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Old 05-22-2006   #1
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Default Greenwood was statistically our best LB in 2005...by FAR

At the player stats on nfl.com, if I sorted the LB stats for the AFC correctly, he was 14th (in the AFC only) with 112 total tackles (solo, assist, and sacks all combined) and then Polk was 22nd in the AFC.

Greenwood was perhaps our best LB last season, which is sad. And even sadder is that Polk was the NEXT best (statistically speaking) but still several slots down from Greenwood's spot at 14. And that's just in the AFC, that's not even combining AFC and NFC together. Talk about having a pretty average LB crew. Ouch.

And for all the UT homers who still have a huge man crush on Derrick Johnson, he's one notch above Polk at 21st on the AFC LB list. Not exactly the Pro Bowl caliber LB that we always hear about from the man crushers. "Oh why, oh why did we pass up Derrick Johnson?!"

link: http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/...14&_3:col_2=15
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Old 05-22-2006   #2
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is that ranking for all the stats though? Cause I mean... I dont remember Greenwood getting alot of tackles for a loss.. or sacks.. or anything of that nature. Getting tackles is great.. but if every tackle you get is 3-5 yards past the line of scrimmage, that isnt gonna stop an offense.

I think Greenwood is a great athlete, but an average LB. Id prefer him to be depth for us..and id prefer us to start a more aggressive LB in his place.
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Old 05-22-2006   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
At the player stats on nfl.com, if I sorted the LB stats for the AFC correctly, he was 14th (in the AFC only) with 112 total tackles (solo, assist, and sacks all combined) and then Polk was 22nd in the AFC.

Greenwood was perhaps our best LB last season, which is sad. And even sadder is that Polk was the NEXT best (statistically speaking) but still several slots down from Greenwood's spot at 14. And that's just in the AFC, that's not even combining AFC and NFC together. Talk about having a pretty average LB crew. Ouch.

And for all the UT homers who still have a huge man crush on Derrick Johnson, he's one notch above Polk at 21st on the AFC LB list. Not exactly the Pro Bowl caliber LB that we always hear about from the man crushers. "Oh why, oh why did we pass up Derrick Johnson?!"

link: http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/...14&_3:col_2=15
I have no man crush, but Derrick Johnson also played OLB in a 4-3 which is a bit different than a guy playing ILB in a 3-4. In the 3-4 Polk and Greenwood should have more tackles than any type of OLB. You can not compare them on the same level. If anything you can compare only the MLB to ILB.
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Old 05-22-2006   #4
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Greenwood was a lock to be our leading tackler. His position demanded it. 3-4 ILBs fly up the tackle charts. They're supposed to make the stops.

On any given run play there's going to be a tackle, a fumble, a run out-of-bounds or a TD. Tackles aren't terribly telling, its how far upfield they are. Our defense was so pitiful precisely because Greenwood made all those stops ... upfield instead of near the line of scrimmage.
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Old 05-22-2006   #5
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I'm not giving up on greenwood just yet I mean give the guy a chance. He was a small 4-3 OLB playing INSIDE on 3-4 Defense. He was put completly out of his natural element.. not saying that he shouldnt have adapted better but I'm just saying give him a shot lets put him back at his natural position and see what happens then we can have the trade/cut Greenwood conversation..
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Old 05-22-2006   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
And for all the UT homers who still have a huge man crush on Derrick Johnson, he's one notch above Polk at 21st on the AFC LB list. Not exactly the Pro Bowl caliber LB that we always hear about from the man crushers. "Oh why, oh why did we pass up Derrick Johnson?!"
Not long ago someone told me that they'd love to see the term "man crush" go away and that it was long past getting old. I agreed but kept using it because I thought now it's gotten so overused that it's crossed back over into funny (for a completely different reason).

Now I understand what that person was saying though. I'm getting so sick of reading the term "UT homer". I don't even like UT and I had no interest in seeing the Texans draft Vince Young BUT I was absolutely positive that Derrick Johnson was the pick to make when he fell to us at 13 and I still believe that. Now that we're in a 4-3 Derrick Johnson's absence here is even more glaring.

A couple of people on this thread have already posted solid reasons why your stats as they relate to a direct comparison of Johnson, Greenwood, and Polk aren't very meaningful. I see no reason to go over them again.

Suffice to say that when you compare a rookie linebacker to a veteran playing a different position you learn nothing about either one.
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Old 05-22-2006   #7
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I use the stats provided.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/...S/2005/regular Then click in the column labeled CMB for total tackles.

There is zero way to compare "where" the tackles are made, etc. It's a nice thought, but it's kind of like inventing a machine that gives you unlimited home electricity for a couple of pennies a day: It doesn't exist.

Stats show that Johnson is not better than he's perceived to be. Period. What's even scarier is that Merriman, minus his sacks, is a pretty statistically weak player when you look at his tackle stats. He's heralded, and yet his teammate Donnie Edwards is up at the top of the list on total tackles. Hype has its power, I guess.

