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Old 04-13-2006   #1
phan1
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Default Cornerback-a risky pick?

Well, it seems like next to QB, CB is the next hardest position to scout and evaluate on their success in the NFL. I believe if you look at the top CBs in the league, they were picked all over the place. We've got some great 1st rounders like DRob and Deangelo Hall. But then we've got some low round surprises like the up-and-coming Ricky Manning Jr. and Nathan Vasher. And then we've got the guy from the Cowboys out of Kansas St. (forgot his name) who has not lived up to his billing. The Chargers took 3 CBs in the 1st round. All of them suck! How the heck did that happen?!?

Anyway, I think CB is the next hardest position to scout and I'm very weary if we go that route in the 2nd round. I'd much rather have a good Olineman that we have a solid read on and is a need position than a CB. It looks like this is a really deep draft for CBs, and I can almost guarantee that they're going to be some big busts at this position. It does seem like the more successful CBs picked in the higher rounds have been guys who are PHYSICAL. Guys like DRob and Deangelo Hall are really physical CBs who can really get after it, unlike players like PBuc. Quality finesse CBs like Deion Sanders are much fewer and far-between.
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Old 04-14-2006   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phan1
Well, it seems like next to QB, CB is the next hardest position to scout and evaluate on their success in the NFL. I believe if you look at the top CBs in the league, they were picked all over the place. We've got some great 1st rounders like DRob and Deangelo Hall. But then we've got some low round surprises like the up-and-coming Ricky Manning Jr. and Nathan Vasher. And then we've got the guy from the Cowboys out of Kansas St. (forgot his name) who has not lived up to his billing. The Chargers took 3 CBs in the 1st round. All of them suck! How the heck did that happen?!?

Anyway, I think CB is the next hardest position to scout and I'm very weary if we go that route in the 2nd round. I'd much rather have a good Olineman that we have a solid read on and is a need position than a CB. It looks like this is a really deep draft for CBs, and I can almost guarantee that they're going to be some big busts at this position. It does seem like the more successful CBs picked in the higher rounds have been guys who are PHYSICAL. Guys like DRob and Deangelo Hall are really physical CBs who can really get after it, unlike players like PBuc. Quality finesse CBs like Deion Sanders are much fewer and far-between.

Physical CB's this year that you might like:

Johnathan Josepsh (A bigger, faster, stronger, more aggressive D-Rob.)
Antoino Croamite (Great in run support and using his hands against the pass)
Allen Zem...(CB from Penn St. who is VERY physical. 2nd day pick though)


I'll contine this list later, its time to go to SHIPLEY'S!!
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Old 04-14-2006   #3
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Originally Posted by phan1
And then we've got the guy from the Cowboys out of Kansas St. (forgot his name) who has not lived up to his billing.
are you kidding me? terrence newman is a top 10 cornerback right now. the BEST young CB in the game. he was AMAZING last year.
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Old 04-14-2006   #4
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Originally Posted by phan1
Well, it seems like next to QB, CB is the next hardest position to scout and evaluate on their success in the NFL. I believe if you look at the top CBs in the league, they were picked all over the place. We've got some great 1st rounders like DRob and Deangelo Hall. But then we've got some low round surprises like the up-and-coming Ricky Manning Jr. and Nathan Vasher. And then we've got the guy from the Cowboys out of Kansas St. (forgot his name) who has not lived up to his billing. The Chargers took 3 CBs in the 1st round. All of them suck! How the heck did that happen?!?

Anyway, I think CB is the next hardest position to scout and I'm very weary if we go that route in the 2nd round. I'd much rather have a good Olineman that we have a solid read on and is a need position than a CB. It looks like this is a really deep draft for CBs, and I can almost guarantee that they're going to be some big busts at this position. It does seem like the more successful CBs picked in the higher rounds have been guys who are PHYSICAL. Guys like DRob and Deangelo Hall are really physical CBs who can really get after it, unlike players like PBuc. Quality finesse CBs like Deion Sanders are much fewer and far-between.
You are right. It is a tough thing finding a CB sometimes. The Denver Broncos looked for years trying to find/draft/salvage CBs in order to get a reliable one. It just never happened...

Ray Crockett - Average, but never great...
Darrien Gordon - as a corner was absurdly inconsistent... but rocked at punt returns (FA signing)
Randy Hilliard - bust
Tory James - didn't come on until after he left the Broncos
Dale Carter - the Broncos were just desperate at that point (FA signing)
Willie Middlebrooks - was reached for in the 1st round after the two actually good corners were taken... bust
Deltha O'Neal - the first one to show any promise, went to the Pro Bowl then got too cocky and uncoachable... started playing well again after leaving Denver
Kelly Herndon - you can't expect too much from an UDFA
Lenny Walls - you can expect even less from a lanky, less talented UDFA

Eventually the Broncos decided "enough was enough" and they acquired one of the top 5 (and probably the best) CB in the NFL in Champ Bailey. All of a sudden it was like the light went on and the Broncos drafted 3 outstanding corners last year; Darrent Williams, Dominique Foxworth, and Karl Paymah. Although many analysts berated them for those picks, Williams and Foxworth played so well that they basically pushed 2 year started Lenny Walls out of Denver, and Paymah has been raved about time and again as the best physically of the three. He just needs to learn zone coverage (which he never did in college).

