Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-20-2006   #1
Marcus
Hall of Fame
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Stafford, Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 7,884
Rep Power: 105876 Marcus is a quality contributor and well respectedMarcus is a quality contributor and well respectedMarcus is a quality contributor and well respectedMarcus is a quality contributor and well respectedMarcus is a quality contributor and well respectedMarcus is a quality contributor and well respectedMarcus is a quality contributor and well respectedMarcus is a quality contributor and well respectedMarcus is a quality contributor and well respectedMarcus is a quality contributor and well respectedMarcus is a quality contributor and well respected
Default This is a dumb question

I hope y'all don't mind if I ask it anyway. So here goes.

How can you tell if the secondary is playing bad if you can't get pressure on the QB?

I ask this, because I read a lot of posts where it says something like "Yeah, I know (so & so) has all day to throw, but our safeties suck, and our CBs couldn't cover the toilet lids with their own asses."

I guess I just don't understand the viewpoint that one is NOT dependant on the other, so I need some help here if y'all don't mind. What am I not seeing?
Marcus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #2
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
 
Cjeremy635's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Huffman, Texas
Age: 36
Posts: 7,695
Rep Power: 41385 Cjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respectedCjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respectedCjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respectedCjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respectedCjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respectedCjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respectedCjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respectedCjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respectedCjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respectedCjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respectedCjeremy635 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Mainly by a cover person(s) being out of position to make a play. When a reciever is wide open in the secondary, whether it be over the middle or wherever, there was a blown assignment most of the time. Someone was either supposed to drop back and cover that section of the field, or someone was supposed to have that reciever. There are times where there is just too much time for the QB and someone is bound to get open, but there are plenty of times that someone is running open down the field after the snap. Sometimes the corner may come up to play the run if he bites on a playaction, and that's a blown cover assignment.
__________________
If it is important to you, you will find a way. If not, you'll find an excuse.
Cjeremy635 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #3
Hervoyel
The Right Track
 
Hervoyel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 49
Posts: 15,083
Rep Power: 297041 Hervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respectedHervoyel is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Based on the current state of the board that's not a dumb question. Not even close.
__________________
Fitz makes bad decisions. That's not going to change.
Hervoyel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #4
real
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
I hope y'all don't mind if I ask it anyway. So here goes.

How can you tell if the secondary is playing bad if you can't get pressure on the QB?

I ask this, because I read a lot of posts where it says something like "Yeah, I know (so & so) has all day to throw, but our safeties suck, and our CBs couldn't cover the toilet lids with their own asses."

I guess I just don't understand the viewpoint that one is NOT dependant on the other, so I need some help here if y'all don't mind. What am I not seeing?
I think people are exagerrating how long McNabb and Manning had to throw...There were some plays that the QB had ample time, but that's gonna happen at times....But when the ball is thrown and there is no one around the guy...Odds are someone messed up...and it's easy to see when the corners get burned....
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #5
humbleone
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Age: 59
Posts: 343
Rep Power: 10 humbleone is a fan favorite
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
I hope y'all don't mind if I ask it anyway. So here goes.

How can you tell if the secondary is playing bad if you can't get pressure on the QB?

I ask this, because I read a lot of posts where it says something like "Yeah, I know (so & so) has all day to throw, but our safeties suck, and our CBs couldn't cover the toilet lids with their own asses."

I guess I just don't understand the viewpoint that one is NOT dependant on the other, so I need some help here if y'all don't mind. What am I not seeing?
You are not missing a thing IMO...one is dependant on the other but a great pass rush will make an average defensive backfield "look" good. The good Lord did not make enough truly great "cover corners" to do it the other way around however IMO.

I would only add that sadly, what we have so far is weakness within all three layers of our defense as has many times been discussed. So, in reality it is not one or the other but both. The place to start though is upfront which of course the Texans seem committed to albeit so far without happy results.

So far this year, the most disappointing thing about the way we have played is the lack of hurries/hits we are getting on the opposing QB and RB blowups in the backfield. Our CB's are better than they "look" IMO because for some reason Smith has them playing "soft" coverage (even Drob). It looks like he doesn't have confidence that we are going to get to the QB so he is just trying to keep everything in front of the defense. We have played a lot of really soft "nickel" junk so far against the Eagles and Colts.

Btw, I said our CB's are better than they "look"...CC Brown really has not played well so far this year.

The good news is that we do have some talent to build around...I really like Weaver, TJ is looking like he wants to compete, Babin looks better and if we can get Mario to play like it is his last game we may finally have something going. I would like to see them try some 5-3-3 (CC on the bench in this set) pin theirs ears back and go.

Sorry for the rant...I needed a moment to vent.

