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Old 04-03-2006   #1
jacquescas
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Default Vince vs Leinart

so this is especially for crazy4texas.

I can understand why someone would want a QB over a RB. there is a half valid point there that we have the RB position manned.

By why be so shortsighted and go straight to VY. Why is it not opened up to Leinart, the one QB rated higher than VY by every single expert and talent evaluator?

Please provide resonable discussion why VY should be the first QB off the board.
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Old 04-03-2006   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquescas
so this is especially for crazy4texas.

I can understand why someone would want a QB over a RB. there is a half valid point there that we have the RB position manned.

By why be so shortsighted and go straight to VY. Why is it not opened up to Leinart, the one QB rated higher than VY by every single expert and talent evaluator?

Please provide resonable discussion why VY should be the first QB off the board.
The idea of a mobile QB in Houston is so admirable because of the agony we've endured the past few years. Ya know, breaking all the wrong sack records and all. We'd like to see a guy behind center that has the ability to make some guys miss. Leinart can't do it ...not even Peyton could do it ...and that plagued his team against Pittsburgh this year.

No MATT LEINART ...at least David Carr ran the 40. The guy's got heart!
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Old 04-03-2006   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquescas
so this is especially for crazy4texas.

I can understand why someone would want a QB over a RB. there is a half valid point there that we have the RB position manned.

By why be so shortsighted and go straight to VY. Why is it not opened up to Leinart, the one QB rated higher than VY by every single expert and talent evaluator?

Please provide resonable discussion why VY should be the first QB off the board.
You want a reason why he would be good for us or another team.

For us: Fits the Kubiak playcalling (roll outs, play action, bootlegs and throwing on the run in general.) Won't put too much pressure on the OL because he can escape the pocket. Makes better decisions based on his games at UT. Better arm strength than Matt Leinart. Leinart can move but not better than Young or even Carr. Leinart in my opinion is not even an upgrade over Carr. We would be going backwards. Head coaches even downgrade Young because he was too good to be true. (Billick & Fisher).
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Old 04-03-2006   #4
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Originally Posted by Tha_Tinman
The idea of a mobile QB in Houston is so admirable because of the agony we've endured the past few years. Ya know, breaking all the wrong sack records and all. We'd like to see a guy behind center that has the ability to make some guys miss. Leinart can't do it ...not even Peyton could do it ...and that plagued his team against Pittsburgh this year.

No MATT LEINART ...at least David Carr ran the 40. The guy's got heart!
David Carr is a mobile QB...
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Old 04-03-2006   #5
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Matt Leinhart is no where near the QB Vince young is, look at ESPN, watch the Video on Matt, and even they lean towards Young over Matt.
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Old 04-03-2006   #6
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Look at the video on the pro-day with Matts reported adequate arm strenght, and good but not great arm strenght. Oh and matt was what 46 of 55 and Young was 50 of 55. Young is faster, stronger, and better in the clutch! That why Texas won the Nat Champ with the ball in Young's hands, and USC lost with the Ball in Matts
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Old 04-03-2006   #7
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Quarterbacks who won the superbowl over the last 10 years.

1. Big Ben (Pocket QB)
2. Bradyx3 (Pocket QB)
3. Brad Johnson (Pocket QB)
4. Trent Dilfer (Pocket QB)
5. Kurt Warner (Pocket QB)
6. Elway x2 (Pocket QB)
7. Favre (Pocket QB)
8. Aikman (Pocket QB)

Some of those guys are CAPABLE of running when its necessary, but they arent running QBs like Vick and Young. For the most part, the key to a successful QB seems to be the ability to stay in the pocket and make plays happen with your arm, not your legs.

Young is not that kind of QB. Could we TRAIN him to be that kind of QB? possibly.. but Lienart IS that kind of QB. If I had to choose one or the other, id take Lienart. Not only is he in the same mold as all the most successful QBs.. he has been running an NFL offense all through college. He is ready to start right now.
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Old 04-03-2006   #8
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[quote=Grid]Quarterbacks who won the superbowl over the last 10 years.

1. Big Ben (Pocket QB)
2. Bradyx3 (Pocket QB)
3. Brad Johnson (Pocket QB)
4. Trent Dilfer (Pocket QB)
5. Kurt Warner (Pocket QB)
6. Elway x2 (Pocket QB)
7. Favre (Pocket QB)
8. Aikman (Pocket QB)

Some of those guys are CAPABLE of running when its necessary, but they arent running QBs like Vick and Young. For the most part, the key to a successful QB seems to be the ability to stay in the pocket and make plays happen with your arm, not your legs.


