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Old 09-14-2004   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
I have no problem with that but it wasn't successful both times. The first time they ran it (on the 1st and 20 in the 1st quarter) it failed miserably.
I believe they ran the play the first time on the 2nd play of the game (2-3). Carr passed to Davis (LB racing to cover him on the sideline) and it was completed for 8 yards and a 1st down.

You are referring to the the play after Miller's hold, I believe. This play looks like the same play to me, but there must be something different. Maybe Davis is motioning out of the backfield instead off lining up on the sideline? On the second play of the game, Davis is lined up as a WR and you can see a LB sprinting out of the middle of the defense (late) to cover him.

I had not looked at the tape prior to the post, I was just passing on what Capers said during his radio show and he said they ran it successfully twice, although Davis fumbled the second time.

The play you mentioned, Carr did give it to Baxter, but I didn't notice much of a LB shift out of the middle (like Capers mentioned).
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Old 09-14-2004   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clandestin
Don't know about you guys, but I sure wasn't predicting we'd only punt twice in that game.
This is a very, very good point. turn overs, turn overs, Carr and especialy Davis had a bad day. Its not even close to being a indicator of how the rest of the season will go.

The team is gonna work through it.
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Old 09-14-2004   #23
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Quote:
You are referring to the the play after Miller's hold, I believe. This play looks like the same play to me, but there must be something different. Maybe Davis is motioning out of the backfield instead off lining up on the sideline?
Yes I was referring to the play after the Miller hold. The LB didn't follow Davis out left -- he stayed inside and killed Baxter - they must have rolled a safety over to help with DD because they didn't flinch when DD went outside.
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Old 09-14-2004   #24
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I thought that was the best play calling Palmer has called to date! Need more screens and passes to DD out in the flat!!

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Originally Posted by footballguy69
Chris Palmer is too predictable. The play calling is terrible. Only good thing Sunday was we spread the ball around to receivers. Defense should look into the mirror. Terrible pass rush from Deloach, Walker and Smith. More blitzs should be called especially on 3rd down and long. The defenses 3rd down allowance was horrible. We need Gary Kubiak as offensive coordinator and send Palmer somewhere else before he screws up Carr like he did Couch! And....BJ Symons will be the 2nd string QB next year. We need his quick reads and quick release. Ragone will be history!
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Old 09-14-2004   #25
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Where was Armstrong? This guy looks to be a player, and I believe he can help take some pressure off of AJ as far as double teams go. True or no?
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Old 09-14-2004   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meisterman
In Regard to Baxter..this is the second string FB..coming off a season of rehab....who earlier in the game dropped a touchdown pass. The mere fact that he is doing anything more than blocking during crunch time in the 4th quarter is poor play selection "period".
He was passing it to M. Breuner but baxter got in his was instead. Mark was wide open in the back of the endzone.
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Old 09-14-2004   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance_C
Where was Armstrong? This guy looks to be a player, and I believe he can help take some pressure off of AJ as far as double teams go. True or no?
He must have been with Antwaan Peek, because both were MIA. Peek can't play the run, but on those third and longs, where was he??? And, I don't remember a 4 wide package at all. Why not? Beats me.

As to Palmer, the second half was just not as good, for the aforementioned reasons. If the checkoff from the pass to DD is a dive play to Jarod Baxter, someone needs to be shot for that. I don't EVER want to see an aubible to Jarod Baxter. That is just pathetic game planning imo. Baxter? YOu have to be kidding me. You are tellimg me our only options are DD or a dive play to Baxter? What a joke.

And if I see Baxter going out for a pass play into the end zone again, someone call a doctor, because their might be a murder. :hehe:
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Old 09-14-2004   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance_C
Where was Armstrong? This guy looks to be a player, and I believe he can help take some pressure off of AJ as far as double teams go. True or no?
I agree. Why the Texans were passing to Baxter and leaving Armstrong on the bench is puzzling. Sometimes you can outsmart yourself.

