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A Theory About The Run Blocking

Texans_Chick

Texans_Chick

Utopian Dreamer
Please talk me out of a theory. I wrote about it some after this Leach pick up.

I believe that the meshing of the Green Bay power run game with the Denver style zone blocking isn't working. I haven't read anybody talking about this but it doesn't mean it isn't real.

I don't think that this is the only problem with the run game, but I think that the Green Bay/Denver stuff doesn't mesh well together, require different personnel, and takes away aspect of the Denver offense that is supposed to keep defenses off-balance.

IIRC, the Green Bay stuff started showing up more during the Denver preseason game. I thought it was just stuff they were doing because they were facing a defense more familiar with the Texans playbook than the Texans, but they've kept running it.

To explain this whole subject further, here is my entire post on this subject: Denver Zone + Green Bay Power = No Texans Running Game?

Okay, am I imagining this, or are others seeing this too? I've been thinking about this for a while, but after Kubiak's comments today about the running game and the signing of Leach, it seems like the offense suffers from having a schizo kinda philosophy, requiring more skill with Kubiak stuff and more power with Sherman stuff and different types of personnel.

Sometimes things blend to make something worse, and then sometimes blending two different things together makes something better, like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. mmmmm.
 
We don't have the personnel to run a pure power blocking or zone-blocking scheme. It all revolves around the tackles, until we get some with good footwork, ie Spencer, power blocking is going to be a part of our game.
 
I think the biggest problem is that we're using alot of O Linemen from the 2005 season, statistically one of our worst blocking years. To expect such a turn around in 1 year would be revolutionary to say the least, so I reserve final judgment til we can actually see what Kubiak can do in time. Also, dont think that who we have at RB doesnt have anything to do with our sub par running game at this time . . .
 
Maybe I just imagined it, but during pre-season when we ran a running play, it looked like the line flowed one way or the other and the back would follow and then cut back against the grain. Seemed to work pretty well. Since then, it has looked like we were doing a sort of straight forward power style blocking and it isn't working worth a toot.
 
Texans_Chick said:
Please talk me out of a theory. I wrote about it some after this Leach pick up.

I believe that the meshing of the Green Bay power run game with the Denver style zone blocking isn't working. I haven't read anybody talking about this but it doesn't mean it isn't real.

I don't think that this is the only problem with the run game, but I think that the Green Bay/Denver stuff doesn't mesh well together, require different personnel, and takes away aspect of the Denver offense that is supposed to keep defenses off-balance.

IIRC, the Green Bay stuff started showing up more during the Denver preseason game. I thought it was just stuff they were doing because they were facing a defense more familiar with the Texans playbook than the Texans, but they've kept running it.

To explain this whole subject further, here is my entire post on this subject: Denver Zone + Green Bay Power = No Texans Running Game?

Okay, am I imagining this, or are others seeing this too? I've been thinking about this for a while, but after Kubiak's comments today about the running game and the signing of Leach, it seems like the offense suffers from having a schizo kinda philosophy, requiring more skill with Kubiak stuff and more power with Sherman stuff and different types of personnel.

Sometimes things blend to make something worse, and then sometimes blending two different things together makes something better, like a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. mmmmm.
Click to expand...

I have a totally different theory. The problem is every team knows Kubiak is going to run, run, run the ball. If he's not successful he's going to run, run, run, the ball. Now that is perception some of you will say. The problem is that is what every team thinks of when you play a Denver or a Denver graduate. The end result is the look for the run 1st and the pass 2nd. They also know that you do not have to fear our RB's.

What you do have to fear on this team is the passing attack. I have said repeatidly that this team has to set up its passing game and pass until the other team believes we really are going to pass the ball come hell or high water. At that point we can run and be effective. Over the last several years we have had a problem protecting the QB because the zone blocking scheme is a running scheme that is not designed to protect the passer. You can not run two different schemes and not expect the defense to key on what you are doing. That means you have to pass out of the zone in order to not tip off the play. End result has been that Carr has taken a whipping. This may be why you are seeing more of Sherman's style of O-line play, because like Farve they are trying to protect David.

We need to be more like the Colts than Denver as we have a lot of personnel like the Colts. Their strengths lie in their QB and their receivers. That is our strength as well. I'm not going to argue degrees of difference I'm just saying what we look like when compared to other teams. We have not had the RB's of Denver and there is not much we can do about it. DD was a great find and there is no question that if he were healthy we would have a running attack. He's not and there is simply nothing we can do about that right now. We have to be more affective with what we have and realize that is the way it is this year. Make a believers out of the other teams. The Colts certainly have. Why can't we?

Its called adapting and overcoming. Our coaches simply need to relax and do what our personnel can do best. Even AJ has commented on this in his locker room interviews and Moulds has even sort of hinted at it, but is less likely to say something. I think the team knows we can generate a lot of fear in the other teams if we will only use our strength. Use the passing game like a running game.

Last week against the Titans Manning was averaging something like 3 yards a reception or less through about the 1st 3 qtrs. I couldn't believe it so I went back and looked at the numbers. That is what they are doing. They are simply trying to get the balls to backs and others beyound the line of scrimmage. That is one way to deal with an ineffective O-line. AJ, Walters, Putzer, Daniels are a healthy load to bring down. Moulds is more of an elusive type person who, if open, can still burn you for a lot of yards. Nobody can see the tree for the forest, however. Again do what you are, not what you are not.
 