In my opinion, Derrick Johnson would have fared no better on this team than Greenwood or Polk. And to speculate that he would, and to argue it so fiercely, is ignoring the stats made available--And we have little to go on, when comparing, than the stats provided. Look at the other 13 LBs above Greenwood on that list and you will see LBs who are pretty much viewed as top-tier LBs in the AFC. So, I think the stats for total tackles is a pretty good indication of significance.

My thread is a two-parter: Greenwood was statisticaly the best LB on our team, and I added that looking at Derrick Johnson's stats doesn't exactly help some people's argument that we "passed" on a great LB. So shoot me for not coming up with a magical equation to show us all the "real" value of these LBs. Help me find it.
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Old 05-22-2006   #8
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I guess what bothers me most about Greenwood is that in his 5 seasons as a starting NFL LB, he hasn't forced a turnover once. Not one interception, not one forced fumble. In 410 total career tackles, he hasn't stripped a ball carrier a single time? That's difficult to explain.
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Old 05-22-2006   #9
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Old 05-22-2006   #10
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I'm not hyping Greenwood, nor am I on some mission to say that he's awesome. Perhaps that's getting lost on some people.

In another thread, some people are speculating that he's going to be a June 1st cut. I can't foresee us doing it because of the stats. Demeco, like all other rookies, is just that: A rookie. He might do well. He might fare as well (or as average) as Derrick Johnson, too. And he might not do very well at all.

Greenwood's not great, but at the moment...and going off what was done by our other LBs last season...he's the best we have. We can talk potential all we want, but cutting him (with the LBs we have) doesn't seem viable to me.
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Old 05-22-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
...We can talk potential all we want, but cutting him (with the LBs we have) doesn't seem viable to me.
It's not viable. There's still $5.6 million of bonus left on his contract. The Texans can't take that kind of cap hit, even if most of it is pushed off to '07.

I'm not saying Greenwood is a horrible player. I'd just like to see him create some turnovers. Or one even.
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Old 05-22-2006   #12
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Jay Foreman was 12th in the NFL in tackles in 2003. That should put the relevance of that stat in perspective.

ILBs in the Capers/Fangio 3-4 were tackle hoarders by design.
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Old 05-22-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnatikid
I have no man crush, but Derrick Johnson also played OLB in a 4-3 which is a bit different than a guy playing ILB in a 3-4. In the 3-4 Polk and Greenwood should have more tackles than any type of OLB. You can not compare them on the same level. If anything you can compare only the MLB to ILB.
Dont want to upset anyone but if we had Kubiak that year and we had our 4-3 in place we take Derrick Johnson, I think.
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Old 05-22-2006   #14
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i just love hearing sports fans talk about footbal management. cant take the cap hit? how do you know what cap hit they can take? lol, anyway, as far as i know, greenwood still performed up to his starting positon, you cant blame one guy on an 11 man defense over the course of a season. obviously they had other problems besides greenwoods takles for loss. better question to ask is how many tackles for loss did our defensive ends get? how many did seth payne get? now we are running a 4-3 lets see what happens.
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Old 05-22-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk75
Dont want to upset anyone but if we had Kubiak that year and we had our 4-3 in place we take Derrick Johnson, I think.
Derrick Johnson had a decent year, and your right Kubiak probably would have taken him in the first round last year, but would anyone trade Travis Johnson and Eric Winston for Derrick Johnson. Kudos to Casserly, this move actually paid off.

After the cowboys got the guy we really wanted (Ware), the smart move was to tradedown if you aren't in love with any of the guys on the board.
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Old 05-22-2006   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK_Gamer
i just love hearing sports fans talk about footbal management. cant take the cap hit? how do you know what cap hit they can take? lol, .
Just because you may not understand caponomics doesn't mean others don't.

Last edited by aj.; 05-22-2006 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 05-22-2006   #17
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ok so whats the texans cap hit this year? and whats the cap? and what does that have to do with a decision you have no control over? and how do any of us know what the texans can or cant afford? are you qualified to make those decisions? good grief get a life
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Old 05-22-2006   #18
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http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap.html

It's unofficial but very close.

Like I said, some guys watch this stuff very closely and they know what they are doing. Stick around, you might learn something.

I have a great life, thank you, and the NFL is part of it.
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Old 05-22-2006   #19
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ok im gonna make this my last post on the subject, aj yer missing my point altogether. anyone can look up the numbers on the internet. im just saying management makes these decisions, many of them that all go together, those decisions you CANT look up on the web till they allready made them, so talking about cap issues when you dont have all the data is pointless, all im saying
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Old 05-22-2006   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk75
Dont want to upset anyone but if we had Kubiak that year and we had our 4-3 in place we take Derrick Johnson, I think.
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