Still, I think the Texans will utilize Armstrong this season. Maybe this week. The Chargers best CB is out, let's find out what their #5 CB can do by going 4 WRs. I like Armstrong's chances against the rookie Keith Smith.
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Old 09-14-2004   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footballguy69
I am not real excited by 336 yards against last years worst defense! I still say our red zone calls are terrible1
Actually, Atlanta was the worst defense last year, and we were right ahead of them. San Diego ranked around 27th. If you want to go off last year's numbers, then 336 yards of total offense (with four turnovers) with last year's next to worst offense isn't bad.
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Old 09-14-2004   #30
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What's predictable in my opinion is how Chris Palmer gets the heat no matter how the Texans lose. 4 turnovers and hardly any 3rd down stops from the D is the whole freakin story here.

They got 14 points off of those two turnovers. Take 14 points away from the Chargers and it's a 20-13 Texans win. That doesn't even take into account what the Texans might have done with any of those four drives if they hadn't turned it over. Obviously the Texans weren't going to score four TD's on those posessions but if they'd got a FG on one and a TD on another then it's a 30-13 game.

Small things like giving away the football are the difference between

"Chargers over the Texans 27-20, Chris Palmer HAS TO GO!!!!!" and..
"Texans crush Chargers in the opener 30-13, WE'RE GOING TO THE SUPER BOWL!!!!"


And yes, I understand that changing the outcome of particular drives changes the game from that point forward and that this was a gross oversimplification. The point remains the same however.

Execution was the only thing that stood between the Texans and a win last Sunday. It's the only thing that will stand between them and a win next Sunday.
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Old 09-14-2004   #31
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Personally I thought we did well on the play-calling. We were eating them alive on most possessions. I wasn't happy with the Baxter run but Booing the team is uncalled for. The primary reason we lost this game was turnovers. That has nothing to do with offensive play-calling. Look no further than DD and, to a lesser extent, Carr. Blame the bend and break defense. Just don't blame the play-calling. That was not the issue in this game.

I personally am tired of the "Fire Palmer" threads. It is as if every loss MUST be pinned on someone and he is the easy mark. It becomes more apparent with each passing day which of the Texan fans know WTF they are talking about, and which ones are reacting emotionally and without thought.
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Old 09-14-2004   #32
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Herv and Ogre are correct, but that doesn't mean one cannot analyse the coaching staff. I can be objective and critisize when I feel it's needed, and praise when that is called for. I don't see it as simply an either or proposition. The turnovers are done. There is nothing there to really analyse. Those are physical issues, much like Robinson falling down on the touchdown. What can be changed is the game plans, and in game plays and desicions. If those are not open to debate, then what is this forum for? A bunch of brown nosers running around nominating Capers for coach of the year? I call them like I see them, and I will continue to do so. (and I realize this may have been directed to others, just stating MO)
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Old 09-14-2004   #33
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I'm not talking about homerism. I'm just saying broad statements like "Fire Palmer" and "the calls are too conservative" are inadequate. If you are going to question the coaches, players, GM, etc. bring some ammunition. I just see too many vague statements that sound like whining and finger pointing. I want to see details instead of bandwagon complaints. Hey but that is just my want. People are going to do whatever the hell they want.
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Old 09-14-2004   #34
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We lost 4/5 games last year in the fourth quarter, most on the last
possession. We lose to San Diego the same way. Why? Does this just
happen?

There is a turning point when a team goes from loser to winner and vice
versa. Making excuses prolongs this process. The Texans play and are
coached under a '5 yr umbrella.' All of a sudden- somehow - the Texans
are going to begin doing the things necessary to win, as they approach
the end of the 5 years? I don't think so. Why? There has to be a start-
ing point early in the process that continues to build, a process that is
filled with 'playing to win.' Sure, a new team loses but it learns about the
kind of effort and team work it takes to win. That team steps up for each
game, eventually becoming a winner. The Texans do not play to win.
And, most important, the team has not established a starting point.

Finally, the Texans are entering the "what if" period.
...what if we blitzed more
...what if we turned Carr loose
...what if, what if, etc.
It's going to be a long season if the Texans only take what the other
team gives them, while other teams strive to dictate the agenda.
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Old 09-14-2004   #35
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If a person is not analyzing x with relevant data or facts, it's not analysis, it's called uninformed opinion, speculation, chasing red herring, or maybe even wild a$s conjecture. There's so much we don't know in terms of the input to the process (the play call - the cover assignments, whatever) that it's difficult in most cases to make an accurate assessment of the output (the result of the play) except for what we see of course. And we all know there's much more going on than what we see.

