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Old 05-02-2006   #1
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Default I'm sorry, but our DL was fine.

I got a lot of bashing for my post on this thread: http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zon...ad.php?t=22754

I was going to reply there, and if a mod wants, this can be moved, but the topic sort of changed into why we didn't need another DL, and so I wanted to go ahead and start this topic. So here we go:

Let me just please say that our DL was fine, and didn't need a 54 million dollar project added to it. Heres why:
A) On our strong side we just signed Weaver, a proven run stopper who got 13 million dollars guaranteed. Thats a lot of money.
B) In the middle we have Payne (dominating force with a huge contract), Smith (see Payne), and Johnson (High 1st round pick, 1st DT taken)
C) On the week side we have both Babin and Peek. Yes, neither have played a down at DE in their respective NFL careers, but neither has Mario Williams. The fact of the matter is that Babin could turn out to be an incredible DE. Look at his college numbers:
2002 - Babin totaled 15 sacks and 26 tackles-for-a-loss last season. Defensive Anchor
2003 - racked up career-high 115 tackles and matched career high with 15 sacks for 71 yards. made 33 stops behind the line of scrimmage

So maybe Williams will turn out to be an incredible DE, but I simply don't buy the "football decision" that we really needed him. In fact, we have the potential to already have a fantastic DL. If anything, we shoul have traded the 1st pick and gotten OL and DBs and LBs.

Our front office refused to pick Bush because they were worried about money and image issues. Instead, they claim we made a football decision and went with Williams. Too bad we already had the potential for an amazing DL and just wasted 54 million on it
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Old 05-02-2006   #2
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Originally Posted by gtexan02
Our front office refused to pick Bush because they were worried about money and image issues. Instead, they claim we made a football decision and went with Williams.
So, just to be clear, you're calling Coach Kubiak a liar?

Our offensive line may have been fine...but now it's better than fine....finer, if you will.

A lot of folks said our running back situation was fine, too, and that we didn't really need Reggie Bush. Obviously, the Texans FO agrees with this perspective.
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Old 05-02-2006   #3
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I'm not really calling Kubiak a liar, more like Casserly. And it wasn't a lie so much as an overanalysis. I think Casserly actually convinced himself that our number 1 need was a push rushing specialist DE, even though Williams has similar "potential" to Babin in my opinion.

Basically, I think Casserly convinced himself that A) Bush wasn't durable enough and B) Bush wasn't an every down impact, because of signability and character concerns (the whole house scandal). So what he's doing now is defending his stance, which he believes, but for the wrong reasons. Sorry that didn't make more sense?
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Old 05-02-2006   #4
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Originally Posted by gtexan02
Our front office refused to pick Bush because they were worried about money and image issues. Instead, they claim we made a football decision and went with Williams. Too bad we already had the potential for an amazing DL and just wasted 54 million on it
First of all, I don't think you were getting bashed......... some where just saying a DT is not a DE.

Secondly Mario & Reggie agreed to the same $54 million....... the Garunteed might have been a little different, but for Reggie to think he's going to get more than $24 mill is just silly......... if that was the problem. He's already gauranteed more than AlexSmith was last year(Mario is)...... How much more did he need?? If he was serious about $30 mill, it was in hopes that we would trade the pick to NY or something........ and that wasn't happening.

Third...... why is it so hard to believe Kubiak doesn't value a runningback as much as fans do..... once a RB in Denver signs a long term deal, once he gets paid anywhere near $5 mil/yr, he is put on the fastest train leaving Denver..... That's why Kubiak is working sooooo hard to replace DD. He won't get rid of him, until he knows he has a replacement..... see Tatum Bell.....

There ain't nothing wrong with wanting to have a clean image. If there aren't enough kids coming out of college, to put together a 52 man roster squeaky clean roster, then we all worry about football too much.
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Old 05-02-2006   #5
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I would love RB, but if we didn't get RB, I still don't think Williams was the best choice. I would rather have Ferguson here than Williams. My main point was that our DL was already looking great (and expensive!), and I think we had more pressing needs elsewhere
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Old 05-02-2006   #6
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Originally Posted by gtexan02
I would love RB, but if we didn't get RB, I still don't think Williams was the best choice. I would rather have Ferguson here than Williams. My main point was that our DL was already looking great (and expensive!), and I think we had more pressing needs elsewhere

Ferguson was the only other player that many thought could have been the #1 overall....

