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Old 06-08-2006   #1
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Default PROOF POSITIVE: Our team was badly coached by Capers (SI.com Carr article)

I've had it with the constant David Carr bashing.

It's all "opinion" until you read this quote from Bob McNair, he's that guy that kinda' runs the team and stuff. So listen up to what the boss man has to say about David Carr in an SI.com article (because it's the only opinion that COUNTS):

-----------------

Would you buy a used Carr from this man? Kubiak did, and McNair says that the six other head coaching candidates he interviewed after firing Capers in late December concurred that the quarterback was salvageable. Says the owner: "I asked all of them, 'Can he take us where we want to go?' And every one of them said, 'Absolutely.'"

SIX OTHER HEAD COACHING CANDIDATES SAID CARR WAS THE MAN FOR THE JOB.

Done.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...len&id=2474430
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Old 06-08-2006   #2
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I pointed this out also in the SI thread that is on here. I think it hits it pretty dead on.
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Old 06-08-2006   #3
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Like we didn't already know Capers screwed up our team...
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Old 06-08-2006   #4
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Sorry, but that doesn't "prove" anything, except that the HC canditates knew that in order to get the job, Carr was part of the package. Knowing that, how many would say to put the Carr in the garage?
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Old 06-08-2006   #5
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Originally Posted by Porky
Sorry, but that doesn't "prove" anything, except that the HC canditates knew that in order to get the job, Carr was part of the package. Knowing that, how many would say to put the Carr in the garage?
Well since the job pressure response was predictable, I'll add McNair was interviewed on the radio the other day and said not a single person he has talked to connected to any NFL team has said Carr doesn't have what it takes.

Like anything anyone says is going to change anyone's mind around here about Carr at this point. Sorry, I have to go off and hum a Jerry Jeff Walker song about the wind now.
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Old 06-08-2006   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porky
Sorry, but that doesn't "prove" anything, except that the HC canditates knew that in order to get the job, Carr was part of the package. Knowing that, how many would say to put the Carr in the garage?
We've been over this ten thousand times, but I don't know where this comes from ... other than a person's inability to perceive good in Carr and the subsequent necessity of inventing a conspiracy theory for his remaining here.

If we are going to argue on the basis of theory, try this. Bob McNair didn't become filthy rich by holding on to pet friendships or unwillingness to admit "mistakes." He isn't going to risk his multi-multi-multi-million dollar franchise on his golfing buddy. He is a businessman running a very prominent business, and he has gone out of his way to shred his previous management for incompetence, hire outside consultants and a new staff, all of whom strangely agree that David Carr should remain here. This is testament to an ugly truth: that Carr is precisely the caliber of player that Kubiak, every other coach, Bob McNair, me, and I don't even know how many other people have been telling you all along he is.

David Carr has the talent, but previous to this season, he hasn't had the tools to get it done. Now that he has the tools, it is put up or shut up time. I think he will put up, but I respect your right to disagree. I don't respect half-baked conspiracy theories that fly in the face of every shred of logical observation. If you are still upset about Reggie Bush, don't take it out on McNair.

Come on Pork, you're capable of better.
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Old 06-08-2006   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porky
Sorry, but that doesn't "prove" anything, except that the HC canditates knew that in order to get the job, Carr was part of the package. Knowing that, how many would say to put the Carr in the garage?
Porky, right on the money. Almost exactly what I would have said.

I am sure all candidates were coached on what to say and what not say. Also, the interviewer and interviewee of any job say things they don't necessarily mean in order to get the job or applicant. I have done it in every interview, understanding what the interviewer wants and giving it to them. Once in the job, then you can make changes after you win the respcect.

Check this out about McNair going to Baltimore and basically replacing Boller, a first round draft pick,

"Make a mistake on a first-round draft choice at any position and there is a price to pay. Make a bad call on a first-round quarterback, however, and the financial implications are sometimes doubled, because it costs a lot of money to rectify the error."

Here is the link, http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...len&id=2474430.

IMO, McNair considers he is to far invested in Carr at this point to bail out and Kubiak can provide the final analysis and judgement.

We could very easily be in Balitmore's position this time next year regarding the QB position.

Carr has to get started early this season with either a .500 record or better than good states by the mid-season or he may not build up enough momentum to carryover through the next draft and offseason.
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Old 06-08-2006   #8
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Originally Posted by jerek
We've been over this ten thousand times, but I don't know where this comes from ... other than a person's inability to perceive good in Carr and the subsequent necessity of inventing a conspiracy theory for his remaining here.