I had not idea we were trying to "mesh" the two types of styles in the first place or if that's even accurate. Not like I'm questioning your credibility cause I know you're out there all the time, but could you elaborate on this? Just cause we brought in Leach and Gado doesn't mean we're trying to mesh the two together. I thought Kubiak would stick purely with the Alex Gibbs philosophy, and being from Denver, I thought he'd be able to help Sherman with it. It really makes me wonder WTF they're doing right now, cause they're jumping and playing with backs like they're in an all-you-can-eat or something. The front office looks like they're panicking over our lack of running game right now.

For now, we just need to fix this runblocking cause it really ain't working right now. Granted, our backs haven't helped the line out, but I'm not sure that going Christmas shopping is the right thing to do right now.
 
im not too sure of the combination of the two schemes is whats hurting us. i do see alot more zone blocking than a power type of running. i really like the idea of 'meshing' the two together though because i believe we have both types of backs on the roster (and IMO our backs can do a little bit of both, except gado who needs a little more work with the zone blocking).

its kind of interesting to see our interior lineman moving up to the next level doing the zone schemes and on the next play we run a counter trap. it does throw the defense off a little bit too but i wouldnt be ready to state that this is the reason for our weak running game.

in fact im not even sure that you can theorize about what the heck is wrong with us - especially if you look back at our preseason. in yards per game, rushing average, total yards, touchdowns, and first downs we were top 10 in every category during the preseason. now we are ranked 29th, 30th, 31st, 32nd, and 29th respectively.

basically, i cant disprove your theory. but i cant confirm it either. maybe we just needed the bye week to gather ourselves. i think over the next couple of weeks we will have a better look at our running game.
 
phan1 said:
I had not idea we were trying to "mesh" the two types of styles in the first place or if that's even accurate.
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edo783 said:
Maybe I just imagined it, but during pre-season when we ran a running play, it looked like the line flowed one way or the other and the back would follow and then cut back against the grain. Seemed to work pretty well. Since then, it has looked like we were doing a sort of straight forward power style blocking and it isn't working worth a toot.
Click to expand...

I think edo has it about right. The o-line in the Denver style starts the flow and goes with it. The o-line in our hybrid style starts the flow and then tries to square up on their man and push them perpendicular to the line of scrimmage.

Although probably oversimplified, that is it in a nutshell.

The question is, why did our blocking look so different in pre-season? I think during the pre-season we were trying to do the same things as now, but then we were able to do it. We were able to start the flow going well in one direction before we squared up. Now that the games count the d-lineman seem to be resisiting that flow much better and we aren't getting the angled/sideways movement.
 
I think the poor production is caused by three factors .

First is the new scheme . It takes time to learn the finer nuances of the ZBS . It is quite different from what most players have done since they were kids which is put a hat on a hat and try to beat the guy in front of you into the turf . Now they are trying to block the first man and get off of that block and get to the second level be it a LB or DB .

Second being new players working together. The O-line is probably the part of the team that requires the most continuity . We cant expect this to happen overnight . There is only one player playing at the same position he ended last season in Zach Wiegert and if I remember correctly he bagan last year at the right guard spot not right tackle.
This means four new starters at five positions along the line with McKinney and Pitts changing positions as well as Flannagan and Salaam coming over via FA . Its going to take them at least half a season if not longer to put it together as a unit .

Third is the lack of the type of back who will excell in the system . I dont think Dayne and Gado are suitable for the ZBS and are better suited to a more power type game . Imagine either running behind the Steelers O-line , I could see them doing very well in that scheme . They are more straight ahead runners than guy's who are going to make a quick cut and pick up large chunks of yards.
Wali Lundy may be better suited to the system than the other two but he's not the perfect fit and he is wet behind the ears . Before he see's considerable playing time he will have to get better at picking up the blitz and reading the running lanes .

There is no quick fix .... Unless you could pull off a fantasy trade for LaDainian Tomlinson who I think would be the perfect back for the system and is good enough to make up for the short comings of the O-line . :stirpot:
 
Spencer Tillman broke it down a little on Sunday night. In the Green Bay running style,(which he noticed we're using more), the gap between the linemen is different than with ZB. My take:stick with the ZB.
 
IMO, Kubiak is his own 'worse' enemy in this scenario. From day one, Gary said a 'primary' goal was to put players in a 'position' to excel by using their strengths. This would mean looking at the players already here and designing 'schemes' around what they are best at now, eventually meshing-over time-personnel with 'play' to fully implement Kubiak's 'ultimate ' offense/defense.

Instead, Gary implemented 'what' he wanted and expected the players to adapt to it, a much longer process to try and achieve with an 'entire' team of players-all at once-trying to learn/execute things they've never done before. IMO, the 'meshing' was to be what we did in '05 that worked with 'tweaks' of the new stuff that players could adapt to in a short period of time to produce a team that would have a better 'chance' to compete in '06. Then, move the process along in '07 to get even closer to full implementation of Kubiak's defense/offense/ST.

We would not expect to go to the SB 'over night' in any scenario, but at least we would not be trying to start from 'scratch' all over again, and could still compete during the transition. Too, it would take awhile to get all the players that Kubiak wants which-in itself-'translates' into slow process.

Kubiak had a team meeting with the players on Monday-starters will remain the same-what will change? Gary told the players that he and the coaches must put players in positions to succeed on the field---DUH.....

I don't know why this 'line of thought' (heard on day one) was never implemented--sounded good then--but does it sound as good now? Personally, I'm left with an 'uncomfortable' feeling about a person telling us what we want to hear but doing something different on the field...

How will this season play out? Wins, even competitive losses would be nice, but-if IMO, the year ends without having started/built a solid foundation to build on for '07, then.....:hides: :confused: :brick wall
 
MightyTExan said:
Spencer Tillman broke it down a little on Sunday night. In the Green Bay running style,(which he noticed we're using more), the gap between the linemen is different than with ZB. My take:stick with the ZB.
Click to expand...

Take every thing you hear from Spencer with a grain of salt. He has a gig. He's a happy man. He did make a good call on the splits. I had missed it. Spencer's not going to dig a latrine next to the rice bowl though. How many games have we gone with the same five guys lining up next to each other ? How many early day one draft picks are on this line ? How many all pros, the elite of the elite ? At least now, we have enough depth built up we lose a front line guy for the year, two go down with injuries , we can sweat one out against a bad team. I don't think it has anything to do with schemes. We've gone against four good defensive coaches with good personel and had our heads shoved up our south end. There are supposed to be cut back lanes in the ZBS. I haven't seen any. Have you ? Wether it's a function of lack of tallent or lack of will, your guess is as good as mine. Sooner or latter these guys are going to make or break. Sooner or latter this team will leave the pretty skill guys alone in the first round and draft some premier big uglies.
Minnesota is struggling too. With Hutchinson & McKinnie. Which of this two franchises do you honestly expect to turn their running game around for the remainder of the season ? Joppur goes to the PS and we pick up a 250 pound fullback ? Uh huh. That'll work. Once the threat of the fullback in the flat has been removed, the passing game will become dicey. Might be they're junking the ZBS till next year. Fit the scheme to your personel. Do what you can do.
 
Ibar_Harry said:
Last week against the Titans Manning was averaging something like 3 yards a reception or less through about the 1st 3 qtrs. I couldn't believe it so I went back and looked at the numbers. That is what they are doing. They are simply trying to get the balls to backs and others beyound the line of scrimmage. That is one way to deal with an ineffective O-line. AJ, Walters, Putzer, Daniels are a healthy load to bring down. Moulds is more of an elusive type person who, if open, can still burn you for a lot of yards. Nobody can see the tree for the forest, however. Again do what you are, not what you are not.
Click to expand...

You know....that sounds good.......

BUT you have to ask yourself ....is Carr that type of QB ??

Let's not be fooled by his stats this year...Even Carr has said that this offense is easy...And what you'd be askin him to do is be more like Peyton, or Brady, or Palmer....I don't neccessarily think Carr can run an offense that complex...
 
Runner said:
The question is, why did our blocking look so different in pre-season? I think during the pre-season we were trying to do the same things as now, but then we were able to do it. We were able to start the flow going well in one direction before we squared up. Now that the games count the d-lineman seem to be resisiting that flow much better and we aren't getting the the angled/sideways movement.
Click to expand...

I don't think thats it...I haven't watched the film but my guess would be that we still are running ZBS...ZBS isn't just stretch right or stretch left....A play can go straight up the middle and be 'zone blocked'....

My Theory: We are still running ZBS....We have two totally different backs than what we had in the pre-season...Neither are the kind of portis, lundy, morency, tatum bell kind of quick back that can use their quickness to make the one cut and go required for the stretch...They are both better suited for straight ahead running...breaking tackles...not being elusive....So they can use their body weight and get a good forward lean....You don't really want your bigger backs running sideways....You let your quick guys run sideways because they can find the hole and make a quick cut....You want to get your bigger backs with their body going forward....

*I don't know if we've been running ZBS because I didn't re-watch the game....But I would bet that we have been
 
Runner said:
I think edo has it about right. The o-line in the Denver style starts the flow and goes with it. The o-line in our hybrid style starts the flow and then tries to square up on their man and push them perpendicular to the line of scrimmage.

Although probably oversimplified, that is it in a nutshell.

The question is, why did our blocking look so different in pre-season? I think during the pre-season we were trying to do the same things as now, but then we were able to do it. We were able to start the flow going well in one direction before we squared up. Now that the games count the d-lineman seem to be resisiting that flow much better and we aren't getting the angled/sideways movement.
Click to expand...

The only thing I know for a fact that is different right now is in the preseason we had Smith, Lundy, and Morency running the ball, and in the preseason all 3 of them averaged 5.5 yards per carry or better. As of right now it's Gado and Dayne splitting the carries.
 
texan279 said:
The only thing I know for a fact that is different right now is in the preseason we had Smith, Lundy, and Morency running the ball, and in the preseason all 3 of them averaged 5.5 yards per carry or better. As of right now it's Gado and Dayne splitting the carries.
Click to expand...

Good point. I think that has some effect too, but the line isn't getting the movement to start things off. Our RBs don't seem to be doing anything to help them out if something opens up either.
 
Ibar_Harry said:
What you do have to fear on this team is the passing attack. I have said repeatidly that this team has to set up its passing game and pass until the other team believes we really are going to pass the ball come hell or high water. At that point we can run and be effective.
Click to expand...


Yeah, that Kubiak is one stubborn cuss.

The only time we came close to balancing our attack, we win the game.

Other than that, we've passed more than we've run the ball. & we've run the ball well, more times than not, except in the one win.

Philly:
1st half
33 snaps 11 runs (18 yards ) 22 passing plays.

