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Old 07-22-2006   #1
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Default David Carr: Amongst the worst in 40 years

It's about time to get another David Carr topic running...

What I am looking for is to see how bad Carr ranks amongst starting QBs that played 4 straight seasons for the same team.

Using only major categories and going back to just 1960.

*Ravens - Kyle Boller in three seasons never cracked a column. Replaced for the the fourth.

Browns - Tim Couch 4 seasons and half.. zilcho.

Colts - Mike Pagel 4 seasons and traded after the fourth.

Giants - Dave Brown removed from play in his 4th season ( due to injury )

Steelers - Mark Malone 4 years as a starter and zilch.

*Raiders - Marc Wilson from 84-87 barely made adjusted yards per pass

*Falcons - Michael Vick in 3 starting seasons almost beats Carr out for the worst. He cracks 8th in his second season for adjusted yards per pass over Bledsoe in 2002.

*Jaguars - Leftwich will be starting his fourth with only one crack in 2005 at 9th in the NFL for yards adjusted per pass.

*Dolphins - Fiedler cracked #10 in TDs thrown in one season out of 4 starting. The rest was barren...


Joe Fergeson, Mike Phipps, Eric Hipple, Joey Harrington, Don Majkowski, Lynn Dickey, Joe Kapp, Bill Kenney, Mike Livingston, Bobby Herbert, Archie Manning, Ken O'Brien, Jim Zorn, Dave Krieg, John Brodie, Neil O'Donnell, Tony Banks, Stan Humphries, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Gus Frerotte, Mark Rypien, and Billy Kilmer.

Every single one of those guys, that held a four year starting slot, had at least one good season cracking the top 10.

David Carr is amongst the worst 4 year starters in the history of the NFL.

Mark Malone, Tim Couch, Mike Pagel, and David Carr.
---

The odd thing I noticed about this... is that under performing QBs have held their starting spot longer post-salary cap! Wonder what that is about?

---

EDIT:

Will add this stat

there are only 3 QBs in the NFL since 1960 that have held their starting job after 4 straight losing seasons

Dan Fouts Chargers 73-76 ( injured for 77 .500 season, winning season 78 )
made 3rd in completions his 4th season 76'

Vinny Testaverde Bucs 88-92 5 seasons ( traded to Cleveland on his 6th )
Who knows? Maybe because of the "U"? 14 seasons starting, 4 with a winning record

Archie Manning 77-81 ( was the starter earlier too, but had a break in 76`with injury )
1st in completions in 72 as full-time starter
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Last edited by TwinSisters; 07-22-2006 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 07-22-2006   #2
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Compare apples with apples -- Carr has been with an expansion team for the first four years. For some reason, folks don't seem to realize this.
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Old 07-22-2006   #3
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wierd that most of the sports writers and coaches think Carr still has what it takes to be a great QB and blame the coaching/o-line/system but you would rather bash Carr, oh well, whatever blows yer skirt up, so to speak..
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Old 07-22-2006   #4
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Problem in your theory because Carr and Vick have both cracked the top 10 in rushing for a QB so does that not make all your work null and void. Good start though and would likely prove alot if done in a spreadsheet with stats and tendencies plotted out. If you come up with that email it to me cause I would love to take a look at it.
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Old 07-22-2006   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach C.
Problem in your theory because Carr and Vick have both cracked the top 10 in rushing for a QB so does that not make all your work null and void. Good start though and would likely prove alot if done in a spreadsheet with stats and tendencies plotted out. If you come up with that email it to me cause I would love to take a look at it.
Not really. Because if you factor in rushes, then you have to factor in sacks and yards lost. Which would then push Carr back into negative yards.

He has 208 for 1226 at 5.8 per attempt going backwards and 215 for 1040 at 4.8 going forward.

Vick on the other hand is 406 for 2082 at 6.9 going forward and 142 for 850 at 5.9 going backwards.

that's a net gain of 1232 ( more than Carr's gross )

Carr as only one season moving forward and that is for less than a hundred yards.

Couldn't really compare them with older QBs because they didn't count sacks/rushing attempts the same. Either way these other QBs from the past 40 years that started for 4 years or more did something in that period that earned them a top 10 spot in a category that remotely matters; completions, wins, yards, TDs, playoffs, non-losing seasons, or even attempts to throw.