Go Texans!
humbleone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #6
done88
Veteran
 
done88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Clear Lake
Age: 37
Posts: 274
Rep Power: 11 done88 is a team player
Default

Have you ever heard of a coverage sack. No such thing for the Texans. The secondary including Robinson has beeen disected. Quarter backs have no problem throwing to either side. They throw deep and short. The secondary is always a step behind and they are not dislogging the ball with monstor hits. They simply sit back and watch the other team score. Pressure on the QB or not is it too much to ask to make a play third down 1 out of 10 times. The only time they stopped the Colts on third down was when a wide open reciever just dropped the ball.
__________________
Donnie
I've adopted Eric Moulds
done88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #7
real
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by humbleone
I would like to see them try some 5-3-3 (CC on the bench in this set) pin theirs ears back and go.
Where are you guys getting this 5-3-3 stuff from??? Why do you think us having 1 safety and 2 corners would benifit us ? Why do you think having 5 D-Lineman in the game would benifit us ? I don't know a team in the leauge that wouldn't love for us to come out in that formation...so they can score 651658236598236 points.....
  Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Old 09-20-2006   #8
humbleone
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Age: 59
Posts: 343
Rep Power: 10 humbleone is a fan favorite
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by done88
Have you ever heard of a coverage sack. No such thing for the Texans. The secondary including Robinson has beeen disected. Quarter backs have no problem throwing to either side. They throw deep and short. The secondary is always a step behind and they are not dislogging the ball with monstor hits. They simply sit back and watch the other team score. Pressure on the QB or not is it too much to ask to make a play third down 1 out of 10 times. The only time they stopped the Colts on third down was when a wide open reciever just dropped the ball.

Yep...coverage sacks, balls thrown away before a sack same deal...I'm just saying it looks like Smith is making his CB's play soft so far this year. If so, this crap is on him not Drob and Sanders. Regardless, no way CC gets a pass...so far this year he looks as bad as Coleman did back there last year.
humbleone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #9
HJam72
Hall of Fame
 
HJam72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Over here.
Age: 42
Posts: 11,568
Rep Power: 80496 HJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respectedHJam72 is a quality contributor and well respected
Talking

Against Indy, a 3-3-5 might've helped some.


There are no dumb questions, only dumb people....oh....sorry.
__________________

HJam72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #10
real
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by humbleone
Yep...coverage sacks, balls thrown away before a sack same deal...
No...A coverage sack is when the QB is sacked because no one was open...
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #11
Vinny
shiny happy fan
 
Vinny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 50
Posts: 21,847
Rep Power: 161784 Vinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx
Where are you guys getting this 5-3-3 stuff from??? Why do you think us having 1 safety and 2 corners would benifit us ? Why do you think having 5 D-Lineman in the game would benifit us ? I don't know a team in the leauge that wouldn't love for us to come out in that formation...so they can score 651658236598236 points.....
the 5-3-3 isn't played in the NFL because of the advanced passing games. You only see that kind of d vs option or veer or bone teams.
__________________
http://twitter.com/#!/TexansTalk


"A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves" - Edward R. Murrow
Vinny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #12
Vinny
shiny happy fan
 
Vinny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 50
Posts: 21,847
Rep Power: 161784 Vinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respectedVinny is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hervoyel
Based on the current state of the board that's not a dumb question. Not even close.
__________________
http://twitter.com/#!/TexansTalk


"A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves" - Edward R. Murrow
Vinny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #13
El Tejano
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 9,835
Rep Power: 14626 El Tejano is a quality contributor and well respectedEl Tejano is a quality contributor and well respectedEl Tejano is a quality contributor and well respectedEl Tejano is a quality contributor and well respectedEl Tejano is a quality contributor and well respectedEl Tejano is a quality contributor and well respectedEl Tejano is a quality contributor and well respectedEl Tejano is a quality contributor and well respectedEl Tejano is a quality contributor and well respectedEl Tejano is a quality contributor and well respectedEl Tejano is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjeremy635 View Post
Mainly by a cover person(s) being out of position to make a play. When a reciever is wide open in the secondary, whether it be over the middle or wherever, there was a blown assignment most of the time. Someone was either supposed to drop back and cover that section of the field, or someone was supposed to have that reciever. There are times where there is just too much time for the QB and someone is bound to get open, but there are plenty of times that someone is running open down the field after the snap. Sometimes the corner may come up to play the run if he bites on a playaction, and that's a blown cover assignment.

Or whenever you see the Safetybite hard on a play action pass and the QB just lobs the ball over their head for the score.
El Tejano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #14
noxiousdog
All Pro
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 40
Posts: 649
Rep Power: 12424 noxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
I think people are exagerrating how long McNabb and Manning had to throw...
I thought McNabb had all day, but Peyton threw pretty quickly and/or moved around the pocket really well.
noxiousdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #15
real
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by noxiousdog View Post
I thought McNabb had all day, but Peyton threw pretty quickly and/or moved around the pocket really well.
They were trying to stay in their lanes to stop him from scrambling....He held the ball longer than Manning but it wasn't all day...It was our first game...I could go on and on but you get the point...Our D-line isn't as bad as our secondary...basically
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #16
noxiousdog
All Pro
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 40
Posts: 649
Rep Power: 12424 noxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respectednoxiousdog is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
They were trying to stay in their lanes to stop him from scrambling....He held the ball longer than Manning but it wasn't all day...It was our first game...I could go on and on but you get the point...Our D-line isn't as bad as our secondary...basically
I should hope not. Our line is 4 guys who should be starting (two 1st rounders, a pricey FA, and a proven vet). Our secondary is one first rounder and guys that would struggle to make a team anywhere else (Earl being a possible exception, but he's no threat to make a pro-bowl).
noxiousdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #17
threetoedpete
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Katy, Texas
Age: 59
Posts: 6,644
Rep Power: 142 threetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respectedthreetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respectedthreetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respectedthreetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respectedthreetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respectedthreetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respectedthreetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respectedthreetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respectedthreetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respectedthreetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respectedthreetoedpete is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Safty ins and Hand Granades

