probably about 4.6 with them on. That's on a good day and with a guy with AJs speed. If you have line that can only be counted on to hold guys out for 2-2.5 seconds that says the max that the WR can get is ~20 yards. Now, add in a chuck at the line a zig or two in the route and your down to 10-15 yards MAX and much less for guys that aren't as fast as AJ. OK, now, hold in 1-2 guys for additional blocking at the LOS so that you can consistantly get that 2-2.5 seconds. That means we have 2-3 guys in the pattern. Those 2-3 guys are typically being covered by 4-6 guys by the defense. Pretty much doubled up all around. I saw more than one play yesterday that even OD was double covered. All of that makes it tough to get open. What you get are short routes and quick dump offs because the O-line can't be counted on to hold the defensive players out. Add to that a running game that is one in name only and a non-exsistant seconday and it makes for what we have....a 3-8 team.
Ding ding ding! we have a winner! The offensive line play trickles down through everything. On this team's best days, the O-line is inconsistent and therefore, the offense is inconsistent. On its worst days ... well, we won't go there.

Offensive line > all else on offense.
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Old 11-27-2006   #7
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan View Post
The problems on offense rest solely on Kubiak and Carr. I am amazed that so many people expect the offensive line to provide perfect protection, running backs have 100 yard games with no fumbles, wide receivers can't drop one ball, and we can't expect David Carr take overall responsibility for the offense.
No one expects the O-line to provide perfect protection. Providing a solid pocket with consistency would be good, however. There might be four other teams in the NFL with lines as bad as ours and their records all reflect it.
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Old 11-27-2006   #8
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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Ding ding ding! we have a winner! The offensive line play trickles down through everything. On this team's best days, the O-line is inconsistent and therefore, the offense is inconsistent. On its worst days ... well, we won't go there.

Offensive line > all else on offense.
I think you guys are wrong!!!

If the offensive line was more important, then it wouldn't matter who is the quarterback on any team, including David Carr!!!

To have an effective pass play the following things have to be done effectively in order:

1. Good playcalling
2. QB makes correct reads
3. Receiver runs correct route
4. Offensive line provides protection
5. QB throws to open receiver and at the right spot
6. Receiver catches the ball

As you can see the offensive line has very little direct impact on throwing the football. Just because they do their job effectively doesn't guarantee success!

The way you guys are talking and slapping each other on the back, you really don't need a QB or WR. Yet, the QB position is the highest paid position in the league. How do you explain that?

The two most important ingredients to a successful offense in today's NFL with free agency and a salary cap, is the head coach and QB. The better those two are, the easier it is to hide the other warts on the team. If it is the other way around, it is very hard to hide warts of a QB or head coach, which describes the Texans and the Raiders!
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Old 11-27-2006   #9
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
No one expects the O-line to provide perfect protection. Providing a solid pocket with consistency would be good, however. There might be four other teams in the NFL with lines as bad as ours and their records all reflect it.
No offensive line provides perfect protection and never will. That is why pocket presence is so important. A quarterback's play is a matter of inches and fractions of a second.

Name the four teams that are so bad, and let's inspect who the QB's are?

Deal?
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Old 11-27-2006   #10
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan View Post
I think you guys are wrong!!!

If the offensive line was more important, then it wouldn't matter who is the quarterback on any team, including David Carr!!!

To have an effective pass play the following things have to be done effectively in order:

1. Good playcalling
2. QB makes correct reads
3. Receiver runs correct route
4. Offensive line provides protection
5. QB throws to open receiver and at the right spot
6. Receiver catches the ball

As you can see the offensive line has very little direct impact on throwing the football. Just because they do their job effectively doesn't guarantee success!

The way you guys are talking and slapping each other on the back, you really don't need a QB or WR. Yet, the QB position is the highest paid position in the league. How do you explain that?

The two most important ingredients to a successful offense in today's NFL with free agency and a salary cap, is the head coach and QB. The better those two are, the easier it is to hide the other warts on the team. If it is the other way around, it is very hard to hide warts of a QB or head coach, which describes the Texans and the Raiders!
And not one bit of that works if the O-line can't keep anyone out long enough for anything to develope. It wont matter what the play calling is, who the QB is (see Manning last year) how good the recievers. Not one bit will work if the line doesn't. However, with a good real line, just about any of it will work regardless of the calls or who is pulling the trigger or who is running routes.
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Old 11-27-2006   #11
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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And not one bit of that works if the O-line can't keep anyone out long enough for anything to develope. It wont matter what the play calling is, who the QB is (see Manning last year) how good the recievers. Not one bit will work if the line doesn't. However, with a good real line, just about any of it will work regardless of the calls or who is pulling the trigger or who is running routes.
Obvisouly, there needs to be protection, but there is a hierachy of needs.

