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Old 09-14-2006   #1
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Default Adjust the 4-3 and make it a 5-3-3 or a 5-2-4

Why don't we use a 5-3-3 (for run defense) and a 5-2-4 (for pass defense):


Williams(DE)--Kalu(T)--TJ(G)--Payne(NG)--Weaver(G)--Peek/Babin(T)

This lines up 4 guys (Kalu, TJ, Payne, Weaver, and Peek/Babin) on the other team's T, G, C, G, T leaving Mario to line up at either "end" position and therefore free to just blitz the QB or play contain/pursuit on running plays.

The key is that we line up five downlinemen throughout the entire game, and allow Mario to pressure the backfield on each play--He doesn't have to all-out blitz the QB on every play, he could just make sure he is in pursuit of whoever is getting the ball or if he can see it's bootleg, etc. The idea is make Mario a blitzer & containment man to seal off backside runs and/or pursue the Qb or Rb whichever has the ball. The LBs would be required to play more conservatively, however, and they would have to provide some "insurance" on Mario's side if he gambles and loses.

We would still have either 3 LBs or 2 LBs, depending on whether we wanted a run defense or a pass defense. Run defense, we go: 5-3-3 with five down linemen, 3 LBs, 2 CBs, and 1 S. On pass defense, we go: 5-2-4 with five down linemen, 2 LBs, 2 CBs, and 2 S or or 1 S and an extra CB to cover or free up and blitz at the last second...or play cover and let one of the 2 LBs blitz.

To heck with this idea of us rotating in four guys for our 4-3. Adjust the 4-3 and put four down linemen out there with Mario free to do what he did at NC State: Storm the backfield.

What they are doig with Mario is what Washington did with Lavar: They are KILLING his athleticism and playmaking ability. Mario is a guy who needs to line up far outside and beat a man around the edge. That's what he does best.
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Old 09-14-2006   #2
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What exactly is "run defense"??? You mean on first and second ? Or do you mean short yardage ?...a 5-3 Would get us absolutely killed in the passing game...If we came out on 1st down in a 5-3, every QB in the leauge would just audible because at that point even if we changed our defense we wouldn't have the personnel to stop the pass.....And if we went with 2 linebackers..then once the RB gets past the DL, there'd only be 2 linebackers and 4 DB's...I think we would get absolutely taken advantage of..JMO...

Last edited by real; 09-14-2006 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 09-14-2006   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx
What exactly is "run defense"??? You mean on first and second ? Or do you mean short yardage ?...a 5-3 Would get us absolutely killed in the passing game...If we came out on 1st down in a 5-3, every QB in the leauge would just audible because at that point even if we changed our defense we wouldn't have the personnel to stop the pass...


don't worry, our stellar Safties will save our butts each time.
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Old 09-14-2006   #4
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don't worry, our stellar Safties will save our butts each time.
ha ha...You mean SAFETY...in his 5-3 we'd only have three DB's....arguably the weakest position on the team....we cant afford to play with one safety when we are barely making it with two...
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Old 09-14-2006   #5
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You talking about Can't Cover Brown?
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Old 09-14-2006   #6
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You talking about Can't Cover Brown?
ha ha...i like that...
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Old 09-14-2006   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx
What exactly is "run defense"??? You mean on first and second ? Or do you mean short yardage ?...a 5-3 Would get us absolutely killed in the passing game...If we came out on 1st down in a 5-3, every QB in the leauge would just audible because at that point even if we changed our defense we wouldn't have the personnel to stop the pass.....And if we went with 2 linebackers..then once the RB gets past the DL, there'd only be 2 linebackers and 4 DB's...I think we would get absolutely taken advantage of..JMO...
There would be no weakness on any down. If we had a 5-3-3 on the field, let Demeco make the call as he reads the offense's pre-snap setup and possible audibling:

(1) Opponent lines up to pass against our 5-3-3? Then adjust our lineup to fall back into man or zone or a zone-read so that we can attack the run if they end up running the ball instead of passing.

(2) On third and long, opponent lines up in a heavy set? Let Demeco make the read and adjust our backfield to move up into the box.

We can be taken advantage of in any formation if our main LB (Demeco) doesn't read & recognize...and thus make the proper adjustment(s).

But I GUARANTEE we will continue to get nowhere if all we do is line up Mario and only three other linemen with him. He's not at a stage where he knows how to shake his man or the double-team yet.

I think we need to configure our front linemen differently to produce a better line-of-scrimmage "stand" than what we have been putting out there.

The game is won or lost at the line, IMO. And until we get two more Demeco's at LB...what else can we do? Just pigeon-hole Mario on the line and watch him get schooled every Sunday?
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Old 09-14-2006   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtruroyaltyx
ha ha...You mean SAFETY...in his 5-3 we'd only have three DB's....arguably the weakest position on the team....we cant afford to play with one safety when we are barely making it with two...
We looked better in our defensive backfield in the preseason when we were harassing the other team's QB...forcing premature throws and thus disrupting WRs' routes, helping our CBs out a lot more than we are when our front linemen cannot pressure the QB and therefore allowing the WRs to run our CBs ragged all over the field.

