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Old 09-14-2004   #41
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I agree the play calling is too predictable but the guys did produce against the Chargers despite that. However if a play is run correctly and executed properly no one can stop it.

The fourth quarter playcalling is horrible always though i do agree with that. We always come out firing on all cylinders but come the 4th its obvious Palmer loses that edge.
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Old 09-16-2004   #42
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Originally Posted by sprtsfanatic
You make a very good point. I was wondering if I was the only one to see it this way. Maybe its just me (and you), but it seems to me like we play our hearts out and most of the time have a lead going in to the fourth quarter...but then all of a sudden our mind set changes and we no longer play to win , but instead play to not lose. And yes there is a difference.

We are no longer the aggressive team that looks to drive down the field and put points on the board...we some how turn into a squad that looks to kill the clock and waste as much time as possible and just hope that we dont give the other team enough time to overcome our lead.

Grant it after this game I know that the turnovers killed us. I mean anytime you fumble the ball on your own goal line....thats gonna hurt you. Especially if they come right back down and score on you...your talking about a 14pt turn around in this case (the 7 we didnt score because of it and the 7 they ended up scoring). Turnover kill your drives and all of your momentum, but again our team has yet to show us that they have that killer instinct that it takes to close out a game or to put it out of reach in the final quarter.

But thats just my assessment....anybody else agree??? even slightly???
I guess I am the only one that feels that way.....
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Old 09-16-2004   #43
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If we don't have 4 turnovers, we win the game. End of story.
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Old 09-16-2004   #44
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Three words sum up the problem with this game:

EXECUTION, EXECUTION, and EXECUTION.

The four turnovers were a product of one of these three words. Take you pick which one applies.
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Old 09-16-2004   #45
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Originally Posted by Bottle-O-Bud
You can't excecute if you are undiciplined. Safeties out of position, WR running wrong routes in the red zone, WR bunching up, QBs throwing on one foot, TE holding, RB not tucking etc....

Isn't that the same as Execution?
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Old 09-16-2004   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porky
Isn't that the same as Execution?
Nahhhh--I am sure it is Palmer's way to play call conservatively by telling the WR's to run wrong routes in the red zone, WR's to bunch up, QBs to throw on one foot, TE's to hold, and RB's not to tuck, etc.
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Old 09-16-2004   #47
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Here are the teams that ran the ball more than we did last week. I guess they are too conservative also. Green Bay, Seattle, Indianapolis, and Tennessee have some of the most dynamic teams in the NFL offensively. They led the league in rushing attempts last week.

Green Bay 47
Seattle 43
Indianapolis 42
Washington 39
Tennessee 36
Buffalo 36
Denver 35
New York (A) 34
Pittsburgh 33
San Diego 32
Chicago 32
Detroit 30
St. Louis 30
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Old 09-16-2004   #48
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If you look at run/pass ratio, the Texans were barely in the top half of the league at 52%/48% run to pass. The record of the teams in the top half of the run/pass ratio was 12 wins - 4 losses. Of course teams with a lead are more likely to run and use clock than teams that are behind. Saying an offense is too predictable, too conservative, too whatever is just too difficult to determine with cursory looks at run/pass ratio. Field position, down & distance, score, the defense the opponent is in, etc., are all factors into what play was called when & why. If someone wants to take a real crack at critiquing Palmer's playcalling taking in all of those factors, great. Otherwise, this thread just becomes another "He said, she said" argument.

But, there is a prevailing attitude among the "pro-Palmer" posters that the coaching staff is blameless regarding this loss. They didn't fumble or throw picks, did they? That's baloney. The coaches are as responsible for execution as the players. These are the plays they designed, these are the plays they taught the players, these are the plays they determined to have the best chance of succeeding in each circumstance. Their fingerprints are all over this loss. No one is immune from criticism. Everyone in the organization has to take their medicine on this one.
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Old 09-16-2004   #49
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Good post Lucky. I agree with all of that. Sure, GB ran the ball 50 times. They were also ahead virtually the whole game, and their defense was actually able to stop the opposition on 3rd downs. I doubt they would be running a play up the gut to the FB in the 4th qtr when they were behind, but hey, what do I know. I'm just a lowly fan. :hehe:
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Old 09-16-2004   #50
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Pfft Arm Chair QB's. Its simple if the play works Palmer is a hero if it fails he is a zero. Nobody was expecting the FB.. maybe he was trying to catch them of guard. I really thought Palmer mixed it up well. Now that he has the tools to work with he is able to open up more of the playbook. Now unless Palmer can go in and guard the defensive left or right end there is very little he can do about the amount of time Carr has to throw. Carr has been running for his life for 2yrs. That doesnt lend itself to a wide open passing game.
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Old 09-16-2004   #51
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Palmer game plans the way Capers tells him to. If you want blame, blame Dom Capers.
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Old 09-18-2004   #52
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Carlton Thompson's article

Will Texans open up the offense?

Q: Carlton, do you foresee Chris Palmer opening up the offense this season?
John in Seagoville

A: John, I believe he will. Sunday’s game was a good example. The Texans spread the ball very well and moved up and down the field at will against the Chargers. They only punted twice. Other than hitting a few big plays in the passing game - and obviously the four turnovers - I thought the Texans had the right approach offensively. Believe me, John, no one wants to get the ball down the field more than Chris Palmer.