2nd half
22 snaps 5 runs (25 yards)

Indy
1st half
27 snaps 13 runs (51 yards) 14 passing plays

2nd half
26 snaps 7 runs (46 yards) 19 passing plays

Washington
1st half
28 plays 10 runs (38 yards) 18 passing plays

2nd half
23 plays 5 runs (20 yards) 18 passing plays

Miami
1st Half
27 plays 12 runs (26 yards) 15 passing plays

2nd Half
37 plays 16 runs (26 yards) 21 passing plays.
 
thunderkyss said:
Yeah, that Kubiak is one stubborn cuss.

The only time we came close to balancing our attack, we win the game.

Other than that, we've passed more than we've run the ball. & we've run the ball well, more times than not, except in the one win.

Philly:
1st half
33 snaps 11 runs (18 yards ) 22 passing plays.

2nd half
22 snaps 5 runs (25 yards)

Indy
1st half
27 snaps 13 runs (51 yards) 14 passing plays

2nd half
26 snaps 7 runs (46 yards) 19 passing plays

Washington
1st half
28 plays 10 runs (38 yards) 18 passing plays

2nd half
23 plays 5 runs (20 yards) 18 passing plays

Miami
1st Half
27 plays 12 runs (26 yards) 15 passing plays

2nd Half
37 plays 16 runs (26 yards) 21 passing plays.
Click to expand...


I think what Ibar is saying is we need to stick to our pass game to open up the run, continue passing when it is working, and that if the running game is not working we need to throw the ball. There is no need to keep trying to run the ball when it's not working, and it hasn't worked all season.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I don't think thats it...I haven't watched the film but my guess would be that we still are running ZBS...ZBS isn't just stretch right or stretch left....A play can go straight up the middle and be 'zone blocked'....

My Theory: We are still running ZBS....We have two totally different backs than what we had in the pre-season...Neither are the kind of portis, lundy, morency, tatum bell kind of quick back that can use their quickness to make the one cut and go required for the stretch...They are both better suited for straight ahead running...breaking tackles...not being elusive....So they can use their body weight and get a good forward lean....You don't really want your bigger backs running sideways....You let your quick guys run sideways because they can find the hole and make a quick cut....You want to get your bigger backs with their body going forward....

*I don't know if we've been running ZBS because I didn't re-watch the game....But I would bet that we have been
Click to expand...

texan279 said:
I think what Ibar is saying is we need to stick to our pass game to open up the run, continue passing when it is working, and that if the running game is not working we need to throw the ball. There is no need to keep trying to run the ball when it's not working, and it hasn't worked all season.
Click to expand...

I think you'd be askin a lot out of David...
 
Ibar_Harry said:
I have a totally different theory. The problem is every team knows Kubiak is going to run, run, run the ball. If he's not successful he's going to run, run, run, the ball. Now that is perception some of you will say. The problem is that is what every team thinks of when you play a Denver or a Denver graduate. The end result is the look for the run 1st and the pass 2nd. They also know that you do not have to fear our RB's.

What you do have to fear on this team is the passing attack. I have said repeatidly that this team has to set up its passing game and pass until the other team believes we really are going to pass the ball come hell or high water. At that point we can run and be effective. Over the last several years we have had a problem protecting the QB because the zone blocking scheme is a running scheme that is not designed to protect the passer. You can not run two different schemes and not expect the defense to key on what you are doing. That means you have to pass out of the zone in order to not tip off the play. End result has been that Carr has taken a whipping. This may be why you are seeing more of Sherman's style of O-line play, because like Farve they are trying to protect David.

We need to be more like the Colts than Denver as we have a lot of personnel like the Colts. Their strengths lie in their QB and their receivers. That is our strength as well. I'm not going to argue degrees of difference I'm just saying what we look like when compared to other teams. We have not had the RB's of Denver and there is not much we can do about it. DD was a great find and there is no question that if he were healthy we would have a running attack. He's not and there is simply nothing we can do about that right now. We have to be more affective with what we have and realize that is the way it is this year. Make a believers out of the other teams. The Colts certainly have. Why can't we?

Its called adapting and overcoming. Our coaches simply need to relax and do what our personnel can do best. Even AJ has commented on this in his locker room interviews and Moulds has even sort of hinted at it, but is less likely to say something. I think the team knows we can generate a lot of fear in the other teams if we will only use our strength. Use the passing game like a running game.

Last week against the Titans Manning was averaging something like 3 yards a reception or less through about the 1st 3 qtrs. I couldn't believe it so I went back and looked at the numbers. That is what they are doing. They are simply trying to get the balls to backs and others beyound the line of scrimmage. That is one way to deal with an ineffective O-line. AJ, Walters, Putzer, Daniels are a healthy load to bring down. Moulds is more of an elusive type person who, if open, can still burn you for a lot of yards. Nobody can see the tree for the forest, however. Again do what you are, not what you are not.
Click to expand...


The Colts are a much better team when they can run the ball effectively.

In the first three losses of the season, the Texans threw the ball way more than they ran. The Texans lost, and their defense looked terrible because they were on the field so long. Against Miami, they ran the ball mostly in effectively, but were able to keep longer time of possession. Running burns clock and keeps your defense off of the field. Our defense needs that help.

The Denver style offense, though able to run, also has traditionally put up some very fat passing stats.

I believe that a team does best when it has a specific philosophy, commits to that philosophy, and learns how to do the tasks well that fit that philosophy.

I thought the formations and the blocking looked better and less predictable in the preseason and in training camp. The Power I stuff was a surprise in the Denver game. 4th preseason game didn't really count.

(As for the hybrid stuff. Maybe it was around the time of the Denver or TB game, but I seemed to recall that Sherman got testy when someone talked about the Texans doing a just a ZBS, that he took pride in some of his Green Bay formations--didn't make the paper--it was something talked about during one of the broadcasts).