Here's a good video of them...

That being said, it is hard to project what good DB prospects will be waiting at #33, but I'm quite positive there will be some good ones. There are simply too many names with a 15-30 grade on them for none to slip through: Jason Allen, Antonio Cromartie, Tye Hill, Jonathan Joseph, Jimmy Williams, Donte Whitner, etc. That is quite a large list, and there are some prospects who could be reached for at our pick as well (like Richard Marshall or Kelley Jennings).

While there has been good, and even great corners taken in the later rounds the best ones always pop up early on. I would love taking a guy like Hill (just an example, not singling him out) to place opposite D-Rob. How about a guy like Whitner who plays safety like a Brian Dawkins and has the speed to cover man-on-man? Yes, our three needs left unfilled for this draft are OT, CB, and S. As long as we pick BPA for those 3 needs I'm happy.

EDIT: DeAngelo Hall is not a great physical corner. Has tackling has been notably poor, and he plays almost exclusively with quickness.
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Old 04-14-2006   #5
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Originally Posted by Apoch
That being said, it is hard to project what good DB prospects will be waiting at #33, but I'm quite positive there will be some good ones. There are simply too many names with a 15-30 grade on them for none to slip through: Jason Allen, Antonio Cromartie, Tye Hill, Jonathan Joseph, Jimmy Williams, Donte Whitner, etc. That is quite a large list, and there are some prospects who could be reached for at our pick as well (like Richard Marshall or Kelley Jennings).

EDIT: DeAngelo Hall is not a great physical corner. Has tackling has been notably poor, and he plays almost exclusively with quickness.
allen, williams and whitner will probably all be safeties in the NFL. and deangelo hall is definitely overrated.
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Old 04-14-2006   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phan1
Well, it seems like next to QB, CB is the next hardest position to scout and evaluate on their success in the NFL. I believe if you look at the top CBs in the league, they were picked all over the place. We've got some great 1st rounders like DRob and Deangelo Hall.
D'angelo Hall.......... D'angelo Hall............ is that the guy who single handedly shut T.O. out?? Only allowing 112yards on 7 catches??
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Originally Posted by phan1
And then we've got the guy from the Cowboys out of Kansas St. (forgot his name) who has not lived up to his billing.
Yeah, that clown let Terrell catch the ball 5 times, and he racked up 50 yards on him.
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Originally Posted by phan1
The Chargers took 3 CBs in the 1st round. All of them suck! How the heck did that happen?!?
talk about your busts..... altogether, Terrell(the best reciever in the league) had 7 receptions, 53 yards against these busts........


Quote:
Originally Posted by phan1
Anyway, I think CB is the next hardest position to scout and I'm very weary if we go that route in the 2nd round. I'd much rather have a good Olineman that we have a solid read on and is a need position than a CB. It looks like this is a really deep draft for CBs, and I can almost guarantee that they're going to be some big busts at this position. It does seem like the more successful CBs picked in the higher rounds have been guys who are PHYSICAL. Guys like DRob and Deangelo Hall are really physical CBs who can really get after it, unlike players like PBuc. Quality finesse CBs like Deion Sanders are much fewer and far-between.
CB just like the other positions depend on the teams, schemes, and level of competition. Guys like Dione, and Newman however, you can leave them out there on an Island, isolated to one guy. Chances are, that one guy is going to have a bad day. Guys like Buchanon, are better with help.. they need a safety......... they need the sideline to be on the outside over theiir left shoulder........... sometimes they need it over their right. They need to know the LB has the underneath coverage, or that a safety has the coverage over the top. Using their help is a big part of their game, forcing the reciever to the sideline, keeping the reciever pressed against the LB underneath coverage.... if the safety/LB are not doing their jobs, as expected, our corner may look like a bust......... especially if his game was built on "make up speed" and "great anticipation", meaning he was reading the QB....... if he has a bigger role in run support, where he is no longer looking at the WR, then the QB, then the WR, he's done lost half his game, looking at the RB, the WR, RB.....
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Old 04-14-2006   #7
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talk about your busts..... altogether, Terrell(the best reciever in the league) had 7 receptions, 53 yards against these busts........
so? they're still bad.
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Old 04-14-2006   #8
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Any CB/DB is only as good as the pass rush allows him to be, which is why I'm glad the noise to sign those Steeler free agent DBs died down. I don't think anyone thinks DeShea Townsend is a better talent than DeAngelo Hall, but he knocked down more passes last year. DeAngelo is like DRob in that he will get beat, but he'll make you a game changing play the next time out. That's supposed to be PBucs MO, but he lost the latter part.