Some of those guys CAN STAY IN THE POCKET WHEN ITS NECESSARY!

Big Ben is not a Pocket QB ...If anything he's a Hybrid ...twhe new breed ...proof that it can be done. Just like Vince. Same wii
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Old 04-03-2006   #9
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Some of those guys CAN STAY IN THE POCKET WHEN ITS NECESSARY!

Big Ben is not a Pocket QB ...If anything he's a Hybrid ...twhe new breed ...proof that it can be done. Just like Vince. Same wii
you really didnt read my post.

They dont just stay in the pocket when it is necessary.. they stay in the pocket to make plays. Young will tuck the ball and try to make plays with his legs instead of waiting for someone to get open.

Carr is closer to Big Ben than Young is.
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Old 04-03-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquescas
so this is especially for crazy4texas.

I can understand why someone would want a QB over a RB. there is a half valid point there that we have the RB position manned.

By why be so shortsighted and go straight to VY. Why is it not opened up to Leinart, the one QB rated higher than VY by every single expert and talent evaluator?

Please provide resonable discussion why VY should be the first QB off the board.
Would I rather have Carr - Bush or Leinart - Davis/Morency in by backfield for years to come? I'll take Carr - Bush and launch Carr in another year if he doesn't pick up his play. I don't like Leinart's lack of mobility and his arm so I'd rather have Bush than Leinart if I was choosing between them.

So, having said that, I'd rather have Young - Davis/Morency than Carr - Bush/Davis as the team I want to build my core team around. I don't want to rehash an old tired argument so yeah yeah yeah, been there.

I'd draft Young, move Carr in the next draft and never look back. I like Bush too so I won't be unhappy when we draft him since I have been wanting speed in the backfield for years. I just think we are passing on a future superstar QB and I'd rather build my team from there.
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Old 04-03-2006   #11
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All you guys are whack.

Leinhart took ballroom dancing. THAT IS EVASIVE MOBILITY SKILLZ RIGHT THURR.
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Old 04-03-2006   #12
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All you guys are whack.

Leinhart took ballroom dancing. THAT IS EVASIVE MOBILITY SKILLZ RIGHT THURR.
i heard he failed the final. :brickwall
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Old 04-03-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Tinman
The idea of a mobile QB in Houston is so admirable because of the agony we've endured the past few years. Ya know, breaking all the wrong sack records and all. We'd like to see a guy behind center that has the ability to make some guys miss. Leinart can't do it ...not even Peyton could do it ...and that plagued his team against Pittsburgh this year.

No MATT LEINART ...at least David Carr ran the 40. The guy's got heart!
I would prefer a QB that has the awareness to move within the pocket and get the ball out of there when in trouble rather than trying to make too many plays with his legs. Peyton Manning isn't very mobile but yet he consistently averages less than one sack per game because he has a good OLine, a good offensive system, and he's great at reading defenses (unless he's playing the Steelers or Patriots, but that's what an effective 3-4 defense will do even to the best of QBs) and he knows when to throw the ball away, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
David Carr is a mobile QB...
People seem to keep forgetting this, he is one of the more mobile QBs in the league and is capable of making some plays with his legs and escaping the pocket, not as well as Vince, but plenty well enough for Denver's offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
Quarterbacks who won the superbowl over the last 10 years.

1. Big Ben (Pocket QB)
2. Bradyx3 (Pocket QB)
3. Brad Johnson (Pocket QB)
4. Trent Dilfer (Pocket QB)
5. Kurt Warner (Pocket QB)
6. Elway x2 (Pocket QB)
7. Favre (Pocket QB)
8. Aikman (Pocket QB)

Some of those guys are CAPABLE of running when its necessary, but they arent running QBs like Vick and Young. For the most part, the key to a successful QB seems to be the ability to stay in the pocket and make plays happen with your arm, not your legs.

