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Old 11-08-2006   #1
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Question Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1003

his best season was 2001 PRE KUBIAK

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268

Carr's best 2004

I just wonder why the gloom and doom from some on Carr

I wonder if Bronco fans felt the same way when Plummer came aboard
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Old 11-08-2006   #2
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

Yep, Plummer is an interesting case. He seemed to have fixed whatever was wrong with him in Arizona and put up two very nice stat oriented years. However, once the team need to trust him in a big spot in the playoffs he reverted back whatever he was. The Broncos responded this year by drafting a QB in the top portion of the first round and for the most part taking the offense back out of his hands.
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Old 11-08-2006   #3
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

hmm.... the offense looked to be pretty squarely in his hands this past weekend.

I also don't think Jake has to worry about jay as long as he's playing well... depending on the legth of his contract, if Jake plays well this year, next year, and the year after, he'll be the starter.

Cutler may not see the field for three years, unless someone makes Shanahan a good deal for Plummer.
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Old 11-08-2006   #4
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

The Denver message board is alot like this one. Half love Jake, and the other half dont. Jake is a really good QB. Great? No, but he can take your team to an AFC Championship game, but probably not the Super Bowl.
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Old 11-08-2006   #5
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
hmm.... the offense looked to be pretty squarely in his hands this past weekend.

I also don't think Jake has to worry about jay as long as he's playing well... depending on the legth of his contract, if Jake plays well this year, next year, and the year after, he'll be the starter.

Cutler may not see the field for three years, unless someone makes Shanahan a good deal for Plummer.
Well, Plummer is taking care of the playing part. Unless I am mistaken last week was Plummer only above average performance of the season. I will let someone else pull out his passer rating and game be game logs. Also, just from a financial aspect, the Broncos are not going to pay Plummer and Cutler high dollars for the year on end. I personally would shocked if Plummer is with the Broncos in 2008 and would not be surprised at all this time next year some other team is dealing with frustration called Jake Plummer.
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Old 11-08-2006   #6
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan View Post
Well, Plummer is taking care of the playing part. Unless I am mistaken last week was Plummer only above average performance of the season. I will let someone else pull out his passer rating and game be game logs. Also, just from a financial aspect, the Broncos are not going to pay Plummer and Cutler high dollars for the year on end. I personally would shocked if Plummer is with the Broncos in 2008 and would not be surprised at all this time next year some other team is dealing with frustration called Jake Plummer.
I wouldn't say year on end, but I don't think Shanahan is going to rush Cutler out onto the field, unless he has to. I don't care how he looked in the preseason, Shanahan knows that was preseason.

Remember, everybody thought Lienart was ready.

& Jake had a good game this past weekend, and I believe a 104, or a 108 rating the week before in the loss to Indy.

he started the year off rough, and he ended last year on a down note. But he's had more good games than bad in the last three years.
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Old 11-08-2006   #7
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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I wouldn't say year on end, but I don't think Shanahan is going to rush Cutler out onto the field, unless he has to. I don't care how he looked in the preseason, Shanahan knows that was preseason.

Remember, everybody thought Lienart was ready.

& Jake had a good game this past weekend, and I believe a 104, or a 108 rating the week before in the loss to Indy.

he started the year off rough, and he ended last year on a down note. But he's had more good games than bad in the last three years.

While I believe more of it was media driven than team driven, there was some smoke about Cutler replacing Plummer this year. Three years (your post) in NFL terms before starting a high draft pick is unheard of in the modern era unless he has injuries. I can't name one guy drafted as high Cutler who was not handed the job (deserved or not) in the last 10-12 years.

As for more good games than bad, that was not really the problem. It was the fact his bad game(s) seemed to come at the worst possible moments.
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Old 11-08-2006   #8
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

I hate to say this but when if all we got to look forward to is a Jake Plummer version in houston i would be disapointed. i would much rather set my expectation to a Peyton Manning another 1st overall pick. but i might be asking to much.
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Old 11-08-2006   #9
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

this got lost in translation.. PRE KUBIAK
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Old 11-08-2006   #10
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
this got lost in translation.. PRE KUBIAK
Not really, this was an attempt to say that Kubiak took Plummer to another level of player. Well, Plummer was in a better situation in term of talent and Kubiak's coaching, but based on the playoffs last year and the early part of this year, the reality is that Plummer is not a transformed player, but has been an inconsistent, average one with better stuff (talent, defense, coaching) around him. IMO, the fact the Denver has spent a high draft pick on his replacement, signals that the Broncos understand what they have in him. Nothing lost in the tranlation, just not drawing the conclusion that you want me to.

On the unstated point of this thread, can Kubiak do the same with David Carr? Yes, he can place Carr in a better situation than the previous administration, but I also think it is rare(an exception) that players with Carr's combination of years in the league and games played turn into a different level of player.
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Old 11-09-2006   #11
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan View Post
While I believe more of it was media driven than team driven, there was some smoke about Cutler replacing Plummer this year. Three years (your post) in NFL terms before starting a high draft pick is unheard of in the modern era unless he has injuries. I can't name one guy drafted as high Cutler who was not handed the job (deserved or not) in the last 10-12 years.