He flat out didn't fit what we are going to be doing. On a normal pass blocking team yeah, but he's the wrong kinda guy for Denver.

We were stuck with that #1...... I truly believe we would've traded down if at all possible. Fair value in mind.
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Old 05-02-2006   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtexan02
I'm not really calling Kubiak a liar, more like Casserly. And it wasn't a lie so much as an overanalysis. I think Casserly actually convinced himself that our number 1 need was a push rushing specialist DE, even though Williams has similar "potential" to Babin in my opinion.

Basically, I think Casserly convinced himself that A) Bush wasn't durable enough and B) Bush wasn't an every down impact, because of signability and character concerns (the whole house scandal). So what he's doing now is defending his stance, which he believes, but for the wrong reasons. Sorry that didn't make more sense?
So, then you're calling this article a lie?

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Old 05-02-2006   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtexan02
I'm not really calling Kubiak a liar, more like Casserly. And it wasn't a lie so much as an overanalysis. I think Casserly actually convinced himself that our number 1 need was a push rushing specialist DE, even though Williams has similar "potential" to Babin in my opinion.

Basically, I think Casserly convinced himself that A) Bush wasn't durable enough and B) Bush wasn't an every down impact, because of signability and character concerns (the whole house scandal). So what he's doing now is defending his stance, which he believes, but for the wrong reasons. Sorry that didn't make more sense?

Kubiak says that he also came to the same conclusion (picking Williams). How can you blame Casserly but not Kubiak? I know that the conventional wisdom is that CC is on his way out, so he's a convenient target. But please explain how CC merits your wrath without any for Kubiak. I for one am perfectly happy with the pick ....
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Old 05-02-2006   #9
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Default Some thoughts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtexan02
Our front office refused to pick Bush because they were worried about money and image issues. Instead, they claim we made a football decision and went with Williams. Too bad we already had the potential for an amazing DL and just wasted 54 million on it

1. FWIW, according to Casserly (radio interview), moving to the 4-3 we needed more lineman and lineman suited to the scheme. Before he thought we didn't have enough, now he thinks we are fine.

2. Ryan Fitzpatrick

3. Casserly and McNair said it had nothing to do with money. That they were close enough to the money numbers with both players--and thought they could have signed both. You can keep saying it was about the money, but that seems inconsistent with just about every Texans move to date. I am pretty certain it wasn't about the money.

4. It is obvious by his public statements that Bush wasn't terribly enthusiastic about coming to Houston.

5. Ryan Fitzpatrick

6. The draft says a lot about the coach. It is obvious he is looking for smart players, who are very team and football focused. You can tell by who we picked (Ryans) and who we passed on (Simpson, Winston Justice) and what he has specifically said about our draft and about our team.

So many of Reggie Bush's statements and actions are so against team oriented football it is beyond belief. He was more interested in being the #1 pick than selling himself to the Texans. His actions related to the house situation, if even 1/10th of that is true, sure don't look like he cared at all about his teammates at USC, because he knew he eventually was gonna get paid. You can't just talk about being team focused, it has to show in your actions--I find it absolutely ironic that he found out he was not going to be chosen #1 during party where he was gonna be on the cover of the NCAA football game.

It is completely possible to be an exceptionally talented person without exhibiting lots of behaviors that demonstrate that you are a "me first" kinda person. Maybe he is a team oriented guy, but he certainly has had a strange way of showing it.

If Reggie were a smart guy, and a team oriented guy, he would have done everything in his power to sell himself to the Texans. He would have shouted from the mountaintops how much he wanted to play here. But he didn't have to because he was a part of Team Adidas/Subway/Etc.

Being a good teammate and being team focused is a football issue. Not just an image issue.

7. Ryan Fitzpatrick.

8. Oh, and some whining Peyton Manning for good measure.
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Old 05-02-2006   #10
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Lets put this in simple terms ... In NO WAY was the D-Line "Fine" prior to the draft ! Anyone who expects Babin and Peek to be anything more than Situational players is dreaming . I like them both better as LB's than DE's ...

This D-line is going to make the whole defense look better by leaps and bounds .... The LB's will be free to make some play's and the DB's wont be in coverage for two years (What it feels like when watching) on every pass play . Opposing QB's will make more mistakes because of better pressure which leads to more turn-overs and less completions and less time on the field for the defense ....

