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Old 10-09-2006   #1
Texans_Chick
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Default A Theory About The Run Blocking

Please talk me out of a theory. I wrote about it some after this Leach pick up.

I believe that the meshing of the Green Bay power run game with the Denver style zone blocking isn't working. I haven't read anybody talking about this but it doesn't mean it isn't real.

I don't think that this is the only problem with the run game, but I think that the Green Bay/Denver stuff doesn't mesh well together, require different personnel, and takes away aspect of the Denver offense that is supposed to keep defenses off-balance.

IIRC, the Green Bay stuff started showing up more during the Denver preseason game. I thought it was just stuff they were doing because they were facing a defense more familiar with the Texans playbook than the Texans, but they've kept running it.

To explain this whole subject further, here is my entire post on this subject: Denver Zone + Green Bay Power = No Texans Running Game?

Okay, am I imagining this, or are others seeing this too? I've been thinking about this for a while, but after Kubiak's comments today about the running game and the signing of Leach, it seems like the offense suffers from having a schizo kinda philosophy, requiring more skill with Kubiak stuff and more power with Sherman stuff and different types of personnel.

Sometimes things blend to make something worse, and then sometimes blending two different things together makes something better, like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. mmmmm.
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Old 10-09-2006   #2
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

We don't have the personnel to run a pure power blocking or zone-blocking scheme. It all revolves around the tackles, until we get some with good footwork, ie Spencer, power blocking is going to be a part of our game.
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Old 10-10-2006   #3
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

I think the biggest problem is that we're using alot of O Linemen from the 2005 season, statistically one of our worst blocking years. To expect such a turn around in 1 year would be revolutionary to say the least, so I reserve final judgment til we can actually see what Kubiak can do in time. Also, dont think that who we have at RB doesnt have anything to do with our sub par running game at this time . . .
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Old 10-10-2006   #4
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

Maybe I just imagined it, but during pre-season when we ran a running play, it looked like the line flowed one way or the other and the back would follow and then cut back against the grain. Seemed to work pretty well. Since then, it has looked like we were doing a sort of straight forward power style blocking and it isn't working worth a toot.
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Old 10-10-2006   #5
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

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Originally Posted by [[Gary Kubiak]] View Post
Why is Fread weary not at RG?
last i checked, he WAS at RG starting unless he got injured . . .
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Old 10-10-2006   #6
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
Please talk me out of a theory. I wrote about it some after this Leach pick up.

I believe that the meshing of the Green Bay power run game with the Denver style zone blocking isn't working. I haven't read anybody talking about this but it doesn't mean it isn't real.

I don't think that this is the only problem with the run game, but I think that the Green Bay/Denver stuff doesn't mesh well together, require different personnel, and takes away aspect of the Denver offense that is supposed to keep defenses off-balance.

IIRC, the Green Bay stuff started showing up more during the Denver preseason game. I thought it was just stuff they were doing because they were facing a defense more familiar with the Texans playbook than the Texans, but they've kept running it.

To explain this whole subject further, here is my entire post on this subject: Denver Zone + Green Bay Power = No Texans Running Game?

Okay, am I imagining this, or are others seeing this too? I've been thinking about this for a while, but after Kubiak's comments today about the running game and the signing of Leach, it seems like the offense suffers from having a schizo kinda philosophy, requiring more skill with Kubiak stuff and more power with Sherman stuff and different types of personnel.

Sometimes things blend to make something worse, and then sometimes blending two different things together makes something better, like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. mmmmm.
I have a totally different theory. The problem is every team knows Kubiak is going to run, run, run the ball. If he's not successful he's going to run, run, run, the ball. Now that is perception some of you will say. The problem is that is what every team thinks of when you play a Denver or a Denver graduate. The end result is the look for the run 1st and the pass 2nd. They also know that you do not have to fear our RB's.

