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Old 10-15-2006   #1
Luv_ya_blue
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Exclamation Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

I want to start off by saying that I like Mario and HONESTLY hope that he improves and that he has improved. But IMO, no where nearly enough!!!

I realize that stats aren't everything...but I think that it's time to stop making excuses for MW. He is NOT where any of us had hoped that he would be by this time. I think that we can be honest about his performance WITHOUT BRINGING ANYONE ELSE INTO THE MIX!!! (ie: VY, RB, etc.)

Don't misunderstand this thread...this IS NOT another Mario Sucks thread! NOT MY INTENTION AT ALL!!!

But let shoot straight guys...I did some checking into the stats and MW isn't even in the TOP 60 in the league in sacks!
http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/AFC/SCKS/2006/regular
http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFC/SCKS/2006/regular
http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/SCKS/2006/regular

And compared to a League Leading 50 tackles by Zach Thomas...Mario is sitting at 7 tackles! And before somebody jumps on the "But He's ONLY A Rookie" bologna...he's not in the top 5 in sacks and is NOWHERE NEAR the top of the list in tackles. Mark Anderson DE w/Chicago is leading the sack list with 5.5. And Ernie Sims with DETROIT is leading the tackle list with 43 tackles...followed up by Demeco with 38 tackles!
http://www.nfl.com/rookies/stats

I realize that taking up for MW is more an issue of "saving face" than ANYTHING else...but IMO, it makes us look like we're just riding the ship down. IMO, it makes us look like we simply can't admit that MW was a poor decision (at least at this point). I can't wait to see how many people will say, "You can't judge MW after ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE, OR SIX games...it's ONLY been six games!" Come on guys. MW hasn't done well at all! He's been a HUGE disappointment, IMO.

Let's compare him to other DE's in the draft:

First Round:
#1--Mario Williams
7 T's, 3 A's, 1.5 S's
#13--Kamerion Wimbley (drafted as DE, moved to OLB)
11 T's, 3 A's, 3 S's (in 5 games)
#20--Tamba Hali
11 T's, 2 A's, 2.5 S's (in 4 games)
#32--Mathias Kiwanuku
4 T's, 1 A's, 0 S's (in 4 games)

Second Round:
#63--Darryl Tapp
5 T's, 2 A's, 2 S's (in 4 games)

Third Round:
#71--Chris Gocong
(Played 0 games)
#91--Frostee Rucker
(Played 0 games)
#92--Jason Hatcher
2 T's, 2 A's, .5 S's (4 games)

Fourth Round:
#113--Victor Adeyanju
12 T's, 1 A's, 0 S's (5 games)
#126--Elvis Dumervil
0 T's, 0 A's, 0 S's (1 game)
#127--Ray Edwards
5 T's, 0 A's, 2 S's (5 games)

Fifth Round:
#135--Rob Ninkovich
2 T's, 2 A's, 0 S's (3 games)
#140--Parys Haralson
1 T's, 0 A's, 0 S's (4 games)
#156--Julian Jenkins
1 T's, 0 A's, 0 S's (3 games)
#159--Mark Anderson
7 T's, 2 A's, 5.5 S's (5 games)
#160--Brent Hawkins
4 T's, 1 A's, 0 S's (3 games)

Sixth Round:
#191--Jeremy Mincey
(0 games played)
#197--Melvin Oliver
7 T's, 3 A's, 0 S's (5 games)

Seventh Round:
#213--James Wyche
(0 games played)
#237--Stanley McClover
(0 games played)
#253--Dave Tollefson
(0 games played)

http://www.nfl.com/draft/drafttracker/round/round1
http://www.nfl.com/players

I'd like to have some honest dialogue about MW.
There is NOTHING about Mario that even comes CLOSE to being #1 & First round pick "worthy." I don't want to get into an "I told you so...Mario sucks...we should've taken ___?___." thread. I just don't feel that MW has lived up to his expectation as a #1 pick.

I just think that it's about time to be honest with ourselves and not be so -like with Mario. MW has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH RB, VY, ML, DF, or anyone else.

WE'RE JUST TALKING MARIO!!!!