If we are going to argue on the basis of theory, try this. Bob McNair didn't become filthy rich by holding on to pet friendships or unwillingness to admit "mistakes." He isn't going to risk his multi-multi-multi-million dollar franchise on his golfing buddy. He is a businessman running a very prominent business, and he has gone out of his way to shred his previous management for incompetence, hire outside consultants and a new staff, all of whom strangely agree that David Carr should remain here. This is testament to an ugly truth: that Carr is precisely the caliber of player that Kubiak, every other coach, Bob McNair, me, and I don't even know how many other people have been telling you all along he is.

David Carr has the talent, but previous to this season, he hasn't had the tools to get it done. Now that he has the tools, it is put up or shut up time. I think he will put up, but I respect your right to disagree. I don't respect half-baked conspiracy theories that fly in the face of every shred of logical observation. If you are still upset about Reggie Bush, don't take it out on McNair.

Come on Pork, you're capable of better.
If Carr was paid 2nd or 3rd round draft pick money he would have been gone a long time ago.
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Old 06-08-2006   #9
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Originally Posted by TexanFan881
Like we didn't already know Capers screwed up our team...
No, some of us don't get it.

Like Bobo: He thinks Capers should have stayed, and he's fully convinced that Kubiak will fail because Capers was the man for the job.

And like even one of the best guys on this board who shall remain nameless. He thinks Carr is a waste of player. And like a guy who runs the other Texans message board. He won't let some things die about Carr, he's fed up and he's had it with him.

And when you try to talk REASON with them, and you try to point out very real proof that Carr is the man for the QB job, and that Capers was not the man for the HC job....you get no admission from them whatsoever that McNair just MIGHT be right in his decision making recently.

So, this is why that quote by mcNair is so very crucial. We all speculate about "what" McNair is thinking. Well, he came out and said it. And so did six other HC candidates.

And as far as the argument that says, "Yeah, but the HC candidates were "coached" to say that they felt Carr was the guy. I don't buy it, and it's just MORE of the same from the people who invent things to fit their own gripes about Carr....gripes that mean diddly squat because the guy who holds the keys to this team has got it on pretty good record that Carr is the man, and Kubiak is the man.
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Old 06-08-2006   #10
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Carr is the man for the job, because if he wasn't then he would have been a waste of a 1st round pick. McNair wouldn't have given him a 3 year extension on his contract. McNair knew that he did not do a good job in hiring good coaches.

Remember, McNair brought in Dan Reeves to evaluate his football team.
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Old 06-08-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollywood_texan
If Carr was paid 2nd or 3rd round draft pick money he would have been gone a long time ago.
why? we could've cut carr loose without him costing us a penny and started fresh with the qb of kubiak's choosing. we knew when carr was re-signed that we'd have the option of leinhart or young, or could've gone after griese who'd played 5 years under kubiak (at a substancial discount). we willingly spent extra on carr because the coaches & management obviously thought he was the best option.

i know it's the offseason, but it's disheartening to see these conspiracy theories from posters i usually enjoy reading. mcnair wanted carr. reeves wanted carr. casserly wanted carr. kubiak wanted carr. 6 other coaches interviewed wanted carr. and all have made that fact known. seriously, if you dislike the decision or the player, just say so. calling the team you're supposedly rooting for a bunch of liars just makes you look silly.
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Old 06-08-2006   #12
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This doesnt prove anything. Carr needs to prove he was worth the #1 pick. And considering the only QB Bob McNair has "owned" is Carr, thats setting the bar kind of low. Time to put up the numbers or let us move on and find another QB. Either way, its going to be a good season.
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Old 06-08-2006   #13
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Originally Posted by Scooter
why?
Before the $8 million roster payment, they had already paid something $25 million to Carr and they didn't want to bail out on that. That's a big investment to walk away from.

Now, if in the first four years he had only been paid say $10 million with the $8 million dollar roster payment. I think Carr would have been tossed or someone with high ability would be legitimately providing competition to the position.
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Old 06-08-2006   #14
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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan
I am sure all candidates were coached on what to say and what not say. Also, the interviewer and interviewee of any job say things they don't necessarily mean in order to get the job or applicant. I have done it in every interview, understanding what the interviewer wants and giving it to them.
We aren't talking about applying to be an accountant, secretary, lawyer, etc. where your job performance is the primary measure of your success and where there isn't a turnover for failure of the organization as a whole to become the best or one of the best within 3-4 years (the average tenure of an NFL coach now--it is win now or out).

Quote:
Once in the job, then you can make changes after you win the respcect.
And you proved your own conspiracy theory wrong (or how different this situation is from normal job interviews) with one sentence. Kubiak won't ever win McNair's respect if he can't get Carr going successfully. Being wrong on the most important question at the time of your hiring (and you would have to be wrong because you sure aren't going to say I was fibbing to get the job) ain't a big ole check mark on the job performance chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter
if you dislike the decision or the player, just say so. calling the team you're supposedly rooting for a bunch of liars just makes you look silly.
What he said.
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Old 06-08-2006   #15
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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan
Before the $8 million roster payment, they had already paid something $25 million to Carr and they didn't want to bail out on that. That's a big investment to walk away from.