As for more good games than bad, that was not really the problem. It was the fact his bad game(s) seemed to come at the worst possible moments.
If Shanahan drafted Cutler to replace Jake, he would have done so by now, with the way Jake had been playing earlier this year.

They had a winning QB when they drafted Cutler.... they were happy with him then, & are happy with him now. They saw something in Cutler that they thought was special, and they understood QBs like Cutler don't come along all the time. They had the capitol to trade up, they didn't have any glaring needs that they would be ignoring, it made sense to move up to get him.

If they are happy with Jake, I see no reason for them to terminate his contract early.... Unless they get a good trade, which they might.

If they are winning, I see no reason for them to start a young QB.

They gave Jake a $7 million bonus in 2003, and a $6 million bonus in 2005, then they went 13-3 in 2005, and Jake is signed through 2010.

If it doesn't make sense to sit Cutler, it makes even less sense to sit Plummer. He will most likely start this year, and next, & it would make sense to trade him for the 2008 season.

But if he ever gets hurt, and Cutler ever gets to play...... he may not get the opportunity to play for Denver again...... like what happened to TrentGreen in StL, and again in KC this year.
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Old 11-09-2006   #12
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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If they are winning, I see no reason for them to start a young QB.
Philip Rivers said on the NFL network that he was surprised how much he learned sitting on the bench a couple of years. That allowed him to get to a place where he could basically just step in and be ready to play.

I expect Shanahan to do that with Cutler. Plummer would have to totally self destruct or get injured for Cutler to see time this year and possibly next year. You don't see very many teams willing to make that kind of investment in a player anymore.
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Old 11-09-2006   #13
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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On the unstated point of this thread, can Kubiak do the same with David Carr? Yes, he can place Carr in a better situation than the previous administration, but I also think it is rare(an exception) that players with Carr's combination of years in the league and games played turn into a different level of player.
Hard to say with the expansion circumstances Carr came into.

Capers' record of developing new players at Carolina was not a good one. He did very well with experienced players, not so well developing is own.

There are very few players that can overcome poor coaching/scheme. Especially at a position as involved as the QB one.
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Old 11-09-2006   #14
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

I just think people are expecting more of Carr at this point of the game. Yeah, he's learning a new system and all, but a lot of people can't shake the fact that he's in his 5th year and has been about an average QB. We're just impatient and want wins, and we want wins that come from Carr. At some point, close games just aren't good enough. We got a lot of those from Capers. We're through with close games. We want wins.

I'm still willing to give Carr time (not like I have a choice really), but even I have to admit I get really dissappointed after every loss. It's not like in our expansion years when close losses were taken as moral victories. And it's also hard to ignore how well Rosenfels played when he came in. We want to believe that he's the guy that's going to lead us to the playoffs at least, and we STILL don't know if he's the guy after 5 YEARS!!! C'mon, it's like a girl who's been waiting for years for her boyfriend to ask her to marry her.

And Plummer is treated the same way if you go read the message boards. Lots of people just want Cutler to start right now. He's by no means the all-start franchise QB in Denver either. Plummer and Carr are both is the same shaky boat. Plummer might be even more so, because he is always 1 bad game away from the whole city turning against him and calling him "Jake-the-mistake". At least we know Kubiak is very committed to Carr. Shanahan has Plummer on a much tighter leash. Comparing Carr and Plummer is not something fans want to hear. Even I expect Carr to be twice the QB Plummer is...

Last edited by phan1; 11-09-2006 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 11-09-2006   #15
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
Hard to say with the expansion circumstances Carr came into.

Capers' record of developing new players at Carolina was not a good one. He did very well with experienced players, not so well developing is own.

There are very few players that can overcome poor coaching/scheme. Especially at a position as involved as the QB one.
There is a relationship between coaching, systems and the talent of the player. I believe the formula varies from situation to situation. Example, there a relative handful of elite players in the league making coaches look smarter than they really. I believe players perform @ certain level of play because they are a certain level of player. That's why there is a seldom massive turn aorund of a player several years into his career.

The job of coaching is to recognize the true talent level of you player and take advantage of his good parts and minimize your exposure to his bad parts. You are not making a player something he is not, just getting the best out of him. Can Kubiak get more out Carr than the previous administrations? Yes.

As for Carr, I don't believe he is an elite or near elite player ruined by bad coaching, I believe he is middle class QB. Not top 8, not bottom 8, but one of those 16 starters in between. with Kubiak can he be closer to 12 than 20? I hope so.
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Old 11-09-2006   #16
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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Originally Posted by ArlingtonTexan View Post
Well, Plummer is taking care of the playing part. Unless I am mistaken last week was Plummer only above average performance of the season.
More importantly, he looked real good. He played smart, I guess some of the Kubiak stuff is still stuck in his head
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Old 11-09-2006   #17
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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I can't name one guy drafted as high Cutler who was not handed the job (deserved or not) in the last 10-12 years.
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Old 11-11-2006   #18
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Default Re: Pre Kubiak:JP versus DC

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Philip Rivers said on the NFL network that he was surprised how much he learned sitting on the bench a couple of years. That allowed him to get to a place where he could basically just step in and be ready to play.

I expect Shanahan to do that with Cutler. Plummer would have to totally self destruct or get injured for Cutler to see time this year and possibly next year. You don't see very many teams willing to make that kind of investment in a player anymore.
agreed
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