Thoughts?
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Old 10-15-2006   #2
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

There is a reason he isn't on any top lists as a tackle....defensive linemen don't usually accumulate a lot of tackles. Its just not in the job description. If your expecting him to come in and be higher on the list than demeco ryans in tackles thats unrealistic. Lineman to a linebacker=apples to oranges.

He has a sack and a half. in 5 games. Not stellar, but not a shutout. He is a rookie, and if the theorum about it taking a whole year for a d-lineman to adjust is true, then we are really ahead of the curve. Has he gotten more sacks? No. But he is getting closer. I think he's learning the little tricks to get past the line now. I saw him blow up the tackle and drop julius jones perfectly in the backfield. That is what i believe he can do.

Finally, the sacks to me aren't as important as the amount of times he PRESSURES the opposing qb. If he doesn't get a sack out of the play, but he makes the qb throw it out of bounds im ecstatic. What more could you want but pressure up front?
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Old 10-15-2006   #3
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

Mario is ramping nicely. Stats that are kept for NFL record keeping are only one type of measurement. We ain't winning games and it is easy to get 100 people in a virtual room and see something 77 different ways, but I would bet that most would agree that our rookie DE is incrementally improving. However, the impact and velocity of that improvement is certainly debatable.
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Old 10-15-2006   #4
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

Good post. Mario has shown some flashes but for the most part he has been a dissapiontment. But I think of Yao Ming when I see Mario. Yao was a project his first season and not ready for the big lights of the NBA. But he has developed every season since and now is one of the two best centers in the league. Yao now has the skills and confidence to dominate games. I hope Mario's develops as well. We all knew Mario was young and inexperienced. Hopefully we will see improvement as the seson progresses and as each season passes.
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Old 10-15-2006   #5
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

In my view, Mario had his best game today. Despite no sacks, I thought he played better overall than in the Miami game, and is beginning to also wreak havoc against the run. He still has a LONG ways to go to justify his draft position, but today he looked like he has at least some potential to become an impact player. I thought he made some strides today, and I hope that improvement continues. If so, he might yet justify the selection.
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Old 10-15-2006   #6
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

Im not much for research, so i understand if you don't want to, but it would be interesting to see how those stats of mario's compare to dwight freeneys, or michael strahans, or julius peppers...just to give us a gauge of where his stats put him on a plane with his peers. /two cents.
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Old 10-15-2006   #7
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro View Post
Mario is ramping nicely. Stats that are kept for NFL record keeping are only one type of measurement. We ain't winning games and it is easy to get 100 people in a virtual room and see something 77 different ways, but I would bet that most would agree that our rookie DE is incrementally improving. However, the impact and velocity of that improvement is certainly debatable.
We're talking Texans fans here. You take 100 people and you get 334 opinions on the exact same topic.

Oh, and then you get 1302 offshoot opinions.
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Old 10-15-2006   #8
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

i agree with the yao comparison completely. he's a physical freak whose game is a little behind his body, like yao was. he's basically the exact opposite of demarco who has been fantastic since his game is so polished.

i look at the first couple of games and see confused mario standing around. i look at the last few games and see super mario looking for a fire flower
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Old 10-15-2006   #9
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

Off the top of my head, it appears you are using the first four game stats.

He actually had one of his statistically better games today (no sacks), but if you are just watching his play, it appears that he is improving each game.

Holding the Cowboy defense to 3 points in the first half is an accomplishment. (One that doesn't add up to much in the end, but it shows signs of life). The defense is not talented enough to stay on the field after three turnovers in the second half.

Also, I would suggest that you can't look at players without looking at the surrounding players. For example, Julius Peppers plays on the Dline that is very talented and very deep. With Seth Payne going down for the year, our line is gonna be hating it even more.
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Old 10-15-2006   #10
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

I as well have been disappointed with his performance thus far. I have seen marked improvement, but I do not feel that he has shown enough flashes of greatness to warrent his pick. I was a strong advocate for trading down, and I really felt that Ray Edwards who is also a similar athletic freak would be able to produce just as much at a much better price and draft slot. Mario shows good effort chasing plays down, but I don't feel he should be in that position very often. He needs to be hitting the QB more, even if it's not a sack, just knock him down. He needs to pursure the QB more than the WR's at this point.
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Old 10-15-2006   #11
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

thanks for the stats blue.
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Old 10-15-2006   #12
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

