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Old 10-31-2006   #1
leachmtb
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Default Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

This question has been troubling me ever since the draft talk started up last year. As a fellow Houstonian that attended Vanderbilt, I have been a huge Jay Cutler fan. So, as I watched through my Vanderbilt lens, I never quite saw Vince Young as the player that all of the UT fans did. Don't get me wrong, I think the guys is a great college quarterback, but it was difficult for me not to see that given Vince's surrounding talent, Jay could have done all of that too.

So, this leads me to my question. Is it impossible for us to be purely objective about his Vince Young's talents? The truth is, we're all biased in some way, but I'd like to hear good objective arguments as to why you think he is either good or not good as a pro-prospect. Please don't say, "He is the best freakin' QB ever, and will always be a winner while David Carr is a loser." (that's not being objective).

Me, I personally think that Vince Young will be a solid pro, but no better. I don't think he'll be any better than Ben Roethlesberger, a QB that makes very little mistakes and puts your team in a good position to win. It think his time at UT showed that he is capable of making good decisions, primarily because his running ability allows him freedom to not force the ball when throwing. But, I have yet to see him throw into really tight coverage (that's not to say that he isn't accurate, but he is not Peyton Manning). So, whereas everyone else says that the sky is the limit with him, I am not so sure. I think he'll be a middle of the road QB that leads his team to some playoff wins.

I do not sweat the decision to pass Vince Young over, because I like that we are giving David Carr a chance (I also see David Carr as being a rookie). I'm not sure if David will ever make it, but I think it was a wise decision to give him a shot.

I have a feeling that I am going to be blasted for this post, but I like the dialogue. And, if it bothers you all that much then I will give you my completely biased subjective opinion, which is that Jay Cutler and David Carr are better than Vince Young. (I just thought I'd give my subjective comeback to any subjective posts).
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Old 10-31-2006   #2
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

Impossible. Next.

ETA - only kidding, of course, but good luck
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Old 10-31-2006   #3
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

Oh Lord.....I was wanting to get Cutler SO BAD. I think he's going to be awesome. I'm happy we didn't get Young. Although with our line we could have used his legs (or Bush's legs for that matter).

Carr is NO rookie. And I think he's mentally bruised with the yrs of getting knocked around. I feel sad for him because I think he's almost been ruined by our past coaches and O-line. He needs a break.

And now..... I would stay with Sage for the next game or two. It was working in the TN game and if it's working and the team is responding then why mess with it? Who cares why right now. It just was. (And no, I'm not saying "Sage is the Man.")
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Old 10-31-2006   #4
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

The title of this thread says it all.

Good luck.

Apparently, the QB is solely responsible for the success or failure of the team.

Apparently, stone-handed Pro Bowl receivers who drop two consecutive 3rd down passes are not subjective to the same scrutiny.

Amazing.

Just adding some OBJECTIVE analysis for ya'.
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Old 10-31-2006   #5
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

QB is an important position, gpshafer, and should be discussed as such, IMO.

Jay Cutler will be leading the Broncos to three more Super Bowls. Mark my words. I hate the Broncos (because of Champ Bailey.... that #$%@#$^@), but Jay Cutler will have a better NFL career than any other QB in the 2006 draft.

Mark my words, boy, and mark them well.
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Old 10-31-2006   #6
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

I just think it depends on your preference....Some people will never think of Young as great even if he wins three Super Bowls....Just like there are some people who still think Tom Brady just got lucky....

If your thing is QB's who throw tight spirals, and can fit the ball into small spaces, then i can see why you love cutler, or Manning, or Joe blow...

Me...I like QB's who win...I like QB's who make plays we you need them...I like QB's who limit mistakes....I like QB's who can escape pressure...

I don't VY has a great arm or anything like that....But I think he can throw good enough + all of the other things he brings to the table, to be a great QB in the NFL....
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Old 10-31-2006   #7
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

I would love nothing more than for this team to draft a stud tackle in the first round next year, then add a QB either later in the draft or the following year. This team needs a better O-line; they always have. I don't want to see another talented QB thrown to the wolves.

As for Cutler, I think he will have the best career of the drafted ones this year as well. He has the best team around him, a line that does what they do very well, and he's sitting a year to learn the offense. Heck, I think Croyle may turn out to be better than either Vince or Leinart when all is said and done.
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Old 10-31-2006   #8
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

At the college level, his scrambling ability made it impossible for the defenses to take him out of the game. If they focused on stopping his running, he'd beat them with his arm, and if they took away the pass, he'd beat them with his legs.