But, let's assume you are right, then we should go cheap on the head coach, QB, wide recievers, and we don't even need a running game. We should just plow every dollar into the offensive line because if you have that everything will work. Am I understanding you correctly?

Another question, why do we need David Carr at his current contract level if as you put it "with a good real line, just about any of it will work regardless of the calls or who is pulling the trigger or who is running routes." It seems that Carr is grossly overpaid! Actually, we don't need him!

The most important thing about passing the passing the football is getting the ball downfield. Only one guy on the offensive line touches the ball and that is only the center during the snap. You see my point?

The offensive line is important, but it isn't the be all end all. A smart QB with great pocket presence can make a marginal line look pretty good. But a poor QB with a great line probably won't get the job done.

Besides, with 32 teams, a salary cap, and free agency, no team is going to be able to stack talent on the offensive line or at any position for that matter.

You guys are just crazy!
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Old 11-27-2006   #12
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan View Post
No offensive line provides perfect protection and never will. That is why pocket presence is so important. A quarterback's play is a matter of inches and fractions of a second.

Name the four teams that are so bad, and let's inspect who the QB's are?

Deal?

go look at the elite QBs in the league and then look at how great their o lines are. then, look at a game in which the opposing defense effectively pressures that QB, you'll find more often than not that the QB has what is considered a terrible game. Example: Patriots blitz schemes have effectively applied pressure to Peyton manning and his worst games as a pro have come in those games.

when a quarterback is "making his reads" and when a WR is "running his correct routes" they have to be supremely confident that they will have the appropriate amount of time to do so. They can't be second guessing whether or not their offensive line will allow them the time to properly execute. can you imagine a scenario in which the skill players on offense firmly believe on every play they won't have time to their job. I can....it's the Houston Texans.

there is a minimum requirement for execution and 2 seconds in the pocket does not meet that requirement.
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Old 11-27-2006   #13
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

Seattle, Pitt, NE, Indy, Denver, Chi, cincinatti

all playoff teams last year. if you compiled a list of the top ten o lines in football all of those teams would make the list. there is a direct correlation between controlling the line of scrimmage and success as a football team
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Old 11-27-2006   #14
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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go look at the elite QBs in the league and then look at how great their o lines are. then, look at a game in which the opposing defense effectively pressures that QB, you'll find more often than not that the QB has what is considered a terrible game. Example: Patriots blitz schemes have effectively applied pressure to Peyton manning and his worst games as a pro have come in those games.

when a quarterback is "making his reads" and when a WR is "running his correct routes" they have to be supremely confident that they will have the appropriate amount of time to do so. They can't be second guessing whether or not their offensive line will allow them the time to properly execute. can you imagine a scenario in which the skill players on offense firmly believe on every play they won't have time to their job. I can....it's the Houston Texans.

there is a minimum requirement for execution and 2 seconds in the pocket does not meet that requirement.
You didn't name the 4 worst teams to evaulate the QB.

But, I will follow you in the direction you want to go.

So, let's talk about Manning, who you state as an example.

I believe it is safe to assume you are saying Manning is really more of product of the offensive line than his play. Manning has been in the league for 9 years, and I am sure he has had many guys block for him over that time. And I am also very sure not all of those guys have been excellent players. Probably a few have cut or released by the Colts. Yet, year after year the Colts do well. But, it has nothing to do with Manning and the percise route running of Harrison and Wayne coupled with great play calling? No, it is all about the offensive line? Is that what you are saying.
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Old 11-27-2006   #15
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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Seattle, Pitt, NE, Indy, Denver, Chi, cincinatti

all playoff teams last year. if you compiled a list of the top ten o lines in football all of those teams would make the list. there is a direct correlation between controlling the line of scrimmage and success as a football team
I thought we were going to discuss the 4 worst teams?

Okay, I'll play...

You can take New England, Indy, and Cincinatti out of the list. Those teams have top tier QBs, which is my point.

Seattle played in a weak division last year and had an easy schedule. Take them off the list. Besides, they lost there main offensive line guy because of the salary cap and free agency, which is my point. You are not going to be able to stack talent. You have to be to succeed with less.

Chicago, with that defense, any QB can make the playoffs in that division while playing in the NFC. Off the list for now!

So that leaves Denver and Pittsburgh. You may have a little bit of point on those two. We'll see what happens with Jake benched. As for Big Ben, I think his motorcycle accident and surgery have seriously affected him and his decision making. Take Big Ben off the list!

