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Old 11-13-2007   #161
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
Well there were several problems with that team. And I'm not saying he was a top 5 potential QB. At the same time, its well documented that he was told who to throw the ball to. He wasn't checking down from one receiver to the next etc. when he first came into the league. I think the coaching was horrible because not only did his decision making get worse, so did his accuracy and his touch. Go back and watch some of his early games. He was making rookie mistakes. He was holding onto the ball too long, but he was also throwing passes on target.

I remember several occasions early in his career when he made football decisions. By the end here, he was running for his life. There was a game against the Rams, I think, his rookie year when he was getting drug down in the end zone and managed to stretch the ball out and get it over the goal line as he was going down. That is a smart football play. I'm not saying he was a rocket scientist, but rather that I watched both his physical talents degrade and his IQ diminished every year. We talked bout him developing, but when a QB leaves a place and is a worse QB than when he arrived as a rookie.... that's not good.

Mike
I was talking about this to Infantry and Double Barrel the last few days...everyone wants to villify his old coaches for making his game plans mickey mouse and filling them full of hitch passes and limited reads. Fast forward to today and several people are trying to wrap their minds around Carr "regressing". I don't think he has regressed at all. I think that we had to structure little rinky dink high school game plans for him and keep him in a safe area where he could accomplish what he could so he didn't hurt the team. Fox hasn't scaled back Jake Delhomme's offense and Carr has been just miserable. He hasn't been protected (via scheme) and we all see how bad he looks when the offense isn't full of hitch passes and sideline mortar lob passes with nothing in the middle of the field or in the intermediate areas. Capers, Palmer, Kubiak and everyone else scaled back the offense to accommodate Carr's miserable game. Fox doesn't look like he knows Carr's limitations as much as Kubiak and capers did and it shows. Carr is a walking concussion in a full blown NFL offense.
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Old 11-13-2007   #162
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

Are we still making excuses for Carr? Really?

We can make a laundry list a mile long of things that David did to hurt himself. And plenty of good QBs have had some bad coaches at one point or another.

Why is this guy the only person who gets a pass on personal responsibility?
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Old 11-13-2007   #163
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread



Just because I am bored.

Oh and I never posted in this thread, which I have to admit seems odd.
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Old 11-13-2007   #164
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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I don't think we "ruined" him...it's possible he was bad the whole time here. I was villified back in 2003 for just stating what I was observing. If you notice, I was pointing out problems with his game long before most of our fans were even trying to acknowledge he had any.
I think the best clue for what was to come was Carr in the Senior Bowl . He played 3 series ... !st series ended when the ball was batted down . 2nd series he was sacked twice . 3rd drive stalled and he was done for the day .

Patrick Ramsey and Rohan Davie came in and put up a total of 40 something points . Carr never came back in .

You can read this by googling David Carr's senior Bowl diary .
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Old 11-13-2007   #165
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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I was talking about this to Infantry and Double Barrel the last few days...everyone wants to villify his old coaches for making his game plans mickey mouse and filling them full of hitch passes and limited reads. Fast forward to today and several people are trying to wrap their minds around Carr "regressing". I don't think he has regressed at all. I think that we had to structure little rinky dink high school game plans for him and keep him in a safe area where he could accomplish what he could so he didn't hurt the team. Fox hasn't scaled back Jake Delhomme's offense and Carr has been just miserable. He hasn't been protected (via scheme) and we all see how bad he looks when the offense isn't full of hitch passes and sideline mortar lob passes with nothing in the middle of the field or in the intermediate areas. Capers, Palmer, Kubiak and everyone else scaled back the offense to accommodate Carr's miserable game. Fox doesn't look like he knows Carr's limitations as much as Kubiak and capers did and it shows. Carr is a walking concussion in a full blown NFL offense.
Conversely after our change at the position, have we really improved that much? Sure from a sack standpoint, those numbers are down... Is the QB play that much better though? Schaub has been better in terms of awareness.. but his accuracy... terrible. Don't throw percentages at me.. watch games... is the ball placement right? Not even close.