What I think alot of us are forgetting is the time lost having Mario try to learn two positions. Meaning all off-season and pre-season and the first game against Philly. He couldn't focus on one position and improve on it. I don't think I began seeing improvement until he was left alone at DE. I think had we allowed him to focus on just one position he would be where he is now in the Redskins game. Each game after the Philly game he seems to have calmed down and become more aware of what's going on around him. This game Parcells focused in on Mario, in the first few minutes I saw him split a double team, even though he didn't get the tackle I thought that it was well done. Parcells focused on Mario, because honestly he didn't really have to worry about the rest of our line. Weaver and Babin should have had better games considering the Cowboys were lining up up to four people on Mario's side. I'm not saying they sucked, they did alright, but they IMO should have done better. Even with them focusing on Mario he still had an impact and this gives me hope that he will improve.
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Old 10-15-2006   #13
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

Quote:
Originally Posted by swtbound07 View Post
There is a reason he isn't on any top lists as a tackle....defensive linemen don't usually accumulate a lot of tackles. Its just not in the job description. If your expecting him to come in and be higher on the list than demeco ryans in tackles thats unrealistic. Lineman to a linebacker=apples to oranges.

He has a sack and a half. in 5 games. Not stellar, but not a shutout. He is a rookie, and if the theorum about it taking a whole year for a d-lineman to adjust is true, then we are really ahead of the curve. Has he gotten more sacks? No. But he is getting closer. I think he's learning the little tricks to get past the line now. I saw him blow up the tackle and drop julius jones perfectly in the backfield. That is what i believe he can do.

Finally, the sacks to me aren't as important as the amount of times he PRESSURES the opposing qb. If he doesn't get a sack out of the play, but he makes the qb throw it out of bounds im ecstatic. What more could you want but pressure up front?
Agreed.
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Old 10-15-2006   #14
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

Is he meeting the fans expectations? No. Was how his impact was sold to us, or the fans expectations themselves realistic or fair to Mario? Nope.

The guy's shown that he can be a difference maker, and he's steadily improving. I'm happy with him at this point, I was nervous after the first 2 games, but he's turned around considerably since then, IMO. The 1st pick in the draft always gets held under the magnifying glass due to their draft position, and with all of the variability of situations to get drafted into, how the media perceives you, and what position you play, it's REALLY difficult to outshine every other player taken in the draft. You're competing with hundreds of rookies, most of which are in better situations than you, and the fans/media expect you to out-highlight all of them. That's a tall order. Mario got drafted onto a team coming off a 2-14 season, with a new coach and a defensive unit largely devoid of a talented nucleus of players to add to. Alot of the other rookies he's competing with to woo your interests are playing in more stable situations and with better support. Guys like Mario, Anthony Weaver, Demeco Ryans, maybe Dunta...that's the start of our nucleus on that side of the ball IMO. Mario's a great player to build from and I'm still very glad we drafted him. This year's draft looks to be very solid, and if we can have similar drafts the next 2 years we'll be pretty close to making a deep playoff run.
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Old 10-15-2006   #15
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

Ignore this post...
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Old 10-15-2006   #16
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luv_ya_blue View Post
OK...before this turns into ANOTHER MW "lovefest" can we at least recognize the fact that he's hardly lived up to the same numbers as 5 or 6 others drafted to do EXACTLY the same thing as him? Including 2 first rounders, a fourth, fifth and sixth rounder.

I mean, you guys are sort of acting as if "hustle" and "improvement" and "breaking double teams" should be recorded stats too. Come on! If he progresses at the same pace as everyone else in this draft class (on average) at DE, then is THAT really good enough for what we were told MW was supposed to do, and be for us?


It has to be. when his number was called cant change the fact that it takes time to progress. Travis johnson was a non-entity his first year, but is a solid contributor this year. give him 2 seasons.
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Old 10-15-2006   #17
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

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Originally Posted by Luv_ya_blue View Post
I realize that taking up for MW is more an issue of "saving face" than ANYTHING else...but IMO, it makes us look like we're just riding the ship down. IMO, it makes us look like we simply can't admit that MW was a poor decision (at least at this point). I can't wait to see how many people will say, "You can't judge MW after ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE, OR SIX games...it's ONLY been six games!" Come on guys. MW hasn't done well at all! He's been a HUGE disappointment, IMO.
Sorry Blue, it ain't about saving face It was a good decision at the time, and I personally stand by it. I also think Mario had a very good game today.

