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Old 11-14-2007   #181
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
*This is not a David Carr apologist post but rather an observation*

The other day Steve McKinney was talking to John and Lance about the horrible 2005 season. He was talking about how divisive Pendry was, and how Pendry almost left because of his lack of input in the offense. That it is a bad situation when the coaches can agree on things. And that the offense became really basic after Pendry was running it.

He wasn't an apologist for Palmer though. He said that Carr and McKinney privately talked about his concern about all the option routes in the offense. McKinney talked about how he was the only experienced guy on that line, playing a new position, yet Palmer had all these option routes that made Carr hold the ball until the WR decided where to make his break based on the positioning of the safety. McKinney said that with a completely developmental line, rookie QB, and inexperienced receivers, having all those option routes was a recipe for some very bad things.


Disclaimer: *Once again, I am not getting Carr off the hook but rather just stating this stuff for some historical completeness.*


As for Carr's last year performance, I think he played to the maximum of his potential under Kubiak, and Kubiak cut bait when he realized the extent of Carr's physical and mental limitations.
eh, High School teams run option routes...its the foundation to the June Jones offense in Hawaii and the TT offense in Lubbock (College kids)....don't really buy it as an excuse. Palmer did well everywhere else he coached but he was a bad coach with Carr? Yeah, right.
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Old 11-14-2007   #182
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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eh, High School teams run option routes...its the foundation to the June Jones offense in Hawaii and the TT offense in Lubbock (College kids)....don't really buy it as an excuse. Palmer did well everywhere else he coached but he was a bad coach with Carr? Yeah, right.
Yeah, Palmer is the guy that helped bring Romo along and last I looked his game certainly wasn't hurt by meeting Chris Palmer
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Old 11-14-2007   #183
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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eh, High School teams run option routes...its the foundation to the June Jones offense in Hawaii and the TT offense in Lubbock (College kids)....don't really buy it as an excuse. Palmer did well everywhere else he coached but he was a bad coach with Carr? Yeah, right.
LZ said that Palmer had this same problem with the Browns--that Tim Couch took more abuse than he should have with the option routes.

The problem with the option routes as McKinney explained it is you have to wait until the receiver runs 15 yards before you know where to throw it, you are going to have problems when you have a baby offensive line, baby receivers and a baby QB--you just don't have time against NFL defenses.

When McKinney was talking about this, it wasn't a Carr apology but rather in response to LZ asking about Palmer's schemes hurting Couch and whether there were similar issues when Palmer was play calling for the Texans. Unfortunately, 1560 doesn't have the Podcast saved.

LZ is the last one to let Carr off the hook--he was just asking questions about Palmer and Pendry and the awful 2005 season.
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Old 11-14-2007   #184
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

sure "a" receiver may have to run 15 yards but you also have dump options and short routes. Palmer was fine with Bledsoe in his best years in NE, with Brunell's high flying Jaguar offense (one of the most explosive offenses in the NFL) and now with Romo....but his scheme takes a QB who can think. Couch had good to decent numbers and the Browns had miserable talent in their first two years (just look at their really awful expansion draft and real draft) but he injured his shoulder and really wasn't all that tough to begin with.
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Old 11-14-2007   #185
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

I heard that discussion as well, and McKinney did say that those were the reasons that the 2002 season was so rough. He said that Palmer did adjust the offense the following year with 3 step drops, etc.

McKinney also said that he thought Capers fired Palmer to try to "win back the fans". And that Pendry was in the middle (perhaps insinuating that Pendry was the cause) of a lot of tension and dissent amongst the coaching staff.

He also spent a lot of time discussing David Carr and Peyton Manning, and while not directly trying to compare/contrast, each story could easily show why their careers are so different.

He said Peyton would have 5 or 6 options to change to at the line of scrimmage from his rookie year. And he would change the call about 50% of them time. And his responsibilities increased over time. He also said that Peyton is completely obsessive about football and that's probably why he doesn't have children yet. He agreed with John and Lance that this obsession is what makes the difference in the end.

They also talked about leadership, the aggressive kind and the leading-by-example kind. McKinney acknowledged that in order for people to want to follow you, you have to work harder than everyone else.

David is who he is. If he just had more instinct and more athleticism, he may have made it a little farther than he did. Because the work ethic and the motivation just weren't there, he just never lived up to his hype. Hey, it was a weak draft.
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Old 11-14-2007   #186
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

this thread has to be the best of all time I GOT Carr's Back

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Old 11-14-2007   #187
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
The other day Steve McKinney was talking to John and Lance about the horrible 2005 season. He was talking about how divisive Pendry was, and how Pendry almost left because of his lack of input in the offense. That it is a bad situation when the coaches can agree on things. And that the offense became really basic after Pendry was running it.
Wow. I always said Pendry and politics did as much to hurt this team as anything; I'm surprised a player has finally come out and said it in public. That guy killed a good deal on potential in this team with his petty politics and favoritism.