Because he could scramble, he was able to get recievers wide open, his head was always in the game, so he would see those wide open recievers, and his arm was strong enough that he could get the ball out to them.

I'm not a big MichaelVick fan, but we are seeing how that is helping him in the last 2 games..... 7 TD passes.

I'll admit when I saw McNabb at Syracuse, and Vick at VT.... I didn't think either of them would be much in the NFL, because at that time, Randall Cunningham was the closest thing the NFL had to a college QB. & I didn't think either of them had the talent that Cunningham had.

Then when I saw McNabb & Culpepper in the pros, and CBs & LBs were bouncing off of them, & DEs & DTs would miss them more times than not, everything changed.... for me. I saw that athletic QBs with that size could be effective.

People want to talk about Vince's accuracy, but if you give him time in the pocket, he's just as accurate as anybody in the game right now.

The only question I have about Vince, is if he can take a hit in the pocket, and still throw the deadly strike down field. If he turns into Joey Harrington(another QB I liked coming out of college) & leaves the pocket early & often, then I don't think he'll be more than avg.

That, is where I think the difference is between McNabb & Culpepper right now.

David, can be just as good in his own right. He'll never be like McNabb or Culpepper, but he can be as good as Brady, Brees, Rivers, Grossman, Palmer.. which I have no problem with.

the only thing I don't want, is for him to be like Plummer, Griese, Maddox, & Brister.
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Old 10-31-2006   #9
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by afcman View Post

And now..... I would stay with Sage for the next game or two. It was working in the TN game and if it's working and the team is responding then why mess with it? Who cares why right now. It just was. (And no, I'm not saying "Sage is the Man.")
Carr was working pretty good as well. If we can get rid of his Turnovers, he'll be a pretty good QB, and will help this team get a lot of wins.

We would have dominated that Titans, if he didn't fumble, or throw that ill advised pass.


I don't see a problem with letting Kubiak work those things out.
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Old 10-31-2006   #10
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leachmtb
This question has been troubling me ever since the draft talk started up last year. As a fellow Houstonian that attended Vanderbilt, I have been a huge Jay Cutler fan. So, as I watched through my Vanderbilt lens, I never quite saw Vince Young as the player that all of the UT fans did. Don't get me wrong, I think the guys is a great college quarterback, but it was difficult for me not to see that given Vince's surrounding talent, Jay could have done all of that too.
Chris Simms had similar, if not better, talent while he was at Texas. Jay Cutler would've faired no better than Simms. He would've been good. But he wouldn't have accomplished the things Vince did.

It's not just about talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leachmtb
So, this leads me to my question. Is it impossible for us to be purely objective about his Vince Young's talents? The truth is, we're all biased in some way, but I'd like to hear good objective arguments as to why you think he is either good or not good as a pro-prospect. Please don't say, "He is the best freakin' QB ever, and will always be a winner while David Carr is a loser." (that's not being objective).

Me, I personally think that Vince Young will be a solid pro, but no better. I don't think he'll be any better than Ben Roethlesberger, a QB that makes very little mistakes and puts your team in a good position to win. It think his time at UT showed that he is capable of making good decisions, primarily because his running ability allows him freedom to not force the ball when throwing. But, I have yet to see him throw into really tight coverage (that's not to say that he isn't accurate, but he is not Peyton Manning). So, whereas everyone else says that the sky is the limit with him, I am not so sure. I think he'll be a middle of the road QB that leads his team to some playoff wins.
Vince is the anti-Roethlisberger. Ben was afforded the opportunity of going to a good team that just happened to have a fluke season that put them into position to draft him. Look at Pittsburgh's record before and after drafting Ben:

2000 - 9-7
2001 - 13-3
2002 - 10-5-1
2003 - 6-10
2004 - 15-1 (Ben's 1st season)
2005 - 11-5

Vince will have not that luxury. The Titans are a bad, bad team. Vince is pretty much going to be counted on to make a lot of plays. That's the opposite of what Roethlisberger was/is asked to do. But you can already see he's making an impact with them. Not so much on the field (yet), but in the lockeroom, the sidelines and at practice. He's starting to do in Tennessee what he did at Texas...getting his teammates to believe in him. That's a unique ability that not too many players have.

I think he's going to be a dynamic pro. And it will have nothing to do with being an accurate passer (which I agree he's not).

Again, it's not just about talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leachmtb
I do not sweat the decision to pass Vince Young over, because I like that we are giving David Carr a chance (I also see David Carr as being a rookie). I'm not sure if David will ever make it, but I think it was a wise decision to give him a shot.
That's one of the weirdest takes I've seen in awhile. I mean if you're willing to see Carr as a rookie is his 5th season, would your objective viewpoint allow you to see Young as a rookie in his 5th season?