Clearly, Kubiak needs the right players to make his stuff work. I just don't see how the Green Bay stuff sets up the things that Kubiak is trying to do with the Denver stuff. Notably, the part of the team that is doing Denver style things with Denver coaching (QB, WRs) is doing better than the part of the team that is doing more hybrid stuff.

One of things that became a problem with the old Texans is that Capers/Palmer had inconsistent philosophies and Capers meddled on offense, and with Pendry/Palmer, they tried to put two different systems together that didn't work.

I think you run the Power I types of formations when you have such a dominant line that you don't care that the other side knows you are probably going to run. We don't have that line. If you are able to run a ZBS with backside cutblocks, eventualy, it wears down opposing defenses because they become tentative about overpursuit and also start worrying about their legs.

The only time we have been able to get away with boots in the regular season is when we run them so infrequently, defenses stop looking for it. That isn't going to help your run game either.

I know that the preseason is not the regular season, but the passing game we saw in the preseason is still there, but the run game just looks horrible.
 
Runner said:
I think edo has it about right. The o-line in the Denver style starts the flow and goes with it. The o-line in our hybrid style starts the flow and then tries to square up on their man and push them perpendicular to the line of scrimmage.

Although probably oversimplified, that is it in a nutshell.

The question is, why did our blocking look so different in pre-season? I think during the pre-season we were trying to do the same things as now, but then we were able to do it. We were able to start the flow going well in one direction before we squared up. Now that the games count the d-lineman seem to be resisiting that flow much better and we aren't getting the angled/sideways movement.
Click to expand...


That's what I want to know.

Clearly having backs starting that did not go through your training camp doesn't help, but I'm not seeing the places to run. Even ole Antowain Smith could find a space to run eventually.
 
texan279 said:
The only thing I know for a fact that is different right now is in the preseason we had Smith, Lundy, and Morency running the ball, and in the preseason all 3 of them averaged 5.5 yards per carry or better. As of right now it's Gado and Dayne splitting the carries.
Click to expand...

Not to sound cute, but the only thing I know for a fact that is different right now, is that that this is the regular season. This is the time where defensive coordinators develop a game plan based upon what he sees on film. Smith, Lundy, and Morency getting 5.5 ypc in preseason doesn't mean anything. To highlight that point, look what Lundy and Morency did in the first regular season game against Philadelphia.

Kubiak is committed to running the ball. But he's not going to abandon it, just because the running attack is struggling. As for Kubiak and Sherman, I just don't picture a difference in running philosophies clashing here.

I think it just starts up front. The O-line just needs to quit thinking so much, and starting knocking some people on their butts.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I think you'd be askin a lot out of David...
Click to expand...

What's with the constant dogging on David? Sure, he might not be playing like a pro bowler, but the guy has completed 73% of his passes, that's almost every 3 out of 4 passes and he is still the #1 rated QB in the NFL after 4 games. And why do you think it would be asking so much of David? Has our passing game not been successful this season compared to the past few seasons? You know AJ is the 4th ranked WR in the NFL in receiving yards with 410 after 4 games, and the 3 guys ahead of him have all played 5 games. And Moulds has 230 receiving yards himself after 4 games. You do realize that 7 of our 8 total TD's this season have come from the passing game right? And the one rushing TD we have came courtesy of Carr right?
 
texan279 said:
I think what Ibar is saying is we need to stick to our pass game to open up the run, continue passing when it is working, and that if the running game is not working we need to throw the ball. There is no need to keep trying to run the ball when it's not working, and it hasn't worked all season.
Click to expand...

& I don't know where this notion is coming from. If you rewatch the games, or look at the play by play(I don't know why people don't like the play by play, other than it doesn't show them what they want to see), but if you rewatch the game, or look at the play-by-play, you'll see that it is the passing game that is leading to the three & outs, or the loss of possession(punt)..... If we had stuck to the running game against Philly, Indy, & Washington, like we did against Miami (& we ran the ball better against Philly, Indy, & Washington) we would have been a lot closer to winning those games.

Our Passing game has really not been as good as we think. The numbers don't tell the whole story.
 
I think the answer to all of these questions is that we simply don't have the personnel to do a pure ZBS or GB style.

I think Kubiak eventually wants to go with a ZBS, but doesn't have
a) the right OL
b) the right RB
c) the right coaching staff

Hence the addition of Sherman, who Kubiak most likely felt employed a style that would mesh well with his own. Hence:
a) the addition of Sherman as OL coach
b) the addition of Flannagan
c) the addition of Gado

The preseason looked so much different because the coaching staff wanted to get a feel for whether pure ZBS would work, pure GB would work, or hybrids would work. I think they are smart enough to know that D's in the preseason aren't going to attack with the same intensity as the regular season, and so were looking for technique rather than results. Even though one style worked well for us, the coaches knew it wouldn't translate into the preseason....they were just looking for how well the players grasped the techinques.

Thats why we have the run blocking we have now. Its a transitional system, and once Sherman leaves and Kubiak has another season to change the personnel, we'll probably see something different next year. By next year I predict:
-HUGE changes to OL personnel
-If DD isn't back, changes to our RB personnel
-New OL coach
 
Marcus said:
Not to sound cute, but the only thing I know for a fact that is different right now, is that that this is the regular season. This is the time where defensive coordinators develop a game plan based upon what he sees on film. Smith, Lundy, and Morency getting 5.5 ypc in preseason doesn't mean anything. To highlight that point, look what Lundy and Morency did in the first regular season game against Philadelphia.