What you do have to fear on this team is the passing attack. I have said repeatidly that this team has to set up its passing game and pass until the other team believes we really are going to pass the ball come hell or high water. At that point we can run and be effective. Over the last several years we have had a problem protecting the QB because the zone blocking scheme is a running scheme that is not designed to protect the passer. You can not run two different schemes and not expect the defense to key on what you are doing. That means you have to pass out of the zone in order to not tip off the play. End result has been that Carr has taken a whipping. This may be why you are seeing more of Sherman's style of O-line play, because like Farve they are trying to protect David.

We need to be more like the Colts than Denver as we have a lot of personnel like the Colts. Their strengths lie in their QB and their receivers. That is our strength as well. I'm not going to argue degrees of difference I'm just saying what we look like when compared to other teams. We have not had the RB's of Denver and there is not much we can do about it. DD was a great find and there is no question that if he were healthy we would have a running attack. He's not and there is simply nothing we can do about that right now. We have to be more affective with what we have and realize that is the way it is this year. Make a believers out of the other teams. The Colts certainly have. Why can't we?

Its called adapting and overcoming. Our coaches simply need to relax and do what our personnel can do best. Even AJ has commented on this in his locker room interviews and Moulds has even sort of hinted at it, but is less likely to say something. I think the team knows we can generate a lot of fear in the other teams if we will only use our strength. Use the passing game like a running game.

Last week against the Titans Manning was averaging something like 3 yards a reception or less through about the 1st 3 qtrs. I couldn't believe it so I went back and looked at the numbers. That is what they are doing. They are simply trying to get the balls to backs and others beyound the line of scrimmage. That is one way to deal with an ineffective O-line. AJ, Walters, Putzer, Daniels are a healthy load to bring down. Moulds is more of an elusive type person who, if open, can still burn you for a lot of yards. Nobody can see the tree for the forest, however. Again do what you are, not what you are not.
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Old 10-10-2006   #7
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

I had not idea we were trying to "mesh" the two types of styles in the first place or if that's even accurate. Not like I'm questioning your credibility cause I know you're out there all the time, but could you elaborate on this? Just cause we brought in Leach and Gado doesn't mean we're trying to mesh the two together. I thought Kubiak would stick purely with the Alex Gibbs philosophy, and being from Denver, I thought he'd be able to help Sherman with it. It really makes me wonder WTF they're doing right now, cause they're jumping and playing with backs like they're in an all-you-can-eat or something. The front office looks like they're panicking over our lack of running game right now.

For now, we just need to fix this runblocking cause it really ain't working right now. Granted, our backs haven't helped the line out, but I'm not sure that going Christmas shopping is the right thing to do right now.
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Old 10-10-2006   #8
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

im not too sure of the combination of the two schemes is whats hurting us. i do see alot more zone blocking than a power type of running. i really like the idea of 'meshing' the two together though because i believe we have both types of backs on the roster (and IMO our backs can do a little bit of both, except gado who needs a little more work with the zone blocking).

its kind of interesting to see our interior lineman moving up to the next level doing the zone schemes and on the next play we run a counter trap. it does throw the defense off a little bit too but i wouldnt be ready to state that this is the reason for our weak running game.

in fact im not even sure that you can theorize about what the heck is wrong with us - especially if you look back at our preseason. in yards per game, rushing average, total yards, touchdowns, and first downs we were top 10 in every category during the preseason. now we are ranked 29th, 30th, 31st, 32nd, and 29th respectively.

basically, i cant disprove your theory. but i cant confirm it either. maybe we just needed the bye week to gather ourselves. i think over the next couple of weeks we will have a better look at our running game.
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Old 10-10-2006   #9
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

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Originally Posted by phan1 View Post
I had not idea we were trying to "mesh" the two types of styles in the first place or if that's even accurate.
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Maybe I just imagined it, but during pre-season when we ran a running play, it looked like the line flowed one way or the other and the back would follow and then cut back against the grain. Seemed to work pretty well. Since then, it has looked like we were doing a sort of straight forward power style blocking and it isn't working worth a toot.
I think edo has it about right. The o-line in the Denver style starts the flow and goes with it. The o-line in our hybrid style starts the flow and then tries to square up on their man and push them perpendicular to the line of scrimmage.