The thing you've got to understand, is that Mario & Demeco are the first pieces of our defense. These other guys you mention are the final piece, big, big difference. We suck, & have very little talent other than Mario & Demeco on defense.

And it would be hard for any pure DE (not an OLB in a 3-4) to match even a rookie LB in tackles....
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Old 10-15-2006   #18
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

an average day for a DE in this league is 2.5 tackles, no sacks, and 1-2 pressures. a great day is 1 sack, 3 tackles, and 3 pressures. mario had 5 tackles, 3+ pressures, and an unaccounted for tackle behind the LOS (jones bounced off the right side that mario stood up, ending up in a tackle for loss when he was forced to bounce back inside). seriously, find another scapegoat, mario had a great day for an NFL DE, let alone a 5 game rookie.

if you want to criticize mario to me, break down the preseason, and first 3 games, and compare his play throughout the process. "mario is a #1 pick and didnt get get 12 sacks by game 5" doesnt fly with football fans.

LYB, i know damn well that you're not new and that you're well versed. which means you know damn well that statistics dont mean anything to defensive linemen unless you're talking to someone from espn. if mario forced 30 turnovers and had 500 pressures and qb hits ... he's a bust if his 1.5 sacks dont compare to ware's 10 sacks and no other contributions. (i'm exaggerating to make a point). mario had his best game to date, but because he didnt get the sack, his contributions go unnoticed by the uninformed.

as for being "an immediate impact". i never heard that, i think the phrase was created by fans. mario is a physical phenom, but a project as a football player. his developement has actually been very impressive considering the low base mentally (football-wise) that he came from and by this time next year should be the major impact. where it was said that he'd come into the league as the best player ever, i never saw.

i always appreciate your threads and opinions LYB so here's my basic response to your intent. mario williams is exactly what i hoped he'd be and i'd pick him again. at 21 year's old without much of a training program he's shown that he can overpower tackles. he's able to outrun runningbacks. he hasnt given up on plays and will chase until the whistle blows which puts the "lazy" remarks to rest. his mental progress is blatently obvious. his technique leaves plenty to be desired but it's exactly as i expected. again, i'd take him first overall. i dont say that as a texans' fan, i say it as a football fan. leinert, cutler, bush, & young arent on my draft radar. without trading down (which was obviously impossible), mario & d'brick are the only ones i look at in the top 5.
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Old 10-15-2006   #19
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

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Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
an average day for a DE in this league is 2.5 tackles, no sacks, and 1-2 pressures. a great day is 1 sack, 3 tackles, and 3 pressures. mario had 5 tackles, 3+ pressures, and an unaccounted for tackle behind the LOS (jones bounced off the right side that mario stood up, ending up in a tackle for loss when he was forced to bounce back inside). seriously, find another scapegoat, mario had a great day for an NFL DE, let alone a 5 game rookie.
Well said.

There are so many more serious concerns with the team, without cracking on one of the few bright spots of the day.

The Texans held the Cowboys to 3 points in the first half. They are not good enough of a defense to deal with the short fields that come with not taking care of the football and staying of the field after repeated 3 and outs.

And it ain't going to be any easier with Seth Payne out given our DT situation.
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Old 10-15-2006   #20
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
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Default Re: Don't Shoot The Messenger... [:-o>

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Originally Posted by Luv_ya_blue View Post
OK...before this turns into ANOTHER MW "lovefest" can we at least recognize the fact that he's hardly lived up to the same numbers as 5 or 6 others drafted to do EXACTLY the same thing as him? Including 2 first rounders, a fourth, fifth and sixth rounder.

I mean, you guys are sort of acting as if "hustle" and "improvement" and "breaking double teams" should be recorded stats too. Come on! If he progresses at the same pace as everyone else in this draft class (on average) at DE, then is THAT really good enough for what we were told MW was supposed to do, and be for us?

He now has 12 Solo tackles, 4 assists, (16 total), and 1.5 sacks....

that's not bad at all.
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