Kubiak is committed to running the ball. But he's not going to abandon it, just because the running attack is struggling. As for Kubiak and Sherman, I just don't picture a difference in running philosophies clashing here.

I think it just starts up front. The O-line just needs to quit thinking so much, and starting knocking some people on their butts.
Click to expand...

And look at what Dayne, Gado, and Lundy did against a much weaker Indy defense, less than 100 total yards against Indy's 31st ranked rushing defense. My point is that the problem is our running backs.
 
Texans_Chick said:
In the first three losses of the season, the Texans threw the ball way more than they ran. The Texans lost, and their defense looked terrible because they were on the field so long. Against Miami, they ran the ball mostly in effectively, but were able to keep longer time of possession. Running burns clock and keeps your defense off of the field. Our defense needs that help.
Click to expand...
Thankyou... if I could give you rep, I would. This is what I've been saying, but nobody wants to hear it.
 
Marcus said:
Not to sound cute, but the only thing I know for a fact that is different right now, is that that this is the regular season. This is the time where defensive coordinators develop a game plan based upon what he sees on film. Smith, Lundy, and Morency getting 5.5 ypc in preseason doesn't mean anything. To highlight that point, look what Lundy and Morency did in the first regular season game against Philadelphia.

Kubiak is committed to running the ball. But he's not going to abandon it, just because the running attack is struggling. As for Kubiak and Sherman, I just don't picture a difference in running philosophies clashing here.

I think it just starts up front. The O-line just needs to quit thinking so much, and starting knocking some people on their butts.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what he did against Philly. We struggled in the first half, but in the second, we are only down by 14, and he comes out slinging. I definitely think we'd have won that game, if we kept pounding. I think it was mostly Lundy in the second half, with 5 ypc......
 
I've said this before but we get no drive off the line of scrimmage with our line. Look at other teams that run the ball well, their line explodes up field!!!
Which makes me wonder why Kubiak hasn't given Winston a shot. He is a power blocker by nature and has quick feet. He is quicker than most of our linemen. I've heard all the arguements that he is not ready but until they put him out there we will never reall know. He has to be better than Bedell was in the Miami game and Wiergert hasn't exactly lit up the world.....
 
thunderkyss said:
& I don't know where this notion is coming from. If you rewatch the games, or look at the play by play(I don't know why people don't like the play by play, other than it doesn't show them what they want to see), but if you rewatch the game, or look at the play-by-play, you'll see that it is the passing game that is leading to the three & outs, or the loss of possession(punt)..... If we had stuck to the running game against Philly, Indy, & Washington, like we did against Miami (& we ran the ball better against Philly, Indy, & Washington) we would have been a lot closer to winning those games.

Our Passing game has really not been as good as we think. The numbers don't tell the whole story.
Click to expand...

We've been through this a million times. I don't care about play by plays, passing game leading to three and outs, or what ifs. I've watched the games. Our backs are horrible, our rushing game is ranked 29th in the NFL. As a team we have the second worst yards per carry in the NFL. As a team we are ranked 31st in the NFL in total rushing yards. Oakland, possibly the worst team in the NFL, has rushed for 170 yards more than we have on one less carry. And our passing game has scored all but one of our total number of touchdowns, that is saying something when we have run 111 pass plays compared to 94 running plays.
 
thunderkyss said:
& I don't know where this notion is coming from. If you rewatch the games, or look at the play by play(I don't know why people don't like the play by play, other than it doesn't show them what they want to see), but if you rewatch the game, or look at the play-by-play, you'll see that it is the passing game that is leading to the three & outs, or the loss of possession(punt)..... If we had stuck to the running game against Philly, Indy, & Washington, like we did against Miami (& we ran the ball better against Philly, Indy, & Washington) we would have been a lot closer to winning those games.

Our Passing game has really not been as good as we think. The numbers don't tell the whole story.
Click to expand...

You can't just look at the stats and say that. It doesn't tell the whole story:

-Against Philly, the run wasn't working in the beginning. Lundy+Morency were getting stuffed frequently.

-Against Indy, the run was working fine after the first quarter, but we were already so far behind it didn't matter. You can't run the ball in the 3rd quarter when you are behind 20 to 3. It doesn't make sense.

-Against Washington, again, we were down early and by a lot. We couldn't run the ball even if it was working then.

Basically, against the first 3 teams, after they soared out to a lead, the teams could drop a few more back and empty the box a bit because they knew we had to pass. When you are down by more than 2 scores after halftime, you simply can't run the ball as often. You can't waste the clock like that, and you can't afford to settle for 1-3 yard gains. You have to pass to reestablish the lead.

The reason we stuck to the run game in Miami is because we were playing with the lead.
 
texan279 said:
What's with the constant dogging on David? Sure, he might not be playing like a pro bowler, but the guy has completed 73% of his passes, that's almost every 3 out of 4 passes and he is still the #1 rated QB in the NFL after 4 games. And why do you think it would be asking so much of David? Has our passing game not been successful this season compared to the past few seasons? You know AJ is the 4th ranked WR in the NFL in receiving yards with 410 after 4 games, and the 3 guys ahead of him have all played 5 games. And Moulds has 230 receiving yards himself after 4 games. You do realize that 7 of our 8 total TD's this season have come from the passing game right? And the one rushing TD we have came courtesy of Carr right?
Click to expand...