Add to that pass rush the fact that they SHOULD be much improved against the rush w/ the additions of Weaver and Williams ...I could easily see a top 10 defense by mid season .
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Old 05-02-2006   #11
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Originally Posted by gtexan02
. I think Casserly actually convinced himself that our number 1 need was a push rushing specialist DE, even though Williams has similar "potential" to Babin in my opinion.
Have you ever seen Babin?

I like Babin better than many, but physically Babin and Williams are so different they could be different species from each other.

Just sayin.
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Old 05-02-2006   #12
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Yes Babin and Williams are different sizes, but they have the same strength. Babin was a beast in college (30 sacks in 2 years?) and much more consistent than Williams. Williams presents huge upside in his measureables, but at the moment, THATS ALL THEY ARE!!! I don't get why CONSISTENCY constantly gets thrown out the door for POTENTIAL. Bush was a stud for YEARS, while Williams was a stud for WEEKS. Babin was more consistent than Williams, why will no one give him a chance?
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Old 05-02-2006   #13
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PS: Just because everyone claims "it wasn't money" or "it wasn't character" or "it was a football decision" doesn't mean I buy into it. These guys are backed into a corner right now and are in 100% damage control mode. People have been calling and cancelling their season tickets, and they'll do anything to validate their choice. They believe its the best choice for whatever reason, but they want the fans to believe its the best choice for football reasons, whether it is or isnt
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Old 05-02-2006   #14
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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick
Have you ever seen Babin?

I like Babin better than many, but physically Babin and Williams are so different they could be different species from each other.

Just sayin.
Last year's sack leader, Burgess from the Raiders, is 6-2 260, which is EXACTLY the same build as Babin. So whats your poitn?
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Old 05-02-2006   #15
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People have been calling and cancelling their season tickets, and they'll do anything to validate their choice.
It is actually not that bad. I am trying to get some even better tickets than what I have and so far, nobody is dumping them.

I've been told by ticketing people that the ticket sales are fairly strong. Better than what they thought they would have after last season.

I think some of the desire of the fan base to get Bush was that our offense was so blasted boring and inept looking for so long that we would like to see something that resembles NFL football. Reggie or no, that is gonna happen.
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Old 05-02-2006   #16
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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick
It is actually not that bad. I am trying to get some even better tickets than what I have and so far, nobody is dumping them.

I've been told by ticketing people that the ticket sales are fairly strong. Better than what they thought they would have after last season.

I think some of the desire of the fan base to get Bush was that our offense was so blasted boring and inept looking for so long that we would like to see something that resembles NFL football. Reggie or no, that is gonna happen.
I was just quoting that article posted earlier from Sporting News. It said there were loads of calls from texans fans cancelling their tickets. Could be wrong
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Old 05-02-2006   #17
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I have a feeling Payne might be cut, that is ALOT of money on the D-line.
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Old 05-02-2006   #18
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I have a feeling Payne might be cut, that is ALOT of money on the D-line.
Its not like his bonus will disapear, and cutting two expensive DLs (Walker and Payne) will leave us with 10s of milliions in dead cap space. Why did we need to do this when Payne was still serviceable? Williams forces us to cut him now
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Old 05-02-2006   #19
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I was just quoting that article posted earlier from Sporting News. It said there were loads of calls from texans fans cancelling their tickets. Could be wrong

It just said some fans called to cancel season tickets.
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Old 05-02-2006   #20
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I was going to reply there, and if a mod wants, this can be moved, but the topic sort of changed into why we didn't need another DL, and so I wanted to go ahead and start this topic.
I think you could make a lot better argument in regards to Bush over Williams than by saying that the DL doesn't need any help. I think everybody understands that the Texans DL needed plenty of help -- and I think you know enough about football where you realize that as well. Weaver cannot rush the passer, neither can Cowart, and the rest of the Texans DL did a real poor job at that last year as well. The stats you quote do not indicate last year's performance and the weakness in pressuring the passer is very evident as it resulted in absolutely zero turnovers (and zero wins as well -- see the correlation?) for the first several games of the season. This team desperately needs more pressure on the passer which would result in more turnovers, better field position, more scoring and more wins. I believe you understand that but I also believe you are trying to simply find any reason to justify your stance on Bush. Just sit back and relax -- it really was a good, smart football decision. Really, it was a no-brainer.
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