Now, if in the first four years he had only been paid say $10 million with the $8 million dollar roster payment. I think Carr would have been tossed or someone with high ability would be legitimately providing competition to the position.
if you just lost 25 million, would you trust the same guy with another 24? maybe i'm just tired, but that logic seems terribly flawed. had he been making a lot less money, it'd be easier to bring carr back for the fact that you'd get his talent for cheap. making carr one of the highest payed players in the league when we could've cut bait for free doesnt make much sense, if, according to you, carr isnt good enough for the job.
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Old 06-08-2006   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter
if you just lost 25 million, would you trust the same guy with another 24? maybe i'm just tired, but that logic seems terribly flawed. had he been making a lot less money, it'd be easier to bring carr back for the fact that you'd get his talent for cheap. making carr one of the highest payed players in the league when we could've cut bait for free doesnt make much sense, if, according to you, carr isnt good enough for the job.

First, Carr is not one of the higher paid quarterbacks in the league, he is in the middle somewhere.

Second, even though he is overpaid from previous performance, who is going to replace him if you don't go through the draft this year, Kerry Collins, Daunte Culpepper, Aaron Brooks, and Joey Harrington? Ouch, regardless of Carr's play and how much we have paid him, I am not sure I want any of those guys running the offense.

It is hard and expensive to find a franchise quarterback and it is even harder and more expensive to replace a failed franchise quarterback. If you don't think so, look at Baltimore. They bailed on the their 2003 first round pick by trading for McNair from Tennessee.

Also, keep in mind if you have a great defense and a strong running game (example, Pittsburgh), you really don't need a stud QB but one that makes decisions to not lose a game (example, Big Ben).

The decision to keep Carr isn't a zero sum game involving just money, it also involves available talent and the the current climate in the league that produces the winners and what it takes.

If Kubiak is as good as I think he is, Carr won't have to make a decision or play to win, he will just need to make sure he doesn't lose the game.
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Old 06-08-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porky
Sorry, but that doesn't "prove" anything, except that the HC canditates knew that in order to get the job, Carr was part of the package. Knowing that, how many would say to put the Carr in the garage?

So what you're saying is that a HC candidate will lie to his potential future employer guaranteeing that he will be stuck with a QB who he believes will not secure his job and may even endanger it.
The first important question/decision of a new HC's job would be based on a lie that he would have to continue to perpetrate publicly week after week after week.
Then if Carr never becomes that player, the new HC would what? Admit he was wrong? That he lied to get the job?

Sorry Porky, I don't buy it. If you are in line for that kind of position, you don't hang a huge albatross around your own neck before you even get the job.

Thanks for playing though... carry on scrutinizing your Warren Report...
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Old 06-08-2006   #18
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
And you proved your own conspiracy theory wrong (or how different this situation is from normal job interviews) with one sentence. Kubiak won't ever win McNair's respect if he can't get Carr going successfully. Being wrong on the most important question at the time of your hiring (and you would have to be wrong because you sure aren't going to say I was fibbing to get the job) ain't a big ole check mark on the job performance chart.



What he said.
How is this a conspiracy? I think you are characterization is a little over the top.

As for Kubaik not getting Carr going and his success depends on it, does that mean if Carr does the same performance in 2006 as 2005 that Kubiak should be fired?

Kubiak can only tell Carr what to do and coach him, Carr has to perform.

I believe Kubiak is a much better coach than to have his first head coaching job hinge on the play of one player in his first head coaching gig. If Carr is a failure, Kubiak will dump him and move on and I am sure McNair will not think anything less of Kubiak.

This whole Carr discussion is ridiculous.
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Old 06-08-2006   #19
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this info came out before we had picked Kubiak.. and all the Carr bashers at that time said "Of course they said Carr was salvagable, McNair is in love with him and you tell your boss what they want to hear".
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Old 06-08-2006   #20
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Originally Posted by Porky
Sorry, but that doesn't "prove" anything, except that the HC canditates knew that in order to get the job, Carr was part of the package. Knowing that, how many would say to put the Carr in the garage?
While I tend to believe that yes, Carr can take the Texans where they want to go I have to agree with Porky in saying that you can't take those 6 "opinions" and call it a fact. Even if it wasn't necessarily true that making things work with David Carr was part of the package you cannot discount the possibility that one or more of the candidates may have believed it was.

They were being interviewed to replace Dom Capers would could not win with David Carr at QB (but obviously there were several other factors there too) so what do you expect them to say? They're going to say "Yes, I can do what Dom Capers could not do" because that's why the Texans were looking for a new coach, end of story really.
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