I know all of that...But right now we are already passing much more than we run....Kyss broke down the numbers....And now you want us to pass more??? Thats not what we need....And yes it is true that David has been passing well, but you are basically asking him to win us the game with his arm and I personally don't think he can do that right now...As evidence...the games where we passed a lot more than we ran...we lost....if you can't run in the NFL you lose...
 
thunderkyss said:
That's exactly what he did against Philly. We struggled in the first half, but in the second, we are only down by 14, and he comes out slinging. I definitely think we'd have won that game, if we kept pounding. I think it was mostly Lundy in the second half, with 5 ypc......
Click to expand...

I am not sure we win any of the first three games, but clearly the defense got completely gassed being on the field so much. Ultimately, I think the lack of the run game helped contribute to the defense looking castrophically bad, as opposed to regular bad.
 
texan279 said:
What's with the constant dogging on David? Sure, he might not be playing like a pro bowler, but the guy has completed 73% of his passes, that's almost every 3 out of 4 passes and he is still the #1 rated QB in the NFL after 4 games.
Click to expand...
There's more to the passing game than completion percentages & QB rating. Penalties, Sacks, & dropped balls has really made our passing game worse than our running game as far as picking up first downs.

Without Question, we are at our best, when we mix it up evenly. But our passing game on it's own, isn't all that.
texan279 said:
And why do you think it would be asking so much of David? Has our passing game not been successful this season compared to the past few seasons? You know AJ is the 4th ranked WR in the NFL in receiving yards with 410 after 4 games, and the 3 guys ahead of him have all played 5 games. And Moulds has 230 receiving yards himself after 4 games. You do realize that 7 of our 8 total TD's this season have come from the passing game right? And the one rushing TD we have came courtesy of Carr right?
Click to expand...

Most of them set up by the play action.

David's numbers would be much fatter, Andre's would be as well as Moulds, Cook's, Owen, Walter, & Lundy's, if it weren't for the penalties & sacks..... & fumbles.

minus the fumbles, I think David is playing like a ProBowler........ as a unit, our offense needs to get it's crap together. Mainly the Oline.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I know all of that...But right now we are already passing much more than we run....Kyss broke down the numbers....And now you want us to pass more??? Thats not what we need....And yes it is true that David has been passing well, but you are basically asking him to win us the game with his arm and I personally don't think he can do that right now...As evidence...the games where we passed a lot more than we ran...we lost....if you can't run in the NFL you lose...
Click to expand...

I am not asking him to win anything, all I am saying is if the pass game works, keep using it. You know people threw fits last season when Capers would run the ball and it didn't work, now people are asking to see more of an even worse running game while our passing game is looking better than ever...
 
gtexan02 said:
You can't just look at the stats and say that. It doesn't tell the whole story:

-Against Philly, the run wasn't working in the beginning. Lundy+Morency were getting stuffed frequently.

-Against Indy, the run was working fine after the first quarter, but we were already so far behind it didn't matter. You can't run the ball in the 3rd quarter when you are behind 20 to 3. It doesn't make sense.

-Against Washington, again, we were down early and by a lot. We couldn't run the ball even if it was working then.

Basically, against the first 3 teams, after they soared out to a lead, the teams could drop a few more back and empty the box a bit because they knew we had to pass. When you are down by more than 2 scores after halftime, you simply can't run the ball as often. You can't waste the clock like that, and you can't afford to settle for 1-3 yard gains. You have to pass to reestablish the lead.

The reason we stuck to the run game in Miami is because we were playing with the lead.
Click to expand...


Absolutely, so how can you(not you, but Texan 279) say that our run game sucks, because our total yards is not as high as other teams, or that we only ran for 98 yards against Indy's D??

Those are the stats that are misleading. We had 15 carries against Indy.

In Philly, down by 14, we run the ball 5 times in the entire second half, even though we are avg'ing 5 yards/carry in the second.
 
thunderkyss said:
There's more to the passing game than completion percentages & QB rating. Penalties, Sacks, & dropped balls has really made our passing game worse than our running game as far as picking up first downs.

Without Question, we are at our best, when we mix it up evenly. But our passing game on it's own, isn't all that.


Most of them set up by the play action.

David's numbers would be much fatter, Andre's would be as well as Moulds, Cook's, Owen, Walter, & Lundy's, if it weren't for the penalties & sacks..... & fumbles.

minus the fumbles, I think David is playing like a ProBowler........ as a unit, our offense needs to get it's crap together. Mainly the Oline.
Click to expand...

Your running game has to be at least somewhat successful to set up your passing game on the play action. And I know there is more to a passing game than completion percentage and QB rating, I just don't get the continued dogging on Carr. I say we stick to what is working, the passing game. And you sit here and act as if our 29th ranked rushing offense is so great and then say that our 21st ranked passing game is "not all that"? Besides Carr's bootleg, our passing game is the only thing that has put TD's on the board in 4 games this season.
 
texan279 said:
I am not asking him to win anything, all I am saying is if the pass game works, keep using it. You know people threw fits last season when Capers would run the ball and it didn't work, now people are asking to see more of an even worse running game while our passing game is looking better than ever...
Click to expand...

...But the passing game isn't really 'working'...We won when we ran the ball more...So how is the passing game "working"??....You are looking at the numbers and stats and and D.Carr's QB rating...all of which,IMO, are inflated....I don't think the answer is to pass more....I think we just need to run better.....
 
thunderkyss said:
Absolutely, so how can you(not you, but Texan 279) say that our run game sucks, because our total yards is not as high as other teams, or that we only ran for 98 yards against Indy's D??

