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Old 06-05-2006   #1
AFD1717
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Default Why is our O-Line so big?

I understand it is more about athleticism than size, but it seems like our o-line is much bigger than others that run the Zone Scheme.

Denver: AVG - 298

LT Lepsis - 290
FG Hamilton - 283
C Nalen - 286
RG Carlisle - 295
RT Foster - 338

Atlanta: AVG - 302

LT Gandy - 315
LG Lehr - 305
C McClure - 286
RG Forney - 307
RT Weiner - 297

Houston: AVG - 317

LT Wand - 330 (Spencer 352)
LG Pitts - 320
C Flanagan - 301
RG McKinney - 302
RT Wiegert - 309 (Winston 302)

Is it just because we happened to find guys who can move and operate in space that happen to be big too, or are we doing something different?
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Old 06-05-2006   #2
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Better steak houses in Houston maybe?

All those guys seem big to me. Isn't it pretty much common for linemen these days to be 300 pounds?
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Old 06-05-2006   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFD1717
I understand it is more about athleticism than size, but it seems like our o-line is much bigger than others that run the Zone Scheme.


Houston: AVG - 317

LT Wand - 330 (Spencer 352)
LG Pitts - 320
C Flanagan - 301
RG McKinney - 302
RT Wiegert - 309 (Winston 302)

Is it just because we happened to find guys who can move and operate in space that happen to be big too, or are we doing something different?
For the most part, the coaches want them at a lower playing weight than shown here. Spencer for one is on a strict diet. Some will lose weight naturally through the rigors of training camp. There may also be cases where we have lineman that are both big and quick enough for the system.
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Old 06-05-2006   #4
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Originally Posted by WWJD
Better steak houses in Houston maybe?

All those guys seem big to me. Isn't it pretty much common for linemen these days to be 300 pounds?
In a zone scheme, linemen are usually right around 300 or less. Look at the weights of the Denver linemen where this scheme was made popular. The guys in Atlanta are a little bigger than Denver's, but our guys are the size of linemen in a regular scheme.
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Old 06-05-2006   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFD1717
In a zone scheme, linemen are usually right around 300 or less. Look at the weights of the Denver linemen where this scheme was made popular. The guys in Atlanta are a little bigger than Denver's, but our guys are the size of linemen in a regular scheme.

AFD - thanks for posting this question... I've been wondering the same thing.

I've assumed that since the scheme, Kubiak, et al... is so new, it would take time for everyone to lose the weight. I was a bit thrown, though, when we grabbed Spencer (352) in the draft then tagged him as a LT. They must have seen agility there and surmised that he could lose the weight and gain even more quickness... Runner says he's on a diet, so then maybe that's the case.

Regardless, good question.
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Old 06-05-2006   #6
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Old 06-05-2006   #7
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Wand, Pitts, Spencer, Winston are all very athletic linemen who happen to be above 300 lbs. Denver's best OLman is 330 (George Foster). So, the size doesn't preclude a lineman from being successful in this scheme. Todd Wade is the kind of slow-footed lineman that won't work in the system- but I'm pretty sure he's history.
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Old 06-05-2006   #8
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Maybe smaller guys do better not only in the zone blocking but also in the high altitude .
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Old 06-05-2006   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy
Wand, Pitts, Spencer, Winston are all very athletic linemen who happen to be above 300 lbs.
True but speed and quickness are more important than size and power in
ZB, so if a player is quick at 315, he should be even quicker and therefor even more effective at say 295. And few of these OLineman are trim as they
use diets and weight train to maxamize bulk, but this priority will now change and expect to see them get lean (relatively speaking).
Some guys will really benefit: I remember seeing Hodgdon last year at the scrimmages and he was only 6'2" or so tops, but had a really big gut 'cause he wanted to get his weight to around 300. Now he can drop down < 290, and give the coachs even more of what they want by maxamizing his quickness without sacrificing anything.
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Old 06-05-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nunusguy
True but speed and quickness are more important than size and power in
ZB, so if a player is quick at 315, he should be even quicker and therefor even more effective at say 295. And few of these OLineman are trim as they
use diets and weight train to maxamize bulk, but this priority will now change and expect to see them get lean (relatively speaking).
Some guys will really benefit: I remember seeing Hodgdon last year at the scrimmages and he was only 6'2" or so tops, but had a really big gut 'cause he wanted to get his weight to around 300. Now he can drop down < 290, and give the coachs even more of what they want by maxamizing his quickness without sacrificing anything.
I'd agree with this for some of the lineman, but they really need to be looked at individually. At the other extreme, having a 6' 7" guy playing at 300 may cost more in strength than he makes up for in additional quickness. Each player has his own weight goals. Quick and mobile at 315 may be better than slightly more quick and mobile at 305.