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He wasn't an apologist for Palmer though. He said that Carr and McKinney privately talked about his concern about all the option routes in the offense. McKinney talked about how he was the only experienced guy on that line, playing a new position, yet Palmer had all these option routes that made Carr hold the ball until the WR decided where to make his break based on the positioning of the safety. McKinney said that with a completely developmental line, rookie QB, and inexperienced receivers, having all those option routes was a recipe for some very bad things.
Yep. On the surface Palmer's offense was pretty simple, but in play it was very complex - it required a lot of in-sync reading and reacting among the receivers and quarterbacks. The way I heard it, the only QB on the team that understood the nuances of the system was Dave Ragone. Too bad he never got a chance to try his hand on the field, as career after career was sacrificed on the alter of David Carr.
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Old 11-15-2007   #188
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

At first glance I thought this was an auction of Carr parts. I definitely wanted dibs on the gloves.

Those five years got medieval on Texan fan's arses. The Carr Age was full of futility, disease, high beer prices, no port a potties in the parking lot and a wandering horde of e-Thugs from the West, the Fresno 15.

Whether it is the Sage of Ames or Schaub under center our passing game is exponentially better.
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Old 11-15-2007   #189
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Originally Posted by Tulip View Post
I heard that discussion as well, and McKinney did say that those were the reasons that the 2002 season was so rough. He said that Palmer did adjust the offense the following year with 3 step drops, etc.

McKinney also said that he thought Capers fired Palmer to try to "win back the fans". And that Pendry was in the middle (perhaps insinuating that Pendry was the cause) of a lot of tension and dissent amongst the coaching staff.

He also spent a lot of time discussing David Carr and Peyton Manning, and while not directly trying to compare/contrast, each story could easily show why their careers are so different.

He said Peyton would have 5 or 6 options to change to at the line of scrimmage from his rookie year. And he would change the call about 50% of them time. And his responsibilities increased over time. He also said that Peyton is completely obsessive about football and that's probably why he doesn't have children yet. He agreed with John and Lance that this obsession is what makes the difference in the end.

They also talked about leadership, the aggressive kind and the leading-by-example kind. McKinney acknowledged that in order for people to want to follow you, you have to work harder than everyone else.

David is who he is. If he just had more instinct and more athleticism, he may have made it a little farther than he did. Because the work ethic and the motivation just weren't there, he just never lived up to his hype. Hey, it was a weak draft.
Nice summary.

I'm going to ask them to put McKinney's segments in the audio vault. It was about the most honest discussion of the Pendry/Palmer thing I've heard.
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Old 11-15-2007   #190
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

No offense, but I can't find McKinney all that credible with regards to being objective about Carr. I doubt SM would ever truly break down his buddy's play, either because he's too close to the subject and/or he won't throw a good friend "under the bus".

My take is that Carr would have sucked wherever he landed (think Brian Griese) and whatever QB we had in our first season (if it wasn't DC) would have suffered behind that line. It is quite possible that both the line and Carr were just bad. A match made in hell.


btw, my first (and most likely last) post in this thread. Talking about David Carr =
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Old 11-15-2007   #191
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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No offense, but I can't find McKinney all that credible with regards to being objective about Carr. I doubt SM would ever truly break down his buddy's play, either because he's too close to the subject and/or he won't throw a good friend "under the bus".

My take is that Carr would have sucked wherever he landed (think Brian Griese) and whatever QB we had in our first season (if it wasn't DC) would have suffered behind that line. It is quite possible that both the line and Carr were just bad. A match made in hell.


btw, my first (and most likely last) post in this thread. Talking about David Carr =
I agree with you DB. I don't understand this whole "we ruined him" approach. The guy just isn't an NFL football player. Sure he could play at Fresno State in the WAC conference, but the guy just wasn't NFL material.
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Old 11-15-2007   #192
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
No offense, but I can't find McKinney all that credible with regards to being objective about Carr. I doubt SM would ever truly break down his buddy's play, either because he's too close to the subject and/or he won't throw a good friend "under the bus".

My take is that Carr would have sucked wherever he landed (think Brian Griese) and whatever QB we had in our first season (if it wasn't DC) would have suffered behind that line. It is quite possible that both the line and Carr were just bad. A match made in hell.


btw, my first (and most likely last) post in this thread. Talking about David Carr =
He was pretty harsh on DC. Basically, I liked him as a guy, but implied football player not so much. Most of that came out when he was talking about playing with Peyton Manning and what Manning did to prepare.