Archie didn't have a great line, Fouts didn't have a great coach, Vinny had a horrible team, but he was still able to crack the top ten in yards his first season.

---

As for sports writers:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...109/index.html
Quote:
Carr, who was sacked a league-high 68 times this season, knows when one is coming. "On the road the crowd gets louder. At home the crowd kind of gives an oohh," he says. "The biggest thing is that you know there's nothing you can do about it. The last two feet before he gets to you, you're just trying to get down, make yourself tiny and see if you can avoid a big one. Then you've got to bounce up faster than the guy who sacked you to show them your team is not defeated."
Hmmm nothing you can do about it?

Quote:
"I felt like we were playing to our potential today," David Carr said after the narrow loss to the Bengals. Sacked seven times. Playing to their potential. God help them.
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...rt2/index.html

This is good because 3 out 4 Americans believe in miracles.
---
Joe Montana, Hall of Fame quarterback and amongst the greatest to ever play the position, what's his assessment of Carr's past 4 years?

"hadn't done anything." - Joe on Dave
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Old 07-22-2006   #6
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The problem that I have with your contention of those teams is that the only one that had a comparable situation to us was Tim Couch and the Browns, them also being an expansion team. Obviously we've have offensive line problems, and I'll take a bet with you any day that a team with major offensive line problems like ours will never garner better than a .500 record until those problems are fixed.

There's a reason why just about everyone in the professional sports community thinks Carr has what it takes...maybe you'd see that something too if you had as much experience as they do.
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Old 07-22-2006   #7
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I'm anxiously waiting for the Carr 's to flood this thread, though I'm enjoying it! IMO, this thread will be 'special,' TWINSISTERS, because you are very good at come backs and you can usually back-up your statements. Initally, I think this post will 'shock' some people because they consider it 'taboo' to say anything negative about Carr anytime-anywhere-anyplace. I can only hope that we hear some new responses to this thread and not the same old excuses for David that we all know 'by heart.'

This team is never going to win with a QB that can only function when 'everything' around him is 'perfect.' Several posters have attempted-before being 'lambasted'-to discuss the intangible concept of 'it.' The greatest QBs of all times (Unitas,Starr,Staubach,Montanna,etc.) were not always the 'proto type' player with all the physical attributes, but they had 'it'-whatever it took to win. They inspired those around them with a confidence and performance that never ever was based on failure or excuses. And, the 'buck' stopped with them. Unitas,especially, defies the definition of a #1 drafted QB (which he was not). He was nothing special coming out of Louisville but went on to 'greatness' in the NFL. Tall and gangly, he was not a runner or a strong-armed thrower but he had 'it.'

Carr's legacy entering his 5th year is that he has been unable to perform his best because of the 'circumstances' around him. He has not even been expected to do well when all was OK around him, an unfortunate result of zero accountability. One has to wonder now-in this 5th year with so much change around him-if Carr can find 'it.' IMO, it will be very sad --regardless of anything else this season--if 'accountabilty' is still not part of the equation...
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Old 07-22-2006   #8
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"There's a reason why just about everyone in the professional sports community thinks Carr has what it takes...maybe you'd see that something too if you had as much experience as they do."

There have been a lot of first round QBs that have failed (George,Smith,Dilfer,Couch,Klinger,Ware,etc.)--you don't think these same 'sports folks' did not say the same things about them? IMO, this statement is not an indicator of 'anything.'
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Old 07-22-2006   #9
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And to make it even scarier, Tim Couch had better stats and a better record than Carr while in the same situation. I'd look for those 2 to be playing golf together on Sundays in the near future.
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Old 07-22-2006   #10
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Another Carr thread!

Before you can start a serious Carr thread, you must think about some things first. If everyone did just that, there would be a tenth of the number of Carr threads on this MB. Let's begin.

First, what do you think of Joey Harrington?

Secondly, what division are we in?

Third, how many years have the Texans been in existance?

Answer those for me and maybe you can see where I am coming from. Actually, nevermind. I don't expect you to have any idea where my argument is coming from. I will write a follow up after next season.
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Old 07-22-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSisters
It's about time to get another David Carr topic running...

What I am looking for is to see how bad Carr ranks amongst starting QBs that played 4 straight seasons for the same team.