So that leaves Denver as a maybe? We'll have to see how things fare. But, keep this in mind, Shannan didn't win his first playoff game without Elway until last year? Why do you think it took so long? I guess he needed to improve the offensive line with your rationale?
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Old 11-27-2006   #16
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

take a look at peyton's career stats. he has been sacked more than 25 times in ONE season of his career. he hasn't had a season in the past four or five years where he has been sacked 20 times. and we all know that he has ZERO mobility. no amount of "pocket awareness" can account for the fact that he plays upright all the time.

The point is.....Peyton Manning does not ever ever ever think twice about whether or not he will have the time he needs to execute a play. and his receivers can run those beautiful routes knowing full well their QB is standing back there waiting to fire it in there. when teams blitz, their backs and tight ends pick it up no problem, but when they don't he becomes as pedestrian as the next guy.

I know full well Manning is heads and shoulders above any other QB, but my point is he couldn't operate anywhere near the level he does if the players in front of him dont' meet the minimum requirement which is to provide him, at the very least, enough time for him to throw the ball to the intended receiver.

Carr and his wideouts have no idea from one play to the next whether or not that silk curtain up front will hold or the rookie RB will pick up his assignment etc. Even in games where the line plays well, they're not to be trusted. The problem is then compounded by opposing defensive coordinators realizing that the texans can't pick up a blitz, so they bring everything they got, put a spotter on the safety valve and there is no way out of it for the texans.
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Old 11-27-2006   #17
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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take a look at peyton's career stats. he has been sacked more than 25 times in ONE season of his career. he hasn't had a season in the past four or five years where he has been sacked 20 times. and we all know that he has ZERO mobility. no amount of "pocket awareness" can account for the fact that he plays upright all the time.

The point is.....Peyton Manning does not ever ever ever think twice about whether or not he will have the time he needs to execute a play. and his receivers can run those beautiful routes knowing full well their QB is standing back there waiting to fire it in there. when teams blitz, their backs and tight ends pick it up no problem, but when they don't he becomes as pedestrian as the next guy.

I know full well Manning is heads and shoulders above any other QB, but my point is he couldn't operate anywhere near the level he does if the players in front of him dont' meet the minimum requirement which is to provide him, at the very least, enough time for him to throw the ball to the intended receiver.

Carr and his wideouts have no idea from one play to the next whether or not that silk curtain up front will hold or the rookie RB will pick up his assignment etc. Even in games where the line plays well, they're not to be trusted. The problem is then compounded by opposing defensive coordinators realizing that the texans can't pick up a blitz, so they bring everything they got, put a spotter on the safety valve and there is no way out of it for the texans.
Mobility and pocket awareness are not related. Just because a guy has mobility, does not mean he has pocket awareness, and vice versa.

Do you think it is the same guys over the past few years that have blocked for Peyton Manning? Can you even name those guys? Maybe even a rookie has blocked for him.

I am going to go through the Indy roster over the past few years and see who has blocked for him. I am sure there have been several changes and there are probably some dubious suspects have played there as well as lineman.

My point is Peyton Manning is more important than than any offensive lineman I can think of. Do you think otherwise?

If Manning isn't that important, why not get rid of him, save money, and let the offensive line prove they are the reason.

Hopefully you are beginning to see my point.
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Old 11-27-2006   #18
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

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Originally Posted by Superstar View Post
Even when the offense is doing well the QB does horrible. How about the Giants game for example? The offensive line did adequate they allowed no sacks, but the problem was we still couldn't score any points. Was that the offensive line's fault? it was the QB fault for not throwing to his wide recievers.
Great example.

The Buffalo game is good example too. The offense still couldn't score points in the second half and only got 41 yards and one 1st down in the 4th quarter. The running game was on fire and Carr was chasing the consecutive completion percentage in the 4th quarter, but it really was meaningless.
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Old 11-27-2006   #19
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

The two best OL last year were the Seahawhs and Steelers . They both had average QBs and a good running game . Anyone know what G Steve Hutchinson signed for this offseason ? You can't pay everyone .

The Colts OL is not considered elite ... Manning does'nt hold the ball , just like Marino he knows where he wants to go and what plan b is .
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Old 11-28-2006   #20
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Default Re: GAME PLANNING-Please Explain

After the last two losses, is anyone else becoming unimpressed with Kubiak? The 3rd and two against the Bills was a forgivable mistake. He's a 1st year head coach, and you can see how he wants the ball in Carr's hands to get the win.

But after the loss against the Jets, it seems that our team is too dependent on a running game that isn't very good. I'm sorry, but if it isn't working, it isn't working! Do something else! You're not in Denver anymore; you can't count on a running game week in and week out. I thought you were running a WCO!
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