Saying he is without fault is obviously wrong. I'm not suggesting he was great.. we were all wrong about that. But he did regress. You're right, they never should have scaled down the playbook. He didn't do the things to prepare either. Then again, why didn't we require it of him? Why didn't Capers inundate him with a ton of work? We forget, this was a KID when he was handed the keys to the franchise. We made some bad decisions as a franchise. I never thought he should have started from day one. I felt like we shouldn't have simplified the offense for him. We made mistakes in how we handled him. Is he responsible for sucking now? Sure. Does that mean we didn't make any mistakes? Hell no. Oh and we (ok so the F/O not us personally) need to learn from that. You can sit there and hate the guy, love the guy I don't care...

Vilify the coaches? Maybe I'm too hard on them for that but if you take a 22 year old throw him a tonne of money and hand him the keys to the franchise... I think you have to prepare him for it. Is he responsible for not going in extra hours? Sure... Is it his fault he didn't mature? Yes... Should he have asked for extra work to get ready? Of course. If I'm running the franchise though, I definitely place alot of that at the HCs place as well. That's the guy who you brought in because he is "the consummate professional". I expect him to pass some of that on.


Label me a Carr apologist. I just want to learn from our mistakes. Oh and go back and look at my record. If I think I'm wrong I'll say it. I don't mind it. I'll even go back and critique myself if I'm way off. Also its not like I'm a huge "homer" fan. I think I'm as objective as anyone on this board and have no idea why I would change that for one player.


By the way though. Capers first QB? Kerry Collins.

Vin.. hope this doesn't come off angry... read Tulip's little "when does he take responsibility" comment and am tired of defending my stance that its possible to analyze the mistakes we made with out being complete apologist.


Mike
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Old 11-13-2007   #166
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

As for the improvement in the QB situation, try looking at things like the increase in Andre's YPC or the fact that Andre Davis has caught multiple 40 yard catches (with no/little yards after catch). Anyone with eyes can see that the QB situation has drastically improved over this season. Does Schaub make his mistakes and do I notice them? Heck yeah. But that doesn't mean that I'm not still relieved over the Schaub trade. What would have been the better alternative?
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Old 11-13-2007   #167
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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I don't think we "ruined" him...it's possible he was bad the whole time here. I was villified back in 2003 for just stating what I was observing. If you notice, I was pointing out problems with his game long before most of our fans were even trying to acknowledge he had any.
You also think VY is a good QB. Your batting .500, thats nothing to be ashamed of.
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Old 11-13-2007   #168
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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You also think VY is a good QB. Your batting .500, thats nothing to be ashamed of.
Funny how some fans are amazingly inconsistent...they want to give Carr 5 years to develop but can't stand to see Young get 2. You probably think he has to play at a pro bowl level right away because he isn't on your team...well, it doesn't work like that. I don't sit in those Young threads and pound away that he is all that in his sophomore year so why bring that up with me? I'm not an apologist for Young and I am not squatting on this board or any other board trying to convince you he is having a good year. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Old 11-13-2007   #169
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Funny how some fans are amazingly inconsistent...they want to give Carr 5 years to develop but can't stand to see Young get 2. You probably think he has to play at a pro bowl level right away because he isn't on your team...well, it doesn't work like that. I don't sit in those Young threads and pound away that he is all that in his sophomore year so why bring that up with me? I'm not an apologist for Young and I am not squatting on this board or any other board trying to convince you he is having a good year. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
C'mon now, that was funny. Admit it, you smiled a little.

OK so maybe not funny to you but I laughed.

Maybe my wife is right, maybe I am not that funny.

Na.
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Old 11-13-2007   #170
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

ok, I'll admit that you're hilarious.
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Old 11-13-2007   #171
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Are you one of those people that can not accept when the masses admit they were wrong....

Nah - just one of those people that laugh at those that go back just far enough to prove they were right and no farther. Pretty revisionist. Unless I am to believe that everyone knew Carr was bad from day one.
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Old 11-13-2007   #172
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

After I made a fool of myself defending Carr for 2 and a half years, I've tried to make it a point to not comment about players and their abilities untill I learn some more in depth football knowledge. I can't apologize enough to people like Doug from the Woodlands a.k.a. Second Honeymoon for trying to help me escape my blind homerism.