Those are the stats that are misleading. We had 15 carries against Indy.

In Philly, down by 14, we run the ball 5 times in the entire second half, even though we are avg'ing 5 yards/carry in the second.
Click to expand...

We had 20 carries against Indy's defense. And we only ran 25 plays in the second half and we were playing from behind in the Philly game.
 
texan279 said:
We've been through this a million times. I don't care about play by plays, passing game leading to three and outs, or what ifs. I've watched the games. Our backs are horrible, our rushing game is ranked 29th in the NFL. As a team we have the second worst yards per carry in the NFL. As a team we are ranked 31st in the NFL in total rushing yards. Oakland, possibly the worst team in the NFL, has rushed for 170 yards more than we have on one less carry. And our passing game has scored all but one of our total number of touchdowns, that is saying something when we have run 111 pass plays compared to 94 running plays.
Click to expand...

And you'll continue to hear it, as long as it's the truth.

Through 4 games, we've played 8 QTrs of football. in 5 of those 8 Qtrs, we've run the ball well. wouldn't it make sense to say those three Qtrs are the aberation, and not the other 5??

Throw out the Miami game, and we avg 4 Ypc...... & that includes a bad 1st half against Philly, a top 5 rushing D.

We avg 23 carries a game, Indy & Washington, mainly because of the score. That is what is killing our running game. not a lack of production.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
...But the passing game isn't really 'working'...We won when we ran the ball more...So how is the passing game "working"??....You are looking at the numbers and stats and and D.Carr's QB rating...all of which,IMO, are inflated....I don't think the answer is to pass more....I think we just need to run better.....
Click to expand...


No I am watching the games. You say we won when we ran more, in our one win against Miami we had 29 carries for 73 yards, that is 2.5 yards per carry. Gado averaged less than 2 yards per carry and Dayne averaged 2.6 yards per carry, if you think our running game had anything to do with that win I have no idea what to tell you, and yes I watched the game, and I also watched Dayne and Gado miss holes and run straight into piles of defenders.
 
texan279 said:
We had 20 carries against Indy's defense. And we only ran 25 plays in the second half and we were playing from behind in the Philly game.
Click to expand...

20 carries, 98 yards..... 4.9 ypc.... & now you say we only got 98 yards, because we had to abandon the run because of time, and score.... not because of lack of production, so 98 yards against a week Colts D cannont be a negative against our running game.


right??
 
thunderkyss said:
And you'll continue to hear it, as long as it's the truth.

Through 4 games, we've played 8 QTrs of football. in 5 of those 8 Qtrs, we've run the ball well. wouldn't it make sense to say those three Qtrs are the aberation, and not the other 5??

Throw out the Miami game, and we avg 4 Ypc...... & that includes a bad 1st half against Philly, a top 5 rushing D.

We avg 23 carries a game, Indy & Washington, mainly because of the score. That is what is killing our running game. not a lack of production.
Click to expand...

You can't just throw out bad games to improve stats. And Philly's rushing defense is ranked 16th as of right now, not top 5. And as far as the attempts per game, why would we want to make more attempts when it doesn't work? There are 4 teams in the NFL who have less rush attempts than we do, and 3 of them have more total rushing yards, the only team who has less is Detroit and they average 6 less attempts per game than us.
 
texan279 said:
No I am watching the games. You say we won when we ran more, in our one win against Miami we had 29 carries for 73 yards, that is 2.5 yards per carry. Gado averaged less than 2 yards per carry and Dayne averaged 2.6 yards per carry, if you think our running game had anything to do with that win I have no idea what to tell you, and yes I watched the game, and I also watched Dayne and Gado miss holes and run straight into piles of defenders.
Click to expand...

I haven't checked, but what was our avg time of possession?? against Washington, it was something like two & a half minutes.
 
thunderkyss said:
20 carries, 98 yards..... 4.9 ypc.... & now you say we only got 98 yards, because we had to abandon the run because of time, and score.... not because of lack of production, so 98 yards against a week Colts D cannont be a negative against our running game.


right??
Click to expand...

Well when they allow an average of 170 yards rushing per game and we have 3 backs who can't combine for 100 yards against them I wouldn't say it is negative but it's far from great.
 
texan279 said:
You can't just throw out bad games to improve stats. And Philly's rushing defense is ranked 16th as of right now, not top 5. And as far as the attempts per game, why would we want to make more attempts when it doesn't work? There are 4 teams in the NFL who have less rush attempts than we do, and 3 of them have more total rushing yards, the only team who has less is Detroit and they average 6 less attempts per game than us.
Click to expand...

I'm not throwing out the bad game to improve the stats...... I'm saying other than that game, we ran the ball well. One bad game does not, and can not mean that we have a bad running game.

Washington was top 5, my bad.
 
texan279 said:
Well when they allow an average of 170 yards rushing per game and we have 3 backs who can't combine for 100 yards against them I wouldn't say it is negative but it's far from great.
Click to expand...

You just said we were playing from behind, and you don't run the ball when you are behind that much...... were they supposed to get 170 yards in the first half??
 
thunderkyss said:
You just said we were playing from behind, and you don't run the ball when you are behind that much...... were they supposed to get 170 yards in the first half??
Click to expand...

Then why are you complaining about us having only 5 carries in the second half against Philly, you know we were behind in that game as well...were we supposed to run the ball 20 times in the second half playing from behind? And why are you complaining about us only getting 23 carries per game? You know we have been playing from behind a lot this season, are we supposed to run the ball 40 times a game while playing from behind?
 
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