We don't know Carr's reads and progressions, we didn't know that Parker was not the responsibility of Aaron Glenn until the next day, we don't know when Carr checks off that it was really supposed to be a screen but instead it was a dive up the middle. John Granato gave an example this morning about a game last year where Peek made a tackle behind the line of scrimmage. Granato mentioned Peek's "great" play to the coaching staff after the game and he was told sternly that Peek missed his real assignment on that play and lucked into a tackle for a loss.

Minus 4 in turnovers, long yardage plays given up to Gates and Caldwell, 40 yard pass interference penalties, and lack of crucial 3rd down stops I can deal with. Play calling sometimes gets into the subjective, because what we see is not always what was intended. That's true for "good" plays and "bad" plays.

There was a guy who called in today and was beyatching about the Texans not throwing more "timing routes." What the hell does that mean? There was another guy who called in on Vandermeer's show and I can't remember the topic but it set Vandermeer off because he was obviously tired of hearing the left field analysis. Sure we have the right to criticize and we should. Many here and on the radio bring fair criticisms. But sometimes the herd mentality on certain things goes way beyond what's sensible imo, and it reflects poorly on us all.

Last edited by aj.; 09-14-2004 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 09-14-2004   #36
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Good stuff AJ. You are correct in that we don't always know the ins and outs. However, the mere fact that the audible on that play was a checkoff to a dive play to Baxter brings into question the whole scheme. We have playmakers all over the field, and the checkoff is to Baxter? Now, that cannot be disputed, as Carr confirmed this himself. That play was simply pathetic. The coaches job is to put the players into the best posisition to win. The best chance to win on that play was not a dive play up the gut by Baxter.
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Old 09-14-2004   #37
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Can't argue with you at all on that particular play. I said that somewhere else too, I don't know if it was in this thread or not. I'm not saying we can't be critical of play calls, I'm just saying certain broad brush criticisms on particular subjects aren't always well thought out.

Last edited by aj.; 09-14-2004 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 09-14-2004   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhc564
The Texans do not play to win. It's going to be a long season if the Texans only take what the other team gives them, while other teams strive to dictate the agenda.

You make a very good point. I was wondering if I was the only one to see it this way. Maybe its just me (and you), but it seems to me like we play our hearts out and most of the time have a lead going in to the fourth quarter...but then all of a sudden our mind set changes and we no longer play to win , but instead play to not lose. And yes there is a difference.

We are no longer the aggressive team that looks to drive down the field and put points on the board...we some how turn into a squad that looks to kill the clock and waste as much time as possible and just hope that we dont give the other team enough time to overcome our lead.

Grant it after this game I know that the turnovers killed us. I mean anytime you fumble the ball on your own goal line....thats gonna hurt you. Especially if they come right back down and score on you...your talking about a 14pt turn around in this case (the 7 we didnt score because of it and the 7 they ended up scoring). Turnover kill your drives and all of your momentum, but again our team has yet to show us that they have that killer instinct that it takes to close out a game or to put it out of reach in the final quarter.

But thats just my assessment....anybody else agree??? even slightly???
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Old 09-14-2004   #39
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And Im with everyone else on the Baxter dive up the middle...I dont know what the hell that was all about, but I assure you that it was not our best option. And if it was....and you had to check off to that...call a freaking time out and get another play cause we all know that wasnt going to cut it....not on 2nd and long atleast.
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Old 09-14-2004   #40
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Is that (the Baxter) the only bad play you saw called? If so I think one play, out of however many we ran, is not indicative of "bad play calling". If you think we lost the game because Carr checked off to Baxter on that play, then I will have to disagree. If you come up with some other plays that were "conservative" or "bad", I might agree with your take. One play in the entire game isn't sufficient evidence to back it up IMO.

AJ, you did a much better job of summing up what I was trying to say.
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