That said, I think Faggins sucks
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Old 11-13-2007   #173
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Nah - just one of those people that laugh at those that go back just far enough to prove they were right and no farther. Pretty revisionist. Unless I am to believe that everyone knew Carr was bad from day one.
I think alot of people knew and just didn't want to admit it, seeing as how he was supposed to lead the franchise. There's a little bit of a homer in every fan. Anyone could have noticed Carr's glaring faults before he even took a snap in the NFL. His poor mechanics, the way he feels imaginary pressure, the way he locks onto one receiver, the way he is reluctant to throw the ball more than 3 yards down the field. Carr, despite good college stats, was never a phenomenal NFL prospect.
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Old 11-13-2007   #174
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

I think the biggest problem was that one of his greatest fans was Bob McNair .
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Old 11-13-2007   #175
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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As for the improvement in the QB situation, try looking at things like the increase in Andre's YPC or the fact that Andre Davis has caught multiple 40 yard catches (with no/little yards after catch). Anyone with eyes can see that the QB situation has drastically improved over this season. Does Schaub make his mistakes and do I notice them? Heck yeah. But that doesn't mean that I'm not still relieved over the Schaub trade. What would have been the better alternative?
As for the "improvement" at QB position. It has been marginal. And by saying that, I was calling for Schaub (even as a "Carr excuser") before last season was over. I wasn't blind to the fact that Carr wasn't the answer. That something had to change. Other than AJ and Mathis who have a combined 15 catches, nobody on our team has a decent YAC average. Oh and its going down. I love Schaub but we have yet to fix any of the problems that I believe ensured that Carr would not succeed. I think that many of Carr's problems were brought on by poor protection. We have a better QB no doubt. I agree with that. But we're not getting much better play out of the QB. Know why? We still haven't fixed the protection.

Its possible to acknowledge that Carr was handled horribly, hold him responsible for the failures that were his AND evaluate what went wrong that the Texans could change.

Mike
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Old 11-14-2007   #176
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

What I find funny is this: Roughly halfway through last season, MOST of the fans on this thread were actually very satisfied with David Carr.

I saw the words "improving" among other words, with even Kaiser Toro saying that he saw "improvement" in Carr. Not saying that KT was endorsing DC or anything...but it's in black & white where KT says he saw DC improve a little.

But the over-arching issue here is this: No amount of improvement that DC made, or will make as a Panther QB, matters.

He doesn't have the "it" factor. I know our line is marginal, but Schaub and Sage have shown they can work around it. I think, to be honest, that our big chill we experienced between the Panthers game and up until the Oakland game, was due to NOT being able to run the ball.

If we run the ball, we instantly become a very good team all the way around: The pass seems to work well, we eat up the clock and keep opposing defenses on the field longer, and our own defense gets to rest ad I think they make more plays when they know it's not always "on them."

DC was the KING of the 3-and-out. Period. Whether it was fumbling, getting the ball batted down at the line, or simply being incapable of reading and reacting during a play...David was a drive killer.

Yes, he occasionally hit the home run ball. You're going to do that every now and then. It's possible to catch someone sleeping.

But I see two QBs (Sage and Schaub) who just seem to have something David didn't. It's a certain "acumen" whereby they are utilizing a logical sequence of critical thinking: They have a plan, and they are trying to follow it.

With David, it seems that the huddle breaks and he's already off the game plan. He's gone AWOL. He's made his mind up that the "called play" is not going to work. He's feeling, before the snap, as if HE is going to have to do something on his own to make it work.

I fault, mostly, the head coaching and playcalling for this--Those goobers had ZERO strategy. Kubiak and his staff are not top-notch yet...but they are leaps and bounds ahead of Capers. David learned early on that his best chances lay with HIM improvising: The tuck and run, the leap over the pile for the TD, the naked bootlegs near the goal line. David felt David was the best chance to win. Without DD, there's an element of undrstanding here. A productive running game sure seems to help everybody.

But all of this speculating as to the "why?" is not as important as this factor: Tom Brady led a Patriots team to their first Super Bowl win and I don't think that team was necessarily "stacked" with talent. Tom Brady has proven that Tom Brady is perhaps the biggest reason why the team is a perennial contender. He met Mr. Kraft in the Patriots parking lot at sunrise, after he had been selected very late in the draft, and walked up to the man and said, "I want you to know that you will not regret picking me."

That's it. No big rah-rah speech in front of the team. No fan fare and loud-mouthing, cocky show-off stuff. Just a hard-nosed guy who vowed to be what he knew he was.