Using only major categories and going back to just 1960.

*Ravens - Kyle Boller in three seasons never cracked a column. Replaced for the the fourth.

Browns - Tim Couch 4 seasons and half.. zilcho.

Colts - Mike Pagel 4 seasons and traded after the fourth.

Giants - Dave Brown removed from play in his 4th season ( due to injury )

Steelers - Mark Malone 4 years as a starter and zilch.

*Raiders - Marc Wilson from 84-87 barely made adjusted yards per pass

*Falcons - Michael Vick in 3 starting seasons almost beats Carr out for the worst. He cracks 8th in his second season for adjusted yards per pass over Bledsoe in 2002.

*Jaguars - Leftwich will be starting his fourth with only one crack in 2005 at 9th in the NFL for yards adjusted per pass.

*Dolphins - Fiedler cracked #10 in TDs thrown in one season out of 4 starting. The rest was barren...


Joe Fergeson, Mike Phipps, Eric Hipple, Joey Harrington, Don Majkowski, Lynn Dickey, Joe Kapp, Bill Kenney, Mike Livingston, Bobby Herbert, Archie Manning, Ken O'Brien, Jim Zorn, Dave Krieg, John Brodie, Neil O'Donnell, Tony Banks, Stan Humphries, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, Gus Frerotte, Mark Rypien, and Billy Kilmer.

Every single one of those guys, that held a four year starting slot, had at least one good season cracking the top 10.

David Carr is amongst the worst 4 year starters in the history of the NFL.

Mark Malone, Tim Couch, Mike Pagel, and David Carr.
---

The odd thing I noticed about this... is that under performing QBs have held their starting spot longer post-salary cap! Wonder what that is about?

---

EDIT:

Will add this stat

there are only 3 QBs in the NFL since 1960 that have held their starting job after 4 straight losing seasons

Dan Fouts Chargers 73-76 ( injured for 77 .500 season, winning season 78 )
made 3rd in completions his 4th season 76'

Vinny Testaverde Bucs 88-92 5 seasons ( traded to Cleveland on his 6th )
Who knows? Maybe because of the "U"? 14 seasons starting, 4 with a winning record

Archie Manning 77-81 ( was the starter earlier too, but had a break in 76`with injury )
1st in completions in 72 as full-time starter
Twinsisters this is a great article. This is exactly what I've been saying for the last 4 years about Carrs. But, here's another point to ponder Daivd Carr is probably the only QB in NFL history to be rewarded with a 8 million dollars bonus and a new contract after having 4 losing seasons in a row and one of the worst QB rating ever recorded. Now, that's amazing!
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Old 07-22-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the wonger need food
And to make it even scarier, Tim Couch had better stats and a better record than Carr while in the same situation. I'd look for those 2 to be playing golf together on Sundays in the near future.
Tim Couch has no shoulder left after multiple surgeries. Did you count career ending injuries towards your statistics. If you hadn't read around the league the last couple of years, he had major surgery on his shoulder and lasic surgery on his eyes, both reasons he claims to have failed in Cleveland. Couch has been given a couple test runs through the past couple of off seasons, but he will never make it back to the NFL. It's little things like this that ruin statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NATHANHALE

There have been a lot of first round QBs that have failed (George,Smith,Dilfer,Couch,Klinger,Ware,etc.)--you don't think these same 'sports folks' did not say the same things about them? IMO, this statement is not an indicator of 'anything.'
Actually no, analysts don't give them much time. Look at recent picks, Joey Harrington was considered a bust after 3 years, because he was given talent and did nothing with it. J.P. Losman is getting flack from most of the "sports guys" and he's only in year 2. Basically, these guys can see talent. I remember reading an artircle on Carr a few months back, (I wish I could find it), which basically said that only three prototypoe quarterbacks have come out in the last 10 years, Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer and David Carr. That's some pretty elite company. Carr has a cannon, can move and had very little talent and coaching for 4 years. Stats can't show that.
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Old 07-22-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans86
Tim Couch has no shoulder left after multiple surgeries. Did you count career ending injuries towards your statistics. If you hadn't read around the league the last couple of years, he had major surgery on his shoulder and lasic surgery on his eyes, both reasons he claims to have failed in Cleveland.
All of those physical issues and he was still better than Carr. That makes it even scarier.
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Old 07-22-2006   #14
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A BIG fact, that's conveniently overlooked for this little comparison is the changes in NFL scheduling.

Carr is the only QB in that list to have to take an expansion team through its beginning years w/o the benefit of a TRUE SoS adjustment.

Since the NFL wanted to make sure that EVERY team in EVERY division played each other every x years, it subsequently left only 2 GAMES to adjust for the previous years success / failure.

As a result, this year's Texans have to play the 8th hardest schedule in the NFL, despite finishing last season ranked #32.

To re-iterate the point TL13 was making, being in the AFC South has added to Carr's woes, since the Texans aren't getting the schedule adjustments that they would have in years past.

...don't even get me started on our O-Line , blocking scheme changes, etc.:brickwall
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Old 07-22-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disaacks3
A BIG fact, that's conveniently overlooked for this little comparison is the changes in NFL scheduling.

Carr is the only QB in that list to have to take an expansion team through its beginning years w/o the benefit of a TRUE SoS adjustment.

Since the NFL wanted to make sure that EVERY team in EVERY division played each other every x years, it subsequently left only 2 GAMES to adjust for the previous years success / failure.

As a result, this year's Texans have to play the 8th hardest schedule in the NFL, despite finishing last season ranked #32.

To re-iterate the point TL13 was making, being in the AFC South has added to Carr's woes, since the Texans aren't getting the schedule adjustments that they would have in years past.

...don't even get me started on our O-Line , blocking scheme changes, etc.:brickwall

This is the most original excuse that I've seen, probably ever. Well played...
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Old 07-22-2006   #16
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Wow, someone has facts to support the fact that Carr sucks. What a surprise. Now you are going to tell me that the sky is blue. Bottom line is this franchise has pinned their hopes on this horrible QB and we have to make due until they finally realize the guy is a worthless pile of dog excrement. He doesnt have the dedication it takes to be a quality NFL quarterback and should look into modeling or becoming a preacher.

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Old 07-22-2006   #17
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THIS?

AGAIN?

Congratulations, Twin Sisters!

You are the proud owner of about the 1,000th thread bashing David Carr.

You should feel like you truly have an "eye" for the game.

(A third eye, that is)

Can the mods lock out the Carr Bashing threads AT LEAST until somewhere in the middle of the season after we've all had a chance to see him in a system that doesn't emulate Capers' pee-wee league playcalling?

You guys are risking a lot here. If Carr goes out and "wows" the league this year, you're going to look awfully silly. I think I'll start a list of all the bashers and keep it for the future when you back pedal and post your "Way to go, David!" threads. There'll be a big "calling out" party by yours truly.

Thanks again for the top-notch analysis.
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Old 07-22-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinSisters
It's about time to get another David Carr topic running...

No....it's not.
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Old 07-22-2006   #19
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I'm not one who hates or loves Carr. But I certainly feel that he should get a chance in his new environment. We all know that our kids grow up much in the mold of their mentor parents. Carr was a "kid" when he entered the NFL........his "parents" in many ways abandoned him and have been discredited of being good parents from a myriad of perspectives. Particularly telling......most have disappeared into anonymity. So yes, I am willing to allow him this year to see if he is able to fly, or or die under the tutelage of his new more discipline-oriented "stepparents."
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Old 07-22-2006   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
THIS?

AGAIN?

Congratulations, Twin Sisters!

You are the proud owner of about the 1,000th thread bashing David Carr.

You should feel like you truly have an "eye" for the game.

(A third eye, that is)

Can the mods lock out the Carr Bashing threads AT LEAST until somewhere in the middle of the season after we've all had a chance to see him in a system that doesn't emulate Capers' pee-wee league playcalling?

You guys are risking a lot here. If Carr goes out and "wows" the league this year, you're going to look awfully silly. I think I'll start a list of all the bashers and keep it for the future when you back pedal and post your "Way to go, David!" threads. There'll be a big "calling out" party by yours truly.
Thanks again for the top-notch analysis.

I've actually thought of doing the same thing. While I'm not a Carr ''homer'', I do still have confidence in him to be a sucessful QB. So I'm really curious as to what all the Carr haters responces would be if Carr does turn it around.
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