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Old 09-28-2004   #1
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Default Bench DD. . .Our Run Game Is Done

Is what Iíve been reading in many threads, I disagree. Many have stated that he is done and that our running game isnít going to threaten anyone.

I do believe DD needs to hold onto the rock and that until he does we are not going to be as effective as weíd like to be. However, I think many of us will agree that is has major talent, can make amazing cuts, and can open up the passing game for us because he is such a threat. The other 31 teams in this league know how explosive he is and just how much damage he can and will do to them if he is not contained.

WHEN he was in the game against KC he didnít have a good showing, but just as everyone does in the NFL, he had bad day. Wells played ok, he didnít have a great showing, but did make some key plays to help the team. I do not believe that Wells is the answer over DD. DD has been a great back, and will continue to be a great back. . . We just need to dip his hands in some tar! I have faith in him, and am sure he will return to the player that got him Rookie of the Year.


GO DD AND GO TEXANS!
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Old 09-28-2004   #2
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I agree that the running game is not done. But I do not agree with keeping DD in the game 100%b of the time. I think we should do running back by commitee with DD and JW. I like what I saw out of Wells. Im not blaming DD for the loses, but when you fumble like he has, things need to change. Again, for those DD lovers, I am in no way saying to bench the boy. Im just saying we need to split the carries for a few games. Maybe the season.
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Old 09-28-2004   #3
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Originally Posted by Texans Pride
However, I think many of us will agree that is has major talent, can make amazing cuts, and can open up the passing game for us because he is such a threat. The other 31 teams in this league know how explosive he is and just how much damage he can and will do to them if he is not contained.
Explosive??? Major talent??? Portis, LT, Fred Taylor, and Jamal Lewis are major talents and Davis is not on that level and Davis is anything but an explosive back. He is a good back but to be explosive a player has to have a couple of long TD runs and Davis does not bust long TD runs or break 10 yard dump downs into anything. Is there anything different between Davis and Deuce Staley??? And if teams thought that Davis was so explosive do you think they would allow him to catch 10 yard dump offs??? You can easily take away a dump off but defenses will let him have it.

And DC_ROCK, why did you leave off Hollings???
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Old 09-28-2004   #4
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DC,

I'm not sold on Wells enough to split time with DD, but Hollings should get some time for sure.

I'd also like our other offensive players to earn thier paycheck by making some plays. Of course that is only going to happen if DD isn't given the rock every play.

I think this KC game was a good showing that our other weapons on the team can and will get the job done when given the opportunity.
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Old 09-28-2004   #5
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i'm not ready to give up on davis yet but either way i see us drafting a runningback on the first day of the draft next year...maybe not in the first round but i could see us picking one up in the second or third...or acquiring a young back through free agency...my guess is...look for the texans to make to inquire about mcgahee
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Old 09-28-2004   #6
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i'm not ready to give up on davis yet but either way i see us drafting a runningback on the first day of the draft next year...maybe not in the first round but i could see us picking one up in the second or third...or acquiring a young back through free agency...my guess is...look for the texans to make to inquire about mcgahee
Uhh, McGahee??? That is the Bills RB for the future, they arent giving him up. And why would we take a RB on the first day of the draft or pay money for one through free agency??? If they do get one it will be to replace Wells (who I think becomes a FA, but not sure).
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Old 09-28-2004   #7
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I seriously doubt we draft a back on day 1 next year. You can easily find a serviceable backup in later rounds. Heck, sometimes you can even find a serviceable starter. Unless the guy is just too too good to pass up on, I don't believe it will happen. Not with our need for a young stud defensive lineman and possibly a tight end (Come on Joppy, I'm pullin' for ya!).

Since Davis will be listed as questionable sunday, maybe it's Holling's chance to show us what he's got.