Contrast this to David Carr: A guy who wears gloves because he might get germs from the center's boody. A guy who is well-gelled and always having "fun" in the NFL. A guy who almost EVERY teammate has said just leaves the facility and goes home...not staying and trying to build a rapport with his fellow warriors.

We can talk all year about this. We can speculate the "what ifs" until we get hand cramps from typing.

Fact is this: David Carr is not going to make it.

And I don't think that history needs to be re-written with little footnotes that say "*Please note that David Carr would have been a Hall of Fame Quarterback had he been provided a better offensive line."

That, IMO, is an insult to the basic football intelligence of the ordinary fan.

David Carr has not, and will not, possess the "it" factor that allows him to take a team onto his shoulders and make them better.
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Old 11-14-2007   #177
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

Great post GP. Pretty much sums up how I feel about the guy.
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Old 11-14-2007   #178
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

*This is not a David Carr apologist post but rather an observation*

The other day Steve McKinney was talking to John and Lance about the horrible 2005 season. He was talking about how divisive Pendry was, and how Pendry almost left because of his lack of input in the offense. That it is a bad situation when the coaches can agree on things. And that the offense became really basic after Pendry was running it.

He wasn't an apologist for Palmer though. He said that Carr and McKinney privately talked about his concern about all the option routes in the offense. McKinney talked about how he was the only experienced guy on that line, playing a new position, yet Palmer had all these option routes that made Carr hold the ball until the WR decided where to make his break based on the positioning of the safety. McKinney said that with a completely developmental line, rookie QB, and inexperienced receivers, having all those option routes was a recipe for some very bad things.


Disclaimer: *Once again, I am not getting Carr off the hook but rather just stating this stuff for some historical completeness.*


As for Carr's last year performance, I think he played to the maximum of his potential under Kubiak, and Kubiak cut bait when he realized the extent of Carr's physical and mental limitations.
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Old 11-14-2007   #179
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Originally Posted by BSofA04 View Post
Great post GP. Pretty much sums up how I feel about the guy.
It's natural to try and figure out the "why?" behind everything.

It's human. We're a people who thrive on figuring out the problem.

But often, there's just no tangible explanation as to why certain players are just better than most others.

I tried to debate this topic a long time ago, and I actually felt that David was getting shafted the whole time he was here. And then one day, it just clicked for me: I was wrong. The guy is hopelessly lost. Forgot "why?"...it doesn't matter in the end.

Game over. Time to frame the jersey and hang it in the kids' gameroom. Time to look for the cushy broadcast analyst booth. David's pretty face will be gracing a TV set on Sundays, you can bank on it.
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Old 11-14-2007   #180
hollywood_texan
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
*This is not a David Carr apologist post but rather an observation*

The other day Steve McKinney was talking to John and Lance about the horrible 2005 season. He was talking about how divisive Pendry was, and how Pendry almost left because of his lack of input in the offense. That it is a bad situation when the coaches can agree on things. And that the offense became really basic after Pendry was running it.

He wasn't an apologist for Palmer though. He said that Carr and McKinney privately talked about his concern about all the option routes in the offense. McKinney talked about how he was the only experienced guy on that line, playing a new position, yet Palmer had all these option routes that made Carr hold the ball until the WR decided where to make his break based on the positioning of the safety. McKinney said that with a completely developmental line, rookie QB, and inexperienced receivers, having all those option routes was a recipe for some very bad things.


Disclaimer: *Once again, I am not getting Carr off the hook but rather just stating this stuff for some historical completeness.*


As for Carr's last year performance, I think he played to the maximum of his potential under Kubiak, and Kubiak cut bait when he realized the extent of Carr's physical and mental limitations.
Why is it that an offensive lineman understands this while it's happening and Carr can't:

A: Figure it out for himself and
B: Speak up and bring something too the table.

Carr's problem was either he didn't have the football brain or desire to win/do what it takes. It was probably both...

TC, you have clearly demonstrated with this historical perspective, that Carr was not a leader or take charge kind of guy at the Texans. Those are probably the single most important qualities of a QB.

My point is, it's stories like this that show Carr was so way in over his head. It was his career too, and he took no initiative to build his career at Houston outside of getting a haircut.
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