And I don't see how T Newman can be a top 10 CB when he was basically benched last season and played in the nickel slot. He played much better there, but he was behind Gleen and Henry on his own team...
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Old 04-14-2006   #9
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And I don't see how T Newman can be a top 10 CB when he was basically benched last season and played in the nickel slot. He played much better there, but he was behind Gleen and Henry on his own team...
Newman may not be top 10, but he did not play behind Glenn and Henry. Newman started all 16 games last year for the Cowboys. Sliding him into the NB position in that formation is not a reflection of a demotion but where Parcells thought he would perform best just as Dunta played NB in that formation his rookie year.
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Old 04-14-2006   #10
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newman was never benched last year. they rotated he, glenn and henry in and out of the different slots all the time (FSU does the same thing, which is why i laugh when people say antonio cromartie only started 1 game in his career). he was awesome last year, and for some reason no one really noticed. i guess it was only the 3 interceptions. no one threw his way, and when they did, nothing happened. only 1 pass of over 30 yards allowed, an NO touchdowns. sounds damn good to me.
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Old 04-14-2006   #11
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Well, somehow the Dallas Cowboys managed to start 3 CBs 12+ games. Anthony Henry was the only one who got hurt and only started 12 games. All I can remember on Cowboy talk TV/radio (I'm living in Dallas) is how Newman was playing behind Glenn and Henry and playing much better covering the slot. If there was no slot receiver, I don't remember him being on the field (unless Henry was hurt), but I don't care about the Cowgirls, so I could be wrong...

He still ain't a top 10 corner no matter how you slice it, he could be, but he isn't...
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Old 04-14-2006   #12
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yes, those local sports jocks aren't usually too bright. "henry and glenn are out there, but newman isn't? looks like he's playing poorly." this is something parcells has done for years with his defense, not just at cornerback.

newman is the definition of a shutdown cornerback, and considering how few of those there are in the league, he's definitely top 10.
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Old 04-14-2006   #13
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Well, somehow the Dallas Cowboys managed to start 3 CBs 12+ games.
When an opponent begins the game in a 3 or 4 WR set, the defense will often start more than 2 CBs.
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Old 04-14-2006   #14
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Speaking of the risk in picking a CB, can't help but bring up the PB fiasco though I know this thread is about drafting CBs and not acquiring one thru
a trade.
The risk of trading for a CB already in the NFL certainly should be much less than drafting one in college. That's why, and its probably wishful thinking on my part, but I think there's some chance PB can redeem himself and be a
contributing player to the franchise. Now if Kubiak & Co use that #2 pick
on a CB, that's a clear indication that like most others they don't have any hope for PB either.
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Old 04-14-2006   #15
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Originally Posted by TreWardTxn
Any CB/DB is only as good as the pass rush allows him to be
Very good point. You can have an All-Pro CB, but if the QB has all day to wait on the receiver to break free, he will still have problems.

I wouldn't mind seein us draft Cromartie or Joseph if they make it to the 2nd rd.
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Old 04-14-2006   #16
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I don't know much about what the new defensive scheme, but it's possible PB might fit into the new scheme better than the old one. Regardless of scheme, someone needs to light a fire under him. I hear the new DC is a fiery guy, so maybe they can get PB to play and not ole! on runners that are about to score!
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Old 04-14-2006   #17
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PBuc isn't going to all of sudden like contact and taking on physical running backs, but he can at least get back to doing what he is known for, which is gambling on plays and coming up with huge interceptions. Of course, that means he will get beat alot, so I hope his over-the-top help is of par...
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Old 04-14-2006   #18
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Originally Posted by kastofsna
newman was never benched last year. they rotated he, glenn and henry in and out of the different slots all the time (FSU does the same thing, which is why i laugh when people say antonio cromartie only started 1 game in his career). he was awesome last year, and for some reason no one really noticed. i guess it was only the 3 interceptions. no one threw his way, and when they did, nothing happened. only 1 pass of over 30 yards allowed, an NO touchdowns. sounds damn good to me.
well i'm not sure exactly how many games antonio started but i do know that he made first team all-acc as a sophmore and wasn't the regular starter, and since he missed all of last year i ask how he found time to accumulate all of these starts at cb? with that being said i would love to see the guy being called with the first pick in the second, a perfect complement to dunta.
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Old 04-14-2006   #19
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Richard Marshall looks like the best physical corner in this draft, to me anyway. But i havent really looked real hard at all of the prospects.
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Old 04-14-2006   #20
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well i'm not sure exactly how many games antonio started but i do know that he made first team all-acc as a sophmore and wasn't the regular starter, and since he missed all of last year i ask how he found time to accumulate all of these starts at cb? with that being said i would love to see the guy being called with the first pick in the second, a perfect complement to dunta.
he "started" once, but as i said with dallas, FSU likes to rotate their 3 corners in and out throughout the course of the game. so he wouldn't be there in on the first play of the game, then he's there the next 10. it all depended on matchups.
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