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Old 05-05-2004   #1
Mistril48
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Default Defensive match-up question

Assuming that the defense is in a standard formation (4-3, or 3-4) and Andre Johnson (excellent receiver and blocker) is lined up on the same side as the tight end.

I assume that in man coverage, they generally cover Johnson with the corner and the tight end with an outside linebacker and have a safety over top.

What happens if they invert Johnson and the tight end?

If they leave the corner split out on the tight end, split wide, Johnson would kill them running paterns from the slot against an outside linebacker and a safety.

If they put the outside linebacker out wide on the tight end, split out wide, it would create an excellent running opportunity, plus the tight end would kill the linebacker in coverage with that much open space.

If they try to put the safety on the tight end, split out wide, they would have effectively dictated single coverage for Johnson, going deep post.

Any ideas? On television broadcasts it's difficult to see full formations and shifts.
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Old 05-05-2004   #2
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What you forget is that the TE may be bigger then the CB, but they are not faster. The Texans did that once last year with Miller out as a WR and Rolle was covering him, I dont know where AJ was though. Plus as strong as AJ is, he will have problems getting out of the jams of LBs. You'll probably see something similar to that, but I would not want AJ to take a nasty hit or something from the LB.
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Old 05-05-2004   #3
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they'd leave the cb on the tightend outside. on aj they'd have a lb wrap him up at the line & a safety would step up and cover him deep with the lb man or zone underneath. most often tho they'd drop into a cover two zone and keep the safeties tighter towards the middle and shifted away from the tightend leaving the cb to cover him alone.

my madden guess.
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Old 05-05-2004   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter
they'd leave the cb on the tightend outside. on aj they'd have a lb wrap him up at the line & a safety would step up and cover him deep with the lb man or zone underneath. most often tho they'd drop into a cover two zone and keep the safeties tighter towards the middle and shifted away from the tightend leaving the cb to cover him alone.

my madden guess.
If they tried to have the linebacker press him, couldn't they just spread him a few yards further out from the tackle to open up running lanes? Also, if you try to cover him with a safety (tighter towards the middle) doesn't that open up the deep corner, over top of the safety (just have the tight end stay on the line of scrimmage to hold the corner).
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Old 05-05-2004   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistril48
If they tried to have the linebacker press him, couldn't they just spread him a few yards further out from the tackle to open up running lanes? Also, if you try to cover him with a safety (tighter towards the middle) doesn't that open up the deep corner, over top of the safety (just have the tight end stay on the line of scrimmage to hold the corner).
Like Scooter said, they would go into cover 2 to prevent all that. Cover 2 is designed to give up the little dump off passes and protect against the big plays. And if they do go into C2 the running lanes wouldnt be open as much as you think (unless it is the colts d-line.) In C2, the defenders are not liable for the man as much as they are the area they have to defend.
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Last edited by Fiddy; 05-05-2004 at 10:13 PM. Reason: forgot running analysis
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Old 05-05-2004   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddy
Like Scooter said, they would go into cover 2 to prevent all that. Cover 2 is designed to give up the little dump off passes and protect against the big plays. And if they do go into C2 the running lanes wouldnt be open as much as you think (unless it is the colts d-line.) In C2, the defenders are not liable for the man as much as they are the area they have to defend.
I don't see how cover two helps.

I thought the essence of cover two was that the corners were to press the wideouts to knock them off their timing routes and the safeties cleaned up everything over top.

In the scenario I suggested, they can't get a body on Johnson. If the corner is further outside on the tight end and the linebacker is either trying to keep contact with the defensive line, or not quick enough to press Johnson, then Johnson gets a free release and I can't imagine relying on a safety to cover Johnson, one on one, or even tackle him, one on one.

If the defense simply audibles into a zone, it still seems like the offense gets to dictate to the defense.

Any more thoughts. I think Johnson presents a unique make-up opportunity.
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Old 05-05-2004   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistril48
If they tried to have the linebacker press him, couldn't they just spread him a few yards further out from the tackle to open up running lanes? Also, if you try to cover him with a safety (tighter towards the middle) doesn't that open up the deep corner, over top of the safety (just have the tight end stay on the line of scrimmage to hold the corner).
if they simply "spread him a few yards further out", the defense would play it as coached in a basic 3 receiver set and probably put a little more focus on the slot in that situation. from the slot, aj probably wouldnt be going deep to the sideline but for the sake of discussion ... if the te stopped short, the cb would give him cussion and be deeper wide while the safety again followed deep leaving a cb & safety flanking aj. most likely again would be zone coverage or if this became frequent, teams would be prepared for nickel coverage.

probably wrong ... just what i'd assume would happen.
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Old 05-05-2004   #8
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well the thing to remember here is that there are defensive audibles you just don't see them being made because tv and everyone else is focused on the QB...if that were to happen on an obvious passing down...they would switch to a zone defense so it wouldn't matter...if they kept it in man...more than likely they would have the safety coving the deep route and the LB covering the short route...it's not that hard to change or to defend...either way johnson would be covered...when you see the big plays it's mainly due to bad communication between defenders not mis-matches although those do happen as well
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Old 05-06-2004   #9
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to broaden the subject, I've been surprised by the lack of motion in our offense and hope to see more of it. Putting a man in motion not only forces the defense to adjust, but it can reveal a bit about their coverages and intentions (ie. zone v. man, blitz v. not.) Given that Carr has shown just decent recogntion (so far) I think it could benefit his reads the most.
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Old 05-07-2004   #10
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Default Invert!

No team in the league would allow a linebacker to line up on a fast receiver such as Johnson. The linebacker most likely would move outside, placing the corner on the inside to cover Johnson. Once this happens, the Safety would then move into the box to help against a possible run play or double the inside receiver. If a team takes the chance of getting beat on a post pattern, it's with a slower tight end. This is what makes teams such as Baltimore, NY, and KC so effective. Their TE's are so quick and fast downfield, they leave a difficult matchup for any defense. The Texans on the other hand have Miller, but he is a step slower than the elite TE's! Hard hitting Safeties like Roy Williams and Sean Taylor help alot in these situation! Can cover and hit like a hammer!
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Old 05-07-2004   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clandestin
to broaden the subject, I've been surprised by the lack of motion in our offense and hope to see more of it.
If you look back at game film you will see we used motion for Banks and didn't for Carr. Another reason I feel we scaled back the offense when he was in the game.
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Old 05-07-2004   #12
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There really shouldn't be any holding back of opening the play book up now. I don't believe the 3rd season is the "break out" season for a QB but it sure shows people what he is made up of. It will also show us how much confidence the staff has in our QB. Carr has the arm, does he have the head and the eye? That is what we will see this year. At any rate, there should be different mis matches we can get by sending men in motion, and stretching the field.
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Old 05-07-2004   #13
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I was also thinking that receivers like Jabar Gaffney should benefit from the new DB rule about the illegal hands. Any thoughts on that?
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Old 05-07-2004   #14
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I've been ranting about this no motion thing as far back as our first year. Do you really think it's a confidence issue? It's been 2 years now and I've seen Carr call off plays and make adjustments, but I've seen no motioning. I don't get that.
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Old 05-07-2004   #15
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Year 1 delay of game was something bitting us and the second year we tried to fix it there will be more of it this year
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Old 05-08-2004   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geka
Year 1 delay of game was something bitting us and the second year we tried to fix it there will be more of it this year
I would have to wonder if the delay was a function of CP more than Carr.
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