The general rule is that you can usually tell what you have in a player by year 3. For some, it might be year 4. To say Carr is being given a shot in his 5th year should pretty much tell you everything you need to know about him.

If your reasoning behind that is that the team hasn't done much to surround him with talent, how was Tony Banks able to do okay during his time in Houston? But I agree it was the best decision for the Texans not to draft Young. I just don't think it was the right decision to draft Williams either (or Bush).

There's something to be said for an idividual that has a strong desire for winning but is also fortunate enough to be blessed with a lot of athletic ability and a great work ethic to go with it. Players that have that combination just don't come around very often. Vince is one of those players. David Carr is not. Jay Cutler might be but he'll have to prove it in the NFL because so far he's been able to fall back on his Vanderbilt excuse (I didn't have the surrounding talent that other QB's did).

That is why Vince will be a great player.
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Old 10-31-2006   #11
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

What about Leinart?

He is playing bad but he is a rookie too.

I think Young will have the best career followed closely by Leinart.

Then I like Croyle (Alabama) on the Chiefs & Cutler.

Kellen Clemens could maybe have a decent career also.
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Old 11-01-2006   #12
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

I don't care if you're a rookie Big Ben, an in his prime Peyton Manning, or an experienced former SuperBowl winner like Brad Johnson. It's not always stats in game, it's the stats in the W-L columns at the end of the regular season before the playoffs. As long as I have a QB is giving 101% each and every game, learning from mistakes and giving faith and confidence to his team-mates, it doesn't matter how much you win by or how for that matter.

Sometimes your Special Teams will need to step up. Sometimes it will be your Defense. Your QB isn't always gonna have a perfect game, half, quarter, series or play. But as long as he does what he needs to do (which is obv lead the troops into battle with determination) then it's all good by me.

I haven't seen a lot of all this year's drafted QB's but I did like what I saw from Cutler the most. Not saying I didn't want Vince, or Leinart or even bringing in Sage for that matter. All I want is the guy who gives us the best shot at winning 16 weeks a year...
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Old 11-02-2006   #13
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Default Re: Objective Discussion About Quarterbacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huge View Post
Chris Simms had similar, if not better, talent while he was at Texas. Jay Cutler would've faired no better than Simms. He would've been good. But he wouldn't have accomplished the things Vince did.

It's not just about talent.


There's something to be said for an idividual that has a strong desire for winning but is also fortunate enough to be blessed with a lot of athletic ability and a great work ethic to go with it. Players that have that combination just don't come around very often. Vince is one of those players. David Carr is not. Jay Cutler might be but he'll have to prove it in the NFL because so far he's been able to fall back on his Vanderbilt excuse (I didn't have the surrounding talent that other QB's did).

That is why Vince will be a great player.
I made sure that I read through your post twice before I responded in order to make sure tha I fully understood what you were saying. (I didn't want to mistake your point). Also, because you are a less informed fan (about Cutler than I am about Vince - not your fault, just that Texas was on TV more than Vandy) I will not hold some of these ideas against you.

But, comparing Cutler to Chris Simms is about as fair as saying David Carr is the same as Archie Manning. I am not trying to take anything away from Vince Young, I am just trying to make you see that you need to give Cutler more credit. Chris Simms was the player that folded against any team with any decent amount of talent; he was the guy that everyone looked down upon because the "less talented" Major Applewhite could win more games. This was not the case with Jay. Cutler willed Vanderbilt to wins over both Arkansas and Tennessee (both of which are much more talented across the board than Vanderbilt, and are both ranked in the top 15 this year). And, if it weren't for one of the most controversial referee calls of last year (I'm not making this up, it got national news) we would have beat Florida as well. All of this was done with players that received one and two star recruiting votes from Rivals100. I cannot say that Jay would have won the National Title that Vince did, but he sure as heck would have done more than Chris Simms.

How many other Texas players from last years team were drafted? I don't know, but I know of at least one other that was taken in the top 10. How many other players from Vanderbilt were drafted? There were no other players from Vanderbilt drafted, and only three were invited to try out as Free Agents. Only one of those three made it past the first round of cuts. So, I don't mean to be rude, but those are just some facts that point to how big Jay's accomplishments at Vandy actually were. And to say that Jay has to prove it in the NFL is absolutely true. But, if you are to say that, then you must also admit that Vince has everything to prove at this level as well.
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