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Old 09-28-2004   #8
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Explosive??? Major talent??? Portis, LT, Fred Taylor, and Jamal Lewis are major talents and Davis is not on that level and Davis is anything but an explosive back. He is a good back but to be explosive a player has to have a couple of long TD runs and Davis does not bust long TD runs or break 10 yard dump downs into anything. Is there anything different between Davis and Deuce Staley??? And if teams thought that Davis was so explosive do you think they would allow him to catch 10 yard dump offs??? You can easily take away a dump off but defenses will let him have it.

And DC_ROCK, why did you leave off Hollings???
You didn't choose to respond to me last time, maybe this time--put aside your like for Hollings (by the way look back and I was one of the biggest Hollings' sponsors prior to the expansion draft) and stop putting a negative spin on everything DD does--JMO. Just like kick returners I don't think the measure of a RB is long TD's. I think the measure of a RB is chewing up yardage and getting that extra yard when needed--versatile is a great add on as well. You have repeatedly criticized 10 yard dump down passes--another name for those is 1st downs. Does it make it better if DD gets 7 of those in a game or if DD gets 4 Miller 2 and Bruener 1? No unless the other team can shut DD down. Bigger picture for the gift theory crowd--noone in the NFL gives away 1st downs on purpose. Explosive?--wow, I define explosive as someone who rips off long runs or who runs over people he shouldn't and gets yards he shouldn't--DD meets one of those. Maybe if folks apply the same logic they do (and I do) about defending Carr, i.e. the OL ain't up to par yet, they would recognize that DD would be doing even better behind a good OL.

Anyone want to venture that DD would not have better numbers in KC than here or that Holmes would have worse numbers here than in KC?
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Old 09-28-2004   #9
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There is absolutley nothing wrong with DD as our RB, except fumbles.

Having said that, however, I hope Carr learned something when he was able to get more passes off to receivers when DD was not in the game. Dumping to DD is not a bad idea, but I think Carr was doing it too much and possibly missing some opportunities downfield--or at least further down than DD. There's no question that the O-line isn't protecing him well enough, but DD went out and Carr threw more to receivers and the tight-end.

Mostly, though, it all comes down to that first sentence in this post. That and the fact that I do think both Hollings and Wells should get some time in every game. I think DD should be in there about 70% of the time, with the other 2 guys both splitting the rest. Obviously, Wells would be more the short yardage guy.
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Old 09-28-2004   #10
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
Maybe if folks apply the same logic they do (and I do) about defending Carr, i.e. the OL ain't up to par yet, they would recognize that DD would be doing even better behind a good OL.

Anyone want to venture that DD would not have better numbers in KC than here or that Holmes would have worse numbers here than in KC?
I agree with that point, but I'd add that Shannahan wanted DD in last year's draft. He would shine behind the best OLine in the NFL. Big runs require more than just explosive speed. You also need WRs and/or TEs blocking down field. This isn't a shot at AJ or Gaffney or any of our WRs, but the Broncos put an increased emphasis on blocking for everyone on the team. I'm sure if DD ran in Denver's offense he'd be considered an explosive back. Especially with the departure of Portis.
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Old 09-28-2004   #11
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
You didn't choose to respond to me last time, maybe this time--put aside your like for Hollings (by the way look back and I was one of the biggest Hollings' sponsors prior to the expansion draft) and stop putting a negative spin on everything DD does--JMO. Just like kick returners I don't think the measure of a RB is long TD's. I think the measure of a RB is chewing up yardage and getting that extra yard when needed--versatile is a great add on as well. You have repeatedly criticized 10 yard dump down passes--another name for those is 1st downs. Does it make it better if DD gets 7 of those in a game or if DD gets 4 Miller 2 and Bruener 1? No unless the other team can shut DD down. Bigger picture for the gift theory crowd--noone in the NFL gives away 1st downs on purpose. Explosive?--wow, I define explosive as someone who rips off long runs or who runs over people he shouldn't and gets yards he shouldn't--DD meets one of those. Maybe if folks apply the same logic they do (and I do) about defending Carr, i.e. the OL ain't up to par yet, they would recognize that DD would be doing even better behind a good OL.