He was just talking a lot about the history of what went down. I really don't think any rookie quarterback would have had success with what the Texans brought to the table in 2002. But I don't believe with what I know now that DC would have had success anywhere, partially because of his mechanics but mostly because of his nickle head and lack of QB good sense.
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Old 11-15-2007   #193
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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But I don't believe with what I know now that DC would have had success anywhere, partially because of his mechanics but mostly because of his nickle head and lack of QB good sense.
I remember when he was a rookie he gave this interview that had me really wondering how smart he really was. I remember not being able to figure out if he was joking around, or if he really was a pinhead.
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Old 11-15-2007   #194
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

I think a good QB can play in any system . Warren Moon had great success with the Oilers but he had some monster years with the Vikings also .

I think some systems make a QB look better than he is . This really applies in college ... see Florida QBs .

I think they put Carr in a system that they thought he could handle . You pick a QB #1 overall assuming he's the real deal . Part of being the real deal is not only physical , it's being a smart , driven player who can grasp most offenses .
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Old 11-15-2007   #195
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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eh, High School teams run option routes...its the foundation to the June Jones offense in Hawaii and the TT offense in Lubbock (College kids)....don't really buy it as an excuse. Palmer did well everywhere else he coached but he was a bad coach with Carr? Yeah, right.
QBs developed by Chris Palmer:

Drew Bledsoe
Mark Brunell
Rob Johnson
Tim Couch
David Carr


All those guys, even the successful ones (Bledsoe, Brunell), have a tendency to hold on to the ball way to long and have all taken a physical pounding in their respective careers. I doubt that's simply coincidence.
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Old 11-15-2007   #196
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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QBs developed by Chris Palmer:

Drew Bledsoe
Mark Brunell
Rob Johnson
Tim Couch
David Carr


All those guys, even the successful ones (Bledsoe, Brunell), have a tendency to hold on to the ball way to long and have all taken a physical pounding in their respective careers. I doubt that's simply coincidence.
probably some wild coincidence that some of their better years were with Palmer huh?
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Old 11-15-2007   #197
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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probably some wild coincidence that some of their better years were with Palmer huh?
I'm not arguing that he's inept, simply that I byproduct of what he teaches and/or his system is that his students hold on to the ball a long time.
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Old 11-15-2007   #198
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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But I don't believe with what I know now that DC would have had success anywhere, partially because of his mechanics but mostly because of his nickle head and lack of QB good sense.
Wow, I am almost in a state of shock for two reasons:

1. I agree with you and

2. You actually said it.

What a difference a year makes.
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Old 11-15-2007   #199
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

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Wow, I am almost in a state of shock for two reasons:

1. I agree with you and

2. You actually said it.

What a difference a year makes.
I never said that David Carr was mensa. I didn't want his option to be taken. In fact, I said as much on talk radio that was aired on ESPN. But once it was, I wanted to give the Texans some time to see what they could do with him under a new system because at that point he was going to be the guy. I am not a QB coach, nor do I pretend to be one on the internets.

As bad as it was with DC last year, the Texans did him no favors with the running back situation. And they run the risk of getting their QBs killed this year for the same reasons. I'm not saying DC = Schaub, Rosenfels, for the obvious reasons.

Throughout the years, I wrote all sorts of things about Carr's shortcomings.

Most of my objections with what you write is a matter of tone and realism. I don't think what you write often is fair in tone or realistic.

All players and coaches have good points and bad points. Because they are human and most people do. Some people see things in just black and white. I see a lot of gray, and I also know it is easier to criticize than create.
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Old 11-15-2007   #200
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Default Re: The Official "I got Carr's back" thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
I never said that David Carr was mensa. I didn't want his option to be taken. In fact, I said as much on talk radio that was aired on ESPN. But once it was, I wanted to give the Texans some time to see what they could do with him under a new system because at that point he was going to be the guy. I am not a QB coach, nor do I pretend to be one on the internets.

As bad as it was with DC last year, the Texans did him no favors with the running back situation. And they run the risk of getting their QBs killed this year for the same reasons. I'm not saying DC = Schaub, Rosenfels, for the obvious reasons.

Throughout the years, I wrote all sorts of things about Carr's shortcomings.

Most of my objections with what you write is a matter of tone and realism. I don't think what you write often is fair in tone or realistic.

All players and coaches have good points and bad points. Because they are human and most people do. Some people see things in just black and white. I see a lot of gray, and I also know it is easier to criticize than create.
The only thing I know of you is what you have posted on this board. Whatever you have done with blogs, espn radio, or anything else, I have not read nor followed in anyway.

My point was really the round and round motion we have had on every thing, not just Carr.

It was really meant as a joke and to laugh about in retrospect. The last thing I expected was a detailed analysis and discussion.

But, to respond to your critique that my comments typically are not fair and not realistic, I will say two things in response:

1. Nothing is ever fair, and
2. Reality is tainted by your own perceptions.

As I have learned, some people like my straight to the point-cut to the chase analysis and some people don't. I am what I am...

You be you, and I'll be me... As Joe Texan says, "That's what I do."
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