I'm sure our strength and conditioning guys are working with the other coaches to reach the right balance for each player.
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Old 06-05-2006   #11
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IMO, Kubiak is probably making the most of what he has, and will be putting some guys on diets. He had to see what he had to work with during the OTA's before he could assign reporting weights to players.
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Old 06-05-2006   #12
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Zone blocking scheme has to do with quickness and walling you man off, not so much the weight. Granted, smaller OL have an easier time and are usually quicker, but that isnt always the case. The heaviest guy on there (Spencer) for example is an amazing athlete and has great quickness. You also have to realize that this is year 1 of the Denver running game coming to us, so we have to be patient and give Kubiak some time.
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Old 06-05-2006   #13
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Exactly Lork. If you aren't a certain weight it doesn't mean you can't fit at a certain spot. It doesn't matter if you're a 250 pound lineman or a 350 pound lineman. If you have talent, you have it. If you don't, you don't.
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Old 06-05-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexanFan881
Exactly Lork. If you aren't a certain weight it doesn't mean you can't fit at a certain spot. It doesn't matter if you're a 250 pound lineman or a 350 pound lineman. If you have talent, you have it. If you don't, you don't.
I agree with this completely. A guy who is 295 lbs who is strong as a bull and can move like a mongoose is worthless if at the end of the day his man beats him. Give me a guy with lovehandles and quickness that understands angles and positioning and he'll succeed in this system despite being 330.

My point is simply that the guys we found seem to be so much bigger than the guys other teams are using. I understand that Spencer is on a diet and his body hasn't had time to adapt from being a DT, then an OG, then and OT, and now an OT in a Zone Scheme. If we drop him (our biggest guy) and Foster (Denver's biggest guy), the averages come out to:

Houston: 310.6
Denver: 288.5

That is a pretty staggering difference. I was just wondering if we are really running the exact same system as the Broncos or if we've modified it a little.
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Old 06-05-2006   #15
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I think its an assumption from many a fan that only one body type player can fit into this scheme ... Its been driven into our heads on this board since before the draft that the ZBS is better suited to smaller linemen because they are more agile . But if a man of 325-350 lbs can carry the weight and still maintain the agility / quickness required then he in theory should be a better lineman .... Its just not often that a man of that size can carry the weight .
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Old 06-05-2006   #16
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kubiak didnt have a choice with most of his linemen here. it wasnt as if we could go out and in one season create a new offensive line. one, because we actually did have a little talent already in place, and two because no one lets their offensive linemen become available without a fight. combine that with the fact that many of our linemen are a bit taller, and we're going to be a little heavier than the norm. the heaviest guy on that listing is wand, who at 6'7" is a full 2 inches taller than any starter in denver. he probably wont be dropping much weight because mobility has never been a problem, but strength has been an issue and dropping pounds could be counter productive (although it's been noted that wand carries around what some call "baby fat", he might lean a little as he ages). pitts however could lose 5-10lbs and retain strength if kubiak feels he'd have more to offer if he were to trim down.

in a few years we could see those numbers drop as we add players of kubiaks' choosing, although wand & spencer will probably offset any shrinking the rest of the line does.
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Old 06-05-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter
kubiak didnt have a choice with most of his linemen here. it wasnt as if we could go out and in one season create a new offensive line. one, because we actually did have a little talent already in place, and two because no one lets their offensive linemen become available without a fight. combine that with the fact that many of our linemen are a bit taller, and we're going to be a little heavier than the norm. the heaviest guy on that listing is wand, who at 6'7" is a full 2 inches taller than any starter in denver. he probably wont be dropping much weight because mobility has never been a problem, but strength has been an issue and dropping pounds could be counter productive (although it's been noted that wand carries around what some call "baby fat", he might lean a little as he ages). pitts however could lose 5-10lbs and retain strength if kubiak feels he'd have more to offer if he were to trim down.

in a few years we could see those numbers drop as we add players of kubiaks' choosing, although wand & spencer will probably offset any shrinking the rest of the line does.
Just curious: has anyone posting here met any of the Houston linemen? Specifically, did anyone go to the Total Access thing this past week? Did the linemen look fat? Did Wand look like he's carrying around any baby fat?
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Old 06-05-2006   #18
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this is purely my theory so its probably wrong but if you look at denver and atlanta..they're both excellent running teams but their linemen arent so great at pass blocking probably due to their lack of size..so maybe kubiak is trying to find a better balance with our o-line with bigger bodies
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Old 06-05-2006   #19
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Or maybe they just like cheeseburgers.
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Old 06-05-2006   #20
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Is it possible Kubiak - people say he was under a control freak in Denver - has some ideas of his own. As some have said, perhapes we will be seeing the awakening of the Gulf Coast Offense. I keep saying don't paint Kubiak with the same brush as Denver.

There may be similarities, but I will bet there will be some surprising differences. Again as others have stated Denver had a different style when Elway was there. Kubiak likes Carr a lot and he sees a lot of similarities to Elway. Carr may not be a total Elway, but he has a lot of Elway's traits. Therefore an Elway like offense might make sense.

I keep saying you don't have 3 wide receivers with the size, hands, and speed we have to sit them on the bench for decoration. They are going to be out there for a reason. Clue #1, I don't think the other team is going to like the reason.
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