Although probably oversimplified, that is it in a nutshell.

The question is, why did our blocking look so different in pre-season? I think during the pre-season we were trying to do the same things as now, but then we were able to do it. We were able to start the flow going well in one direction before we squared up. Now that the games count the d-lineman seem to be resisiting that flow much better and we aren't getting the angled/sideways movement.
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Old 10-10-2006   #10
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

I think the poor production is caused by three factors .

First is the new scheme . It takes time to learn the finer nuances of the ZBS . It is quite different from what most players have done since they were kids which is put a hat on a hat and try to beat the guy in front of you into the turf . Now they are trying to block the first man and get off of that block and get to the second level be it a LB or DB .

Second being new players working together. The O-line is probably the part of the team that requires the most continuity . We cant expect this to happen overnight . There is only one player playing at the same position he ended last season in Zach Wiegert and if I remember correctly he bagan last year at the right guard spot not right tackle.
This means four new starters at five positions along the line with McKinney and Pitts changing positions as well as Flannagan and Salaam coming over via FA . Its going to take them at least half a season if not longer to put it together as a unit .

Third is the lack of the type of back who will excell in the system . I dont think Dayne and Gado are suitable for the ZBS and are better suited to a more power type game . Imagine either running behind the Steelers O-line , I could see them doing very well in that scheme . They are more straight ahead runners than guy's who are going to make a quick cut and pick up large chunks of yards.
Wali Lundy may be better suited to the system than the other two but he's not the perfect fit and he is wet behind the ears . Before he see's considerable playing time he will have to get better at picking up the blitz and reading the running lanes .

There is no quick fix .... Unless you could pull off a fantasy trade for LaDainian Tomlinson who I think would be the perfect back for the system and is good enough to make up for the short comings of the O-line .
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Old 10-10-2006   #11
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

Spencer Tillman broke it down a little on Sunday night. In the Green Bay running style,(which he noticed we're using more), the gap between the linemen is different than with ZB. My take:stick with the ZB.
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Old 10-10-2006   #12
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

IMO, Kubiak is his own 'worse' enemy in this scenario. From day one, Gary said a 'primary' goal was to put players in a 'position' to excel by using their strengths. This would mean looking at the players already here and designing 'schemes' around what they are best at now, eventually meshing-over time-personnel with 'play' to fully implement Kubiak's 'ultimate ' offense/defense.

Instead, Gary implemented 'what' he wanted and expected the players to adapt to it, a much longer process to try and achieve with an 'entire' team of players-all at once-trying to learn/execute things they've never done before. IMO, the 'meshing' was to be what we did in '05 that worked with 'tweaks' of the new stuff that players could adapt to in a short period of time to produce a team that would have a better 'chance' to compete in '06. Then, move the process along in '07 to get even closer to full implementation of Kubiak's defense/offense/ST.

We would not expect to go to the SB 'over night' in any scenario, but at least we would not be trying to start from 'scratch' all over again, and could still compete during the transition. Too, it would take awhile to get all the players that Kubiak wants which-in itself-'translates' into slow process.

Kubiak had a team meeting with the players on Monday-starters will remain the same-what will change? Gary told the players that he and the coaches must put players in positions to succeed on the field---DUH.....

I don't know why this 'line of thought' (heard on day one) was never implemented--sounded good then--but does it sound as good now? Personally, I'm left with an 'uncomfortable' feeling about a person telling us what we want to hear but doing something different on the field...