Young is not that kind of QB. Could we TRAIN him to be that kind of QB? possibly.. but Lienart IS that kind of QB. If I had to choose one or the other, id take Lienart. Not only is he in the same mold as all the most successful QBs.. he has been running an NFL offense all through college. He is ready to start right now.
Excellent work on this post. Elway was definitely a scrambler in his prime but by the time he won his two Super Bowls he was predominantly a pocket passer. You are right on about successful QBs being the ones that have the ability to stay in the pocket (move around in the pocket if they have to) and wait for plays to develop. Certainly the ability to make plays with your legs if you absolutely have to is a bonus, but Vince Young still gives up on plays and looks to run too early (from all the games I saw this year and the tapes I borrowed and re-watched) similar to Michael Vick. Both of them need to work on that and stay in the pocket longer if they want to preserve their careers longer and probably to have greater success.

Last edited by MorKnolle; 04-03-2006 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 04-03-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquescas
so this is especially for crazy4texas.

I can understand why someone would want a QB over a RB. there is a half valid point there that we have the RB position manned.

By why be so shortsighted and go straight to VY. Why is it not opened up to Leinart, the one QB rated higher than VY by every single expert and talent evaluator?

Please provide resonable discussion why VY should be the first QB off the board.
Leinert's pro day was average at best. He is NOT every single "expert" and "talent evaluator's" top prospect. Three different scouts that were just commenting on the NFL Network stated that his arm was WEAK on the 18-20 yard routes! 18-20 yards? Wow! He threw too many balls at receiver's feet and only a few were tight spirals. He is the 3rd rated QB on Mayock's board (behind Cutler and Young) and is being compared to Chris Simms, who was drafted in the 3rd round. The consensus now is that if the Titans pass on him (which looks very likely) that he may fall out of the top 10. Also, people need to stop comparing him to Carson Palmer. He has nowhere near that type of arm strength.

Just flip it over to the NFL Network, Total Access....they are talking about it right now.
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Old 04-03-2006   #15
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Why would we want a QB who is slower, weaker-armed, and thinks he is even prettier than our current QB? I once heard Michael Irvin say that he questioned Roy Williams' (Det. WR) heart about not coming out after his Junior year. I didn't necessarily agree because Roy hadn't won a NC and it was possible that he wanted that opportunity. But this guy had all the personal accolades and the hardware to go along with and he still came back to USC to ballroom dance and live like a playboy in LA. Not a redflag, but a headscratcher if you believe competitive spirit is one of the most important components to the pro game...

And I want to say this, alot of cats on this board are flip-flopping now. A month ago they swore they would slap their mama before they drafted VY over Leinart. I'm sure a few hearts have changed today. You (and the FO) might want to reconsider Young as that #1 pick or get used to having to rethink what they thought was right a year or two from now...

Last edited by TreWardTxn; 04-03-2006 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 04-03-2006   #16
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Originally Posted by TreWardTxn
Why would we want a QB who is slower, weaker-armed, and thinks he is even prettier than our current QB? I once heard Michael Irvin say that he questioned Roy Williams' (Det. WR) heart about not coming out after his Junior year. I didn't necessarily agree because Roy hadn't won a NC and it was possible that he wanted that opportunity. But this guy had all the personal accolades and the hardware to go along with and he still came back to USC to ballroom dance and live like a playboy in LA. Not a redflag, but a headscratcher if you believe competitive spirit is one of the most important components to the pro game...

Leinart came back to USC because he had shoulder surgery in the offseason.
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Old 04-03-2006   #17
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Leinert=Ryan Leaf

Lol...just kidding.
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Old 04-03-2006   #18
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i like matt lion heart i would love to have in out team i think he can be special and i think he is the most NFL ready Qb coming out with that said i really like young i think his upside is greater than any player coming out this year. so my choice would be V.Young but not with the 1st overall i would look to trade down with the titans or the jets to aquire any of this QB's.
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Old 04-03-2006   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulexan
Leinart came back to USC because he had shoulder surgery in the offseason.
His shoulder surgery was minor, he still would have been the #1 QB picked in the draft. With all the bashing the new San Fran owner gets, he probably didn't want to play for him. I think he wanted to repeat, and with all his weapons coming back, he knew he had a great chance and just fell short.
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Old 04-04-2006   #20
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With Leinert's average workout on his pro day...I would rate
1. Young
2. Leinert
3. Cutler

Projected 2006 mock:

1. Reggie Bush - Texans
2. Mario Williams - Packers ( trade with Saints)
3. D' Brickashaw Ferguson - Titans
4. A. J. Hawk - Jets
5. Michael Huff - Saints
6. Vernon Davis - 49ers
7. Vince Young - Raiders
8. Haloti Ngata - Bills
9. Winston Justice - Lions
10. Matt Leinert - Cardinals
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