When we got to Bulger, he was throwing high or low, or short, or long. When he had time, he was beating our CBs because of the time the WRs had to finish their routes and confuse our DBs.

And that's how Philly beat us: Constant pressure that kept everything "short," and therefore their DBs never had to really do much more than go "man" and just set up shop within 5-10 yards of the line of scrimmage: Jam up our WRs, chip them off their route (off the snap) and allow the pass rush to hurry the QB into forcing his throws.

You discount our DBs as an argument to my theory, but it's because they are running all over the field and getting beaten in a position where ANY DB would get beaten in the same circumstance. In today's NFL, all WRs have the talent to lose their man if the QB has enough time to throw.

I'm a big fan of doing to others what has been done to us: Pressure the backfield, whether it's pursuing the RB or the QB, on as many downs as possible. Throw in a wrinkle every now and then to keep them guessing (such as showing blitz, but dropping back into zone). What I just described is classic Steelers: They have Palomalu in the position I want Mario to be in: Line up where he sees a weakness, blitz or fake the blitz, and just generally confuse the offense all game long. We have the talent in Kalu, Weaver, Payne, TJ, and Peek/Babin to do this...and it would increase their productivity in the end, as well.

The second half defense we produced was so much like 2005 it's not even funny: Our linemen get no "push," and our LBs and CBs get crossed up or picked, or mismatched for big plays almost all the second half of the game.

No, the key is to win the line of scrimmage and get into the backfield. Without the threat of getting sacked or dropped for a loss on a run, you allow today's NFL QBs and offenses to run you ragged.
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Old 09-14-2006   #9
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Theoretically, it sounds nice, but asking your MLB to make that run/pass call just based on presnap reads is ludicrous.
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Old 09-14-2006   #10
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Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
(1) Opponent lines up to pass against our 5-3-3? Then adjust our lineup to fall back into man or zone or a zone-read so that we can attack the run if they end up running the ball instead of passing.
How would you know the opponent is lining up to pass ? If a defense knew evertime whether it would be run or pass we wouldn't be having this convo because no one would be able to score on us anyways...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
(2) On third and long, opponent lines up in a heavy set? Let Demeco make the read and adjust our backfield to move up into the box.
Im not sure why someone would line up in a heavy set on third and long...if they were doing that; that would mean they were trying to eat clock because they have the game in hand...and it wouldn't matter at that point anyway...


Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
But I GUARANTEE we will continue to get nowhere if all we do is line up Mario and only three other linemen with him. He's not at a stage where he knows how to shake his man or the double-team yet.
LOL...We aren't going to change our whole defensive philosophy and scheme to try and help Mario develop faster... If everyone changed their scheme for their rookie DE...well it would just be crazy....

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
I think we need to configure our front linemen differently to produce a better line-of-scrimmage "stand" than what we have been putting out there.
We haven't had a lot of problem with the run, which is why I'm even more puzzled at why you'd want to do this...Our problem is with the pass and this defense puts us at a clear disadvantage...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
The game is won or lost at the line, IMO. And until we get two more Demeco's at LB...what else can we do? Just pigeon-hole Mario on the line and watch him get schooled every Sunday?
Thats like saying...my girlfriend left me...so all I can do now is jump off this here bridge...Dude...there are other options..lol...calm down....
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Old 09-14-2006   #11
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There are so many different reasons that this wouldn't work My head is spinning...
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Old 09-14-2006   #12
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We wouldn't "know" if it was going to be a run or pass, but you can make pretty good guesses based on the information available.

That's all it is anyways: Calculated risks and guesses based on the best information available. Do you think when our defensive coordinator calls a defensive play, and the QB breaks the huddle as the players approach the line, that we are just sitting on that play and saying, "Well, I hope we picked the right defensive play?"

Surely we're like most other teams who use hand signals (by the LB, usually) and vocal audibles to re-align the players: To shift the linemen, to shift the LBs, to completely switch into a different coverage scheme, etc.?

Are YOu telling all of us that we pick a play and just sit on it? That's a far bigger risk than anything I have said. I don't think defenses line up and say, "This is what we picked, and hopefully the play is just what we knew it would be..."

In my theory, we present a line of scrimmage "stand" that is completely adjustable up until the snap. The 5-3-3 base package on 1st and 2nd downs allows for an extra LB (to help cover the run, which is percentage-wise the safest bet on longer downs) compared to the 5-2-4 which would be the base package for 3rd and long situations.

Heck, isn't it Georgia Tech that uses a weird defense that only has 1 LB and the rest are DBs and down linemen? And they harassed the heck out of Notre Dame.

I saw footage of Mario being put on the very end of the line, almost always standing up before the snap, and getting into the backfield to make the play(s). Calling it "foolish" to re-align our players JUSt for Mario is foolish in-of-itself, IMO, because we drafted a Beast and we're seeing a kitten out there.