Anyone want to venture that DD would not have better numbers in KC than here or that Holmes would have worse numbers here than in KC?
Who wouldnt be great playing behind the KC O-line???

But IMO, the problems of the O-line can be attributed to DD. If he was a speedster, the opposing defense would hesitate to fill the box up with 8 players for the fear of getting burned long on a run. Teams have one year of film on DD and can tell that he is going to get his yards but hasnt proven that he can beat a team single-handly by ripping off a 60 yard runs (a la Portis, LT, Lewis, Taylor), so they say "why dont we stack the box and take our chances and blitz every down like it is a passing down because Davis is not going to get behind us if we guess wrong." (whoa, I just checked HPF and Vinny wrote something very similar to that...)

(I dont know if it is the change is scheme or Seth Wand and Pitts playing new positions, but the o-line last year looks better than the one this year.)

And yes, I cant argue that giving it to Davis on a dump off and letting him get the first down isnt good (but I do believe that unless you are LT and on the Chargers' your starting RB shouldnt have more receptions than your stud WR) but what defenses are doing are playing bend but dont break style because they know that when the Texans get deeper in the defenses territory they can stop them and hold them to a FG by sealing off Davis...

Goal line backs get yards they arent suppose to but you dont see anyone calling them explosive......


On a side note, Indy plays Cover 2 and for some reason Favre didnt take the 10 yard dump downs to Green and challenged deep to Walker and it worked and McNabb destroyed the Lions, who played Cover 2...
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Old 09-28-2004   #12
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Domanick Davis is a weapon in the Texans arsenal. He shouldn't become the only weapon nor should he be put away completely. He's going to get you a hundred or near that on the ground in most games. He can rip a pretty good run from time to time though admittedly he has not shown an ability to do this on a Portis-Lewis-Taylor level yet. Maybe he never will and maybe that's just around the corner. Whichever one it is there isn't a person on this board who can say for certain that they know what his future is.

I think the biggest problem in weeks 1 & 2 with the way the Texans use Davis is that they channeled an enormous amount of their offense through him and seemingly forgot about everything else. The list of players who can take a team on their shoulders and carry them to a win on a week in and week out basis is very short. Only a handful have ever been good enough to do this and I personally think it was premature of the Texans coaches to put this much emphasis on Davis. It's not like their drawer full of "tools" was empty.

Take the pressure of Davis and spread the ball around. Let him go back to being "the" running back and not "the guy we're going to beat you with every week" and good things will start to happen again. Some weeks he might very well be the guy we're going to beat you with but those weeks will come a lot easier if the other team isn't focusing entirely on Davis.