How will this season play out? Wins, even competitive losses would be nice, but-if IMO, the year ends without having started/built a solid foundation to build on for '07, then..... :brick wall
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Old 10-10-2006   #13
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

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Originally Posted by MightyTExan View Post
Spencer Tillman broke it down a little on Sunday night. In the Green Bay running style,(which he noticed we're using more), the gap between the linemen is different than with ZB. My take:stick with the ZB.
Take every thing you hear from Spencer with a grain of salt. He has a gig. He's a happy man. He did make a good call on the splits. I had missed it. Spencer's not going to dig a latrine next to the rice bowl though. How many games have we gone with the same five guys lining up next to each other ? How many early day one draft picks are on this line ? How many all pros, the elite of the elite ? At least now, we have enough depth built up we lose a front line guy for the year, two go down with injuries , we can sweat one out against a bad team. I don't think it has anything to do with schemes. We've gone against four good defensive coaches with good personel and had our heads shoved up our south end. There are supposed to be cut back lanes in the ZBS. I haven't seen any. Have you ? Wether it's a function of lack of tallent or lack of will, your guess is as good as mine. Sooner or latter these guys are going to make or break. Sooner or latter this team will leave the pretty skill guys alone in the first round and draft some premier big uglies.
Minnesota is struggling too. With Hutchinson & McKinnie. Which of this two franchises do you honestly expect to turn their running game around for the remainder of the season ? Joppur goes to the PS and we pick up a 250 pound fullback ? Uh huh. That'll work. Once the threat of the fullback in the flat has been removed, the passing game will become dicey. Might be they're junking the ZBS till next year. Fit the scheme to your personel. Do what you can do.

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Old 10-10-2006   #14
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Last week against the Titans Manning was averaging something like 3 yards a reception or less through about the 1st 3 qtrs. I couldn't believe it so I went back and looked at the numbers. That is what they are doing. They are simply trying to get the balls to backs and others beyound the line of scrimmage. That is one way to deal with an ineffective O-line. AJ, Walters, Putzer, Daniels are a healthy load to bring down. Moulds is more of an elusive type person who, if open, can still burn you for a lot of yards. Nobody can see the tree for the forest, however. Again do what you are, not what you are not.
You know....that sounds good.......

BUT you have to ask yourself ....is Carr that type of QB ??

Let's not be fooled by his stats this year...Even Carr has said that this offense is easy...And what you'd be askin him to do is be more like Peyton, or Brady, or Palmer....I don't neccessarily think Carr can run an offense that complex...
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Old 10-10-2006   #15
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The question is, why did our blocking look so different in pre-season? I think during the pre-season we were trying to do the same things as now, but then we were able to do it. We were able to start the flow going well in one direction before we squared up. Now that the games count the d-lineman seem to be resisiting that flow much better and we aren't getting the the angled/sideways movement.
I don't think thats it...I haven't watched the film but my guess would be that we still are running ZBS...ZBS isn't just stretch right or stretch left....A play can go straight up the middle and be 'zone blocked'....

My Theory: We are still running ZBS....We have two totally different backs than what we had in the pre-season...Neither are the kind of portis, lundy, morency, tatum bell kind of quick back that can use their quickness to make the one cut and go required for the stretch...They are both better suited for straight ahead running...breaking tackles...not being elusive....So they can use their body weight and get a good forward lean....You don't really want your bigger backs running sideways....You let your quick guys run sideways because they can find the hole and make a quick cut....You want to get your bigger backs with their body going forward....

*I don't know if we've been running ZBS because I didn't re-watch the game....But I would bet that we have been
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Old 10-10-2006   #16
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

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I think edo has it about right. The o-line in the Denver style starts the flow and goes with it. The o-line in our hybrid style starts the flow and then tries to square up on their man and push them perpendicular to the line of scrimmage.

Although probably oversimplified, that is it in a nutshell.