No shame in trying to compensate for Mario's learning curve. One day he WILL be able to line up anywhere and dominate. It just won't be anytime this season if they keep this same stuff up that has him getting dominated on almost every play.
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Old 09-14-2006   #13
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That was Mississippi St. with Joe Lee Dunn as D-Co that ran a 5-1-5. Two of the DB's were hybrid Safety/LB types that lined up in the flats. Fun defense to watch...
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Old 09-14-2006   #14
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I'm sure it was tried on Madden and probably had some success..lol. I know that's how most people on this board base the success or failure of a player in the NFL. It's a shame I don't play video games or I could have gotten the new head coach job. Who knows? A couple of hours ago, I read a post in a thread about how Gado was going to be effective in our backfield because when they plugged him into their Madden game it worked terrifically. Are you SERIOUS????? Not to be disrespectful, but the people making the decisions about how to run the schemes on this team are professionals. This isn't their hobby. It's their career, income, reputation, passion, food/money for their family's that drive them to make the right decisions on how to run this organization the best way that they think they can produce a winning product. So for us "fans" to sit here and argue if so and so even wiped his arse long enough is rediculous. Seriously, it seems like it's coming to that. "No man, he should have used 2-ply and made 6 wipes". "Are you kidding me, I use 6-ply and it works wonders, he has no clue what he's doing in there!" I don't mean to rant guys, but THROW ME A FREAKIN' BONE HERE.
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Old 09-14-2006   #15
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And BTW,

At least this thread topic involves dialogue and discussion and analysis, rather than "OMG, we traded Morency for Gado? Now...how do we pronounce Gado's name?"

I enjoy reading the responses to my thread on this topic. I agree with some of you that it does put pressure on our DBs, but I also think what we're doing right now is putting just as much pressure on them anyways.

It'd be nice to see Mario and Babin/Peek getting past the line of scrimmage like they were drafted to do. Do we have to stock our defensive backfield with top 10 Dbacks over the next four years to finally get good coverage out of them? I don;t think we have to. I think we can pressure the backfield and let those guys jam the WRs at the line, take gambles of their own a few times throughout the game.

The worst position to be on in this teams' current state-of-being is at DB: They have the worst job of anybody because they are in a no-win situation from the beginning.
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Old 09-14-2006   #16
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It would also help if Babin had another pass rush move other than run as fast as he can straight up the field 5 yds past the QB
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Old 09-14-2006   #17
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LOL. I think it was Tejano who said he played Madden and someone performed well.

That's not how I analyze. I watch the games on TV, and I don't look at singular performances (as in, how many times a player did x-y-z).

I look at the overall picture, the 100-foot view from the sky. And I see a front line that is getting stonewalled and LBs and DBs who are trying their best to guess where the WRs are going to go. All of it, IMO, is a true recipe for disaster. QBs are smart enough these days to take an extra second and burn the DBs no matter how well-aligned they are, or how talented they are: It;s the nature of the beast in today's NFL: Extra time for a QB = WRs running a DB ragged until they find some open field and sit down for a pass.

We could make other team's QBs look like Carr a lot more of we did to them what they do to us. That's all I am saying. And I don;t think our LBs (other than Demeco) has the talent and gut instincts to provide the rush that we need. That's why we drafted Mario, and they are mis-using him just as NC State mis-used him until they finally figure out to place him far outside and let him pressure the backfield.

Check it: Mario wasn't always sacking the QB in his highlight reels last season. He was in the backfield disrupting running plays, harassing the QB into making bad decisions, and containing trick plays that took a awhile to develop, etc. And IIRC, most of those highlight plays were when he was standing up, on the far outside end, and not inside with a hand on the ground.

You can see it in his eyes: He's not at ALL comfortable with how he's being utilized. Watch his body language after yet another play where he's been mis-aligned and played out of position, resulting in him getting doubled or owned by his man. Those eyes and that body language says, "When will they figure out what my coaches at NC State figured out?"

And until we get some more Demeco's at LB, and until we get some more legitimate linemen than what we have, to compliment Mario (just as Moulds compliments AJ) then the 4-3 as we know it will continue to disappoint.
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Old 09-14-2006   #18
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Quote:
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It would also help if Babin had another pass rush move other than run as fast as he can straight up the field 5 yds past the QB
You know what? I see Babin, for the most part, as just about the only player in our defense who is actually the nearest to the QB or runner on plays when he's in there.

I think he's actually doing his part more than he was last year.

That's just me, though.
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Old 09-14-2006   #19
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Im sorry...but I think that would be a horrible defense...

I think with your defense you are assuming a lot of things that aren't neccessarily true...

1) more people on the line = more pressure


2) more people on the line= better run defense

neither one of these theories are neccessarily true...

I can understand asking for a more agressive defense..more blitzes and such...but if we ran this defense I GAURANTEE we would loose every game...
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Old 09-14-2006   #20
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We would get crushed passing. Just LB blitzes would help the 43
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