Lastly he needs better run blocking. He had better blocking last season and was effective. This is simply a matter of the line getting it's gel on and settling down into the new blocking scheme. By midseason they'll start to resemble the line that helped DD to some of those hundred yard games and by the time the end of the season gets here there will be a real reason to be excited about what Davis, and the rest of the Texans are going to do in 2005.
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Old 09-28-2004   #13
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i agree with Hervoyel, although DD showed us alot of potential last year, it seemed a bit rushed to put so much of the offensive load on him so early. i hate to say it but the i think DD touching the ball as much as he did in week 1 & 2 might have led to the fumbles. i don't think he's fumble prone and i think if aj or hollings or any other skill player touched the ball that much in two games their fumbles would be comprable just because the risk is increased that much more. this being said i think DD should get a minimum of 15-20 carries a game and however many dump off carr needs to. im suprised people blame carr and davis for the ten yards a pop thing when the most obvious culprit is the o-line. the example was given about the eagles and colts torching cover 2/cover 2 shells by going deep.....well the difference between us and them is......o-lines. you can't blame DD for doing his job and relieving david, and you can't blame david for making the right call given the situation (heavy pass rush). and something funny i just thought of, everyone seems to think aj/corey/jabar are open more often then not. well i don't think anyone can give me one example of this because unless the ball is thrown, we don't see downfield! i believe in the talent of our VERY talented recieving core, but i also know CB's and S's exist downfield as well. and just to offer support to my argument that carr isn't getting the protection to make reads downfield but he is throwing when they are open is the favre-esque TD throw he made to bradford in the detroit game as he was getting sacked. yes bradford was wide open but carr had enought time to see it with an LB gunning him down. i think carr's the kinda QB who would take this kinda shot alot more, if it were there. but back on topic, DD is our answer for the next 2-3 years (pending fumbles) and if he matures like we all hope, the first "franchise" back in texans history!
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Old 09-28-2004   #14
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i agree with Hervoyel, although DD showed us alot of potential last year, it seemed a bit rushed to put so much of the offensive load on him so early. i hate to say it but the i think DD touching the ball as much as he did in week 1 & 2 might have led to the fumbles. i don't think he's fumble prone and i think if aj or hollings or any other skill player touched the ball that much in two games their fumbles would be comprable just because the risk is increased that much more. this being said i think DD should get a minimum of 15-20 carries a game and however many dump off carr needs to. im suprised people blame carr and davis for the ten yards a pop thing when the most obvious culprit is the o-line. the example was given about the eagles and colts torching cover 2/cover 2 shells by going deep.....well the difference between us and them is......o-lines. you can't blame DD for doing his job and relieving david, and you can't blame david for making the right call given the situation (heavy pass rush). and something funny i just thought of, everyone seems to think aj/corey/jabar are open more often then not. well i don't think anyone can give me one example of this because unless the ball is thrown, we don't see downfield! i believe in the talent of our VERY talented recieving core, but i also know CB's and S's exist downfield as well. and just to offer support to my argument that carr isn't getting the protection to make reads downfield but he is throwing when they are open is the favre-esque TD throw he made to bradford in the detroit game as he was getting sacked. yes bradford was wide open but carr had enought time to see it with an LB gunning him down. i think carr's the kinda QB who would take this kinda shot alot more, if it were there. but back on topic, DD is our answer for the next 2-3 years (pending fumbles) and if he matures like we all hope, the first "franchise" back in texans history!
Davis had only one fumble late and that one was agianst the Chargers in the 4th quarter when he sealed the game for them. Davis was fresh when he fumbled the ball 3 times because those 3 fumbles occured in the first half. And Johnson has handled the ball about 80 times in his career without a fumble. Davis doesnt even have 80 touches this year and has 4 fumbles...

I watched the Colts and Eagles games', the difference was that the Packers and Lions didnt stack the lines on defense because James and Westbrook could destroy them on long runs.

And yes, I saw one play during the Lions game when Carr dumped it off to Davis and missed Gaff on a seam route...
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Old 09-28-2004   #15
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I watched the Colts and Eagles games', the difference was that the Packers and Lions didnt stack the lines on defense because James and Westbrook could destroy them on long runs...
Almost had me until here. The Packers and Lions didn't stack thelines on defense because Favre and McNabb would destroy them on passing plays not because James and Westbrook would destroy them on long runs. 22 passing plays to start the game--enough said.
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Old 09-28-2004   #16
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But IMO, the problems of the O-line can be attributed to DD. If he was a speedster, the opposing defense would hesitate to fill the box up with 8 players for the fear of getting burned long on a run.
Explain this one to me--show me where opposing defenses release everyone but their front 4 or 3 to cover those down field runs from the "elite" rb's, evidently giving up on every run under 5 yds, for shear fear of the 50 yd run? Folks routinely stack the line against the Ravens, KC, Miami last season, Denver last season, etc. to stuff run 1st offenses. Teams do not drop 7 or 8 to hope they can contain the RB down field.