The question is, why did our blocking look so different in pre-season? I think during the pre-season we were trying to do the same things as now, but then we were able to do it. We were able to start the flow going well in one direction before we squared up. Now that the games count the d-lineman seem to be resisiting that flow much better and we aren't getting the angled/sideways movement.
The only thing I know for a fact that is different right now is in the preseason we had Smith, Lundy, and Morency running the ball, and in the preseason all 3 of them averaged 5.5 yards per carry or better. As of right now it's Gado and Dayne splitting the carries.
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Old 10-10-2006   #17
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

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The only thing I know for a fact that is different right now is in the preseason we had Smith, Lundy, and Morency running the ball, and in the preseason all 3 of them averaged 5.5 yards per carry or better. As of right now it's Gado and Dayne splitting the carries.
Good point. I think that has some effect too, but the line isn't getting the movement to start things off. Our RBs don't seem to be doing anything to help them out if something opens up either.
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Old 10-10-2006   #18
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

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What you do have to fear on this team is the passing attack. I have said repeatidly that this team has to set up its passing game and pass until the other team believes we really are going to pass the ball come hell or high water. At that point we can run and be effective.

Yeah, that Kubiak is one stubborn cuss.

The only time we came close to balancing our attack, we win the game.

Other than that, we've passed more than we've run the ball. & we've run the ball well, more times than not, except in the one win.

Philly:
1st half
33 snaps 11 runs (18 yards ) 22 passing plays.

2nd half
22 snaps 5 runs (25 yards)

Indy
1st half
27 snaps 13 runs (51 yards) 14 passing plays

2nd half
26 snaps 7 runs (46 yards) 19 passing plays

Washington
1st half
28 plays 10 runs (38 yards) 18 passing plays

2nd half
23 plays 5 runs (20 yards) 18 passing plays

Miami
1st Half
27 plays 12 runs (26 yards) 15 passing plays

2nd Half
37 plays 16 runs (26 yards) 21 passing plays.
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Old 10-10-2006   #19
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Yeah, that Kubiak is one stubborn cuss.

The only time we came close to balancing our attack, we win the game.

Other than that, we've passed more than we've run the ball. & we've run the ball well, more times than not, except in the one win.

Philly:
1st half
33 snaps 11 runs (18 yards ) 22 passing plays.

2nd half
22 snaps 5 runs (25 yards)

Indy
1st half
27 snaps 13 runs (51 yards) 14 passing plays

2nd half
26 snaps 7 runs (46 yards) 19 passing plays

Washington
1st half
28 plays 10 runs (38 yards) 18 passing plays

2nd half
23 plays 5 runs (20 yards) 18 passing plays

Miami
1st Half
27 plays 12 runs (26 yards) 15 passing plays

2nd Half
37 plays 16 runs (26 yards) 21 passing plays.

I think what Ibar is saying is we need to stick to our pass game to open up the run, continue passing when it is working, and that if the running game is not working we need to throw the ball. There is no need to keep trying to run the ball when it's not working, and it hasn't worked all season.
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Old 10-10-2006   #20
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Default Re: A Theory About The Run Blocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
I don't think thats it...I haven't watched the film but my guess would be that we still are running ZBS...ZBS isn't just stretch right or stretch left....A play can go straight up the middle and be 'zone blocked'....

My Theory: We are still running ZBS....We have two totally different backs than what we had in the pre-season...Neither are the kind of portis, lundy, morency, tatum bell kind of quick back that can use their quickness to make the one cut and go required for the stretch...They are both better suited for straight ahead running...breaking tackles...not being elusive....So they can use their body weight and get a good forward lean....You don't really want your bigger backs running sideways....You let your quick guys run sideways because they can find the hole and make a quick cut....You want to get your bigger backs with their body going forward....

*I don't know if we've been running ZBS because I didn't re-watch the game....But I would bet that we have been
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279 View Post
I think what Ibar is saying is we need to stick to our pass game to open up the run, continue passing when it is working, and that if the running game is not working we need to throw the ball. There is no need to keep trying to run the ball when it's not working, and it hasn't worked all season.
I think you'd be askin a lot out of David...
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