END

As for no killer instint in the 4th Quarter. I saw the Texans Offense bounce back from 3 turnovers and drive the ball to the end zone to score the tieing run. But a FUMBLE killed the drive. Now you see why fumbles are SO critical. Everybody forgets all the good that happened before a fumble on a drive and the fans begin to feel as If they are "playing not to lose" and dont have a "winning attitude". Personally I think its all a bunch of bunk.
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Old 09-18-2004   #53
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Quote:
Its simple if the play works Palmer is a hero if it fails he is a zero
Agree with your general intent but I'll add that if the play works, Palmer is rarely or never a hero - it's taken for granted - the player(s) get the credit - and in many cases the play is forgotten by Monday morning. If ANY play fails, especially running plays for less than a 4 yard gain (which comprise about 50% of all rushing plays for all teams on any given Sunday - and god forbid you run two in a row), then it's forever etched into memory - Palmer/Capers gets the blame for being conservative, unimaginitive, and keeping the playbook closed - and he/they should be fired.
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Old 09-18-2004   #54
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I understand that people get tired of harping on the same things over and over. That's one of the downsides of football. With a week of time between games, you generally have run out of things to discuss by Saturday morning. But it just seems entirely pointless to me to focuss much on the coaching staff when, as others have pointed out, there is so very much we don't know. The Baxter run was one of the few playcalls where I think even the average fan can look at it and say "WTF, WHY?" and not be considered to be overreacting. No matter how you look at it, that play didn't make much sense. But in the entire football game, that is really the only legitimate playcall I have seen anyone in here bring up. That's pretty indicative of how difficult it is to pin fault on the coaching staff. We just don't know.

But on the other hand, in terms of the turnovers, we DO know. It's pretty matter-of-fact. Dominick doesn't have the ball. Dominick is handed the ball (or thrown), Dominick has the ball, runs, and then doesn't have the ball. Not many people to blaim there outside of Davis. I doubt we see a repeat. Same with Carr, but to a lesser degree. His situation didn't bother me as much. One INT was on a pass he was trying to force a bit with the time running out and the team trying to get into good FG range, if not a all out TD. The other was on a deflection at the LOS that just happened to launch into freaking orbit and enable the defense to get underneath it easily. That's some bad luck. But hey, it happens.

I feel I'm rambling here so I'll wrap it up. The long and short of it is, the only real, non-muddled, clear target for criticism in most cases (from the perspective of the fans) is the players and their execution. It doesn't seem fair, but it seems to be the way it is. I wish it was possible to sign up for some kind of cable package where you could listen in to the conversations the coaches and players have over their headsets. How awesome would THAT be?

Also, I seem to recall Davis having a couple huge runs being called back because of silly penalities. I hope the team cuts down on those tomorrow as well.
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Old 09-18-2004   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoBullTexan
Palmer game plans the way Capers tells him to. If you want blame, blame Dom Capers.
I am sure Capers and Palmer go over the game plan in general before the game but Im pretty sure Capers himself said Palmer has complete control over the play calling at game time. They script the first few plays and Palmer takes it from there based on the Texans situation.
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Old 09-18-2004   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
Agree with your general intent but I'll add that if the play works, Palmer is rarely or never a hero - it's taken for granted - the player(s) get the credit - and in many cases the play is forgotten by Monday morning. If ANY play fails, especially running plays for less than a 4 yard gain (which comprise about 50% of all rushing plays for all teams on any given Sunday - and god forbid you run two in a row), then it's forever etched into memory - Palmer/Capers gets the blame for being conservative, unimaginitive, and keeping the playbook closed - and he/they should be fired.
LOL...good point A.J. I give some fans too much credit I guess. I know the coaches know better and hopefully the owner too. I was impressed with the 2 screen play calls that happened to come during an all out blitz from the Boltz. I wonder If Palmer picked up on something that tipped him off.

Last edited by Jwwillis; 09-18-2004 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 09-18-2004   #57
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Regardless of who is in there to execute it, the practiced response to coverage on that play was ludicrous for the 4th Q with the game on the line. Any point in the game where we are ahead, sure, run it. If the play was supposed to be DD split out and you think that's a good call in the 4th Quarter, down by 7, then fine (I do, FWIW). However, you always have to consider plan B. If plan B is a FB dive at that point in the game, maybe a professional offensive coordinator should think about these things.

Overall, I agree that he did a fine job in the first half, but the Texans play "not to lose" far too often in the second half than they should. Play to win, guys. Perhaps if Palmer didn't already have a history of calling 3rd-and-long draw plays with the game on the line, the fans would be a tad more forgiving.
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Old 09-18-2004   #58
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Quote:
Its simple if the play works Palmer is a hero if it fails he is a zero
That's true of every OC in the NFL. However, I think you'll find that the number of times a FB dive "works" on 2nd-11 in the 4th Q with the game on the line is very negligible ... no matter which OC is calling it.

As for the turnovers, yes, they lost the game for us, for sure. However, at that point in the game, we were down by 7 with about seven minutes left to play. The turnovers had already been committed and we still had a very legitimate chance to win that game IN SPITE OF the turnovers. That series (the Baxter series) sent the message that the Texans were resigned to losing, whether they intended that message or not.
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Old 09-18-2004   #59
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It was second and 7 and not 2nd and 11. Also, it was a pass play that Carr checked out of to begin with. Tons of teams have run the ball on a 2nd and seven around mid-field over the years with more than half of the 4th quarter left. It's not unusual. I find it amazing the obsession over this.
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Old 09-18-2004   #60
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If it was 2nd-7, then a run is not a ludicrous call, but please hand it to DD, not Baxter. As for where I am getting 2nd-11, that's what was displayed on the scoreboard in Reliant. I was sitting in section 137, end zone. The scoreboard reflected a loss of 1 on the pass in the flat to Baxter. I did TiVo the game, so I'll go back and verify.

Was the scoreboard incorrect? I guess with the glitches going on that day, I wouldn't be too surprised, hehe.
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