Sidenote to Huge--funny how Emmitt wasn't all that great a back because he had no speed and the OL did all the work for him and DD makes his OL look bad because he doesn't have enough speed to break over 20 yd runs--by the way how often do you see an OLmen 20+ yds down field?
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Old 09-28-2004   #17
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Davis had only one fumble late and that one was agianst the Chargers in the 4th quarter when he sealed the game for them. Davis was fresh when he fumbled the ball 3 times because those 3 fumbles occured in the first half. And Johnson has handled the ball about 80 times in his career without a fumble. Davis doesnt even have 80 touches this year and has 4 fumbles...

I watched the Colts and Eagles games', the difference was that the Packers and Lions didnt stack the lines on defense because James and Westbrook could destroy them on long runs.

And yes, I saw one play during the Lions game when Carr dumped it off to Davis and missed Gaff on a seam route...
good point but just because 3 of the fumbles occured in the first half doesn't mean davis was fresh for them. in other words first half doesn't = fresh player. but i won't continue because defending something that shouldn't happen is pointless in itself.

i think infantrycak refuted your second point quite well with this statement:
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Explain this one to me--show me where opposing defenses release everyone but their front 4 or 3 to cover those down field runs from the "elite" rb's, evidently giving up on every run under 5 yds, for shear fear of the 50 yd run?
and i would like to add i don't think westbrook strikes fear into anyone the way edgirin james can, and i think teams who play the eagles would prefer westbrook to run wild if they could contain mcnabb in anyway shape or form.

as too the carr misread, i guess you got me on this one, but one mistake by carr doesn't really do anything to further or diminish either of our points. i was just trying to bring some balance to the viewpoint that carr/davis are the only one's who can/have taken away from the passing game. reciever's and o-line are also pretty improtant in the passing eqaution.
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Old 09-29-2004   #18
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As much as I'm critical of the run game, its as much how DD is used that bothers me. He can be very effective when the passing game is established. He's a runner that needs some cover. Its not that we don't need DD, shouldn't use DD, but rather he's by far the best back we have. We need to use him, however, in a way that is successful. He should not be the primary component of the offense. Our receivers and the passing game should be our primary method of attack with the running game being the equalizer when they stack up against the pass. That's the way DD got a lot of his yards last year, but certainly not all of them. When the other team fears our passing game DD will be very affective. Wells, certainly surprised us last week, but I think neither Hollings or Wells are in the same league as DD at this point in time. For all of the talk about injuries to DD, Hollings has not been exactly a Rock of Gilbralter. This is another reason we need to emphasize the pass, because we have more excellent receivers than RB's. A season ending injury to DD would put us in a world of hurt.
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Old 09-29-2004   #19
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What DD is going through right now is all psychologicol. he ran decent in the first two games, but in the KC game you could clearly tell that those fumbles have gotten into his head. He was very hesitent hitting the holes and wasn't his shifty self. I also didn't see the second effort he us known for, probally was afraid somebody would strip the ball. As soon as Davis regains his confidence he will return to his old self. One big knock on Davis though is his speed and how he doesn't rip long tds, but as long as he has a good ypc I'm happy with him. DD is the kinda back that wears down a defense. He is a big brusier back in a small little body who hits the hole, makes one guy miss, breaks a few arm tackles, and fights with the defender before being brought down. Its just two bad he doesn't have more speed. You know watching Preist in sundays game, DD and Preist run alot alike, but Preist has superior speed and thats the difference from being a good quality back and a great back. He also needs to show that he can stay healthy through a whole season. I wouldn't be opposed to having a run by commitee backfield. It would help keep DD healthy and competion at that position is very healthy and brings out the best in each player, yall saw the fire that Wells had last week.
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Old 09-29-2004   #20
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DD is just like JJ, he's too small to play. I say that of course with tongue in cheek. Just as JJ will probably never break one all the way, neither will DD. But day in and day out they will be far more effective than most backs and will consistantly loose very few yards. DD is always going forward. In fact one of the unsong heros of the KC game was JJ. He out performed D Hall as far as I'm concerned. JJ just doesn't make mistakes. He certainly gave us a lot of excellent field position. I feel the same way about DD. But just don't use him on every play. He's not that kind of back.
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