Quote:
Originally Posted by HJam72 View Post
Against Indy, a 3-3-5 might've helped some.
Only if we armed them with hand granades. With Faggins and Buck out, we're a little thin back there. We get healthy against Miami and the Skins in the defensive backfeild then we might be over reacting. Two top five Qbs bombed us. That's all. My dumb knee jerk thought on that is, one fire is going to die down only to reveil another hot spot. If Cullpepper and Brunell get healthy against us, there is nothing Richard Smith can do. It's not a litle flare up, the forest is on fire. We just gotta ride it out till they get it.
threetoedpete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #18
run-david-run
Hall of Fame
 
run-david-run's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The University of Texas
Age: 25
Posts: 3,370
Rep Power: 1331 run-david-run is a quality contributor and well respectedrun-david-run is a quality contributor and well respectedrun-david-run is a quality contributor and well respectedrun-david-run is a quality contributor and well respectedrun-david-run is a quality contributor and well respectedrun-david-run is a quality contributor and well respectedrun-david-run is a quality contributor and well respectedrun-david-run is a quality contributor and well respectedrun-david-run is a quality contributor and well respectedrun-david-run is a quality contributor and well respectedrun-david-run is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via AIM to run-david-run
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx View Post
Where are you guys getting this 5-3-3 stuff from??? Why do you think us having 1 safety and 2 corners would benifit us ? Why do you think having 5 D-Lineman in the game would benifit us ? I don't know a team in the leauge that wouldn't love for us to come out in that formation...so they can score 651658236598236 points.....
You never know, NFL teams tend to outhink themselves. Atlanta used the UT "zone read" play from the shotgun and Vick ran for 135 yards, Atlanta for 306. Im not saying 5-3-3 or any other wacky formation will work, but dont discount it so easily.
__________________
Andre Johnson is The Answer
run-david-run is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #19
real
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by run-david-run View Post
You never know, NFL teams tend to outhink themselves. Atlanta used the UT "zone read" play from the shotgun and Vick ran for 135 yards, Atlanta for 306. Im not saying 5-3-3 or any other wacky formation will work, but dont discount it so easily.
ummmm....no...Im gonna discount that one....I don't think there is anyway possible you could come out with a 5-3-3 as your base defense and truly expect to compete in the NFL.....Just because the zone read worked doesn't mean every other wacky idea will...
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2006   #20
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
 
jerek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dublin, OH
Age: 34
Posts: 6,632
Rep Power: 11661 jerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via AIM to jerek
Default

I had typed a long post and hit Submit when I got a message that the board was being updated. Who updates software during the middle of the day? Mods, if that was your call, I am disappointed in you.

Any way, to answer the question (and it is a good question), you have to remember that DBs must constantly react to the play. In running a route, the WR for the most part knows where he is going ahead of time, and the DB must constantly react to his movement and the ball.

This puts a DB at an inherent disadvantage against the WR. There are tricks a DB can utilize to lessen that advantage (Aaron Glenn was a master at this) but the bottom line is that, all else being equal (athleticism, height, etc.), the DB begins the play at a slight disadvantage to the WR he is covering, and the disadvantage only widens as the play goes on. The inherent disadvantage isn't an "excuse" for poor coverage or technique (and we have had our share of that as well) but your defensive gameplan needs to account for it.

I don't think our secondary is that bad. They ain't good, but they're not that bad either. We have had our share of blown coverages, accidents (DBs running into each other, slipping, biting on play action, or just getting out-techniqued) but they're not as bad as some might suggest they have looked.

We simply need more pressure up front to force the QB to make bad throws. Our DBs need to improve their technique as well (and we do have a good DBs coach in Jon Hoke) but pass coverage is very much tied to QB pressure, and we're not doing our secondary any favors right now. It's simply not fair to expect DBs to cover as long as we repeatedly call on ours to do so.

This in part goes back to playcalling. The reason why the Steelers and Patriots own Peyton Manning year after year is not because they start 11 Pro-Bowlers, but because their Xs and Os consistently put their defenders in a position to make plays. Manning isn't that good when he's hurried (not many QBs are), he isn't mobile, and the Steelers and Pats consistently take advantage of that with aggressive blitzing and tight man coverage, forcing him to unload before he wants to.

Right now, Richard Smith ain't giving us good Xs and Os (and yes, I recognize that the Steelers D is more fundamentally talented than ours, but the talent differential isn't nearly to the extent that our scores would suggest.) And if he doesn't start doing that, then our secondary is going to continue to look bad.
__________________
It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere. - Voltaire
jerek is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger