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Old 03-02-2006   #1
Tha_Tinman
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Default Is It Really Smart To Draft OL In 1st?

Let's just have a look at the offensive line of the current SuperBowl Champions ...shall we?

LT Marvel Smith 2nd Round 7th pick 38th Overall 2000
LG Alan Faneca 1st Round 26th 26th 1998 Pro Bowl
C Jeff Hartings 1st Round 23rd 23rd 1996 Pro Bowl
RG Kendall Simmons 1st Round 30th 2002
RT Max Starks 3rd Round 12th 75th Overall 2002

I don't remember hearing anything bad about these guys ...you can get quality linemen in later picks. I see no need to blow a top 10 pick on a lineman. It is also notable that all but one of these guys were drafted by the Steelers.

Now, the Texans have been around since 2002 ...Soooooo Who WAS taken in the first ...Lets see.

2002 1st Round 4th Pick Mike Williams - was just released by the Bills

1st Round 10th Pick Levi Jones - actually not bad, and team was 11-5 w/disappointing playoff loss this year

1st Round 29th Pick Marc Colombo - Was CUT by the Bears, picked up by the Cowboys and is now a backup

2003 1st Round 8th Pick Jordan Gross - Ok. I'll give ya THIS guy.

1st Round 20th Pick George Foster - Missed entire rookie season after being injured on THE FIRST DAY OF TRAINING CAMP!

1st Round 26th Pick Kwame Harris - His team has been 1 of the worst since he's been there, not saying it's his fault, I'm just saying!

2004 1st Round 2nd Pick Robert Gallery - In 2yrs played 32 games and is actually pretty good. But his team was 4-12 last year. So big deal.

16th Pick Shawn Andrews - missed rookie season due to injury. Bounced back but this year his team ...6-10 ...again Big deal

2005 1st Round 13th Pick Jammal Brown - started 13 games as a rooke for the SAINTS ...so what?!?

1st Round 19th Pick Alex Barron - His coach got fired after his rookie season ...not saying it's HIS fault, etc etc

1st Round 26th Pick Chris Spencer - Not many Centers taken in the 1st, he must have been good! But who knows, he was a BACKUP all year. What a waste

1st Round 32 Pick Logan Mankins - A REALLY good pick up for the Pats ...but he's a LATE 1st rounder ...STRENGTHENS my argument

My conclusion ....Don't WASTE this pick on some OVERWEIGHT lineman, when we can build a SOLID and SUCCESSFUL line in later rounds.
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Old 03-02-2006   #2
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I don't disagree with your point. I think there are many good OL finds outside of the 1st round.
However, to me your argument really loses a lot of credibility due to poor reasoning.
Ok, Foster was injured but is now the Denver starter at RT.
Shawn Andrews should also not be looked upon as a bad pick due solely to an injury. Virtually all players get injured.
Harris, Gallery, Barron and Jammal Brown are all considered poor picks because their teams had losing records? come on... aren't all of these guys starters?
Also, Barron is a bad pick because Martz was fired? I guess Pace is a crappy LT under the conditions of your system...
And Spencer being a back up is not really a reason to grade him poorly yet. Center is the most difficult position to play on the Ol, and rookies aren't expected to come in and start right away at the position. The jury is still out on this one.
I get and agree with the point of your post, but to me you completely weaken your position with poor reasoning. It's really hard to take you seriously at all. It's almost to the point that if someone else comes along and calls this post trolling, I couldn't argue with them...
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Old 03-02-2006   #3
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Well, it was sure hard to detect any slant in that analysis. The Steelers OL is not exactly a shining example of your point when they have 3 1st rounders and all 5 are 1st day picks--that is probably one of the heavier investments of draft choices in an OL. If you want examples of late round OL's, try looking up Denver and Atlanta (put together by Alex Gibbs/Shanahan/Kubiak)--you'll find more undrafted players than 1st day players.
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Old 03-02-2006   #4
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Infantrycak's got a pretty good point.....

Are you trying to be sarcastic?? or do you mean top 5 when you say high draft pick??
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Old 03-02-2006   #5
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that's exactly what i was thinking..they have 3 1st's and a high 2nd!!! lol...no they aren't top ten but that's where we are picking...and brick's what we need...plus others!!
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Old 03-02-2006   #6
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Of course we should take an OL in the first round if we were to trade down and he is the best player on the board. The last tackle taken with the first pick is a guy by the name of Orlando Pace. He's won a super bowl, been to another, and has a hotel room booked in Hawaii the week of the pro-bowl. D'Brick is being compared too Jon Odgen, and if he is half the player he is then its worth a top 10 pick. The question with D'Brick was size (up 15 pounds from senior bowl) and if he adds the bulk is he still as mobile as he was(wont now until his senior day). The question is do we take the OL over Mario Williams and pick up the OL in the second round?
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Old 03-02-2006   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelm
I don't disagree with your point. I think there are many good OL finds outside of the 1st round.
However, to me your argument really loses a lot of credibility due to poor reasoning.
Ok, Foster was injured but is now the Denver starter at RT.
Shawn Andrews should also not be looked upon as a bad pick due solely to an injury. Virtually all players get injured.
Harris, Gallery, Barron and Jammal Brown are all considered poor picks because their teams had losing records? come on... aren't all of these guys starters?
Also, Barron is a bad pick because Martz was fired? I guess Pace is a crappy LT under the conditions of your system...
And Spencer being a back up is not really a reason to grade him poorly yet. Center is the most difficult position to play on the Ol, and rookies aren't expected to come in and start right away at the position. The jury is still out on this one.
I get and agree with the point of your post, but to me you completely weaken your position with poor reasoning. It's really hard to take you seriously at all. It's almost to the point that if someone else comes along and calls this post trolling, I couldn't argue with them...
Yeah you're right ...
I purposely slanted the review of these guys ...but only to make a point. I just REALLY wanna draft Vince. If not, for gosh sakes ...Draft Bush. But, the idea of drafting a lineman just doesn't make sense. If this team loses again ...which is possible EVEN if D'Brick does his job, then WE are ALL going to be critical of the decision to draft him. THAT was my point.

And I'm really not sure how dependable D'Brick is gonna be with all of this new weight. I mean seriously, when is he gonna stop? 325, 350? His frame really isn't accustomed to playing at that weight and I feel he's risking injury.

If you're gonna trade down ...pick up some value and draft Vernon Davis!!!!
That guy is a beast, and line him up with Andre Johnson ...they could give guys fits!
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Old 03-02-2006   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Tinman
Yeah you're right ...
I purposely slanted the review of these guys ...but only to make a point. I just REALLY wanna draft Vince. If not, for gosh sakes ...

Well in that case, forget what I said.....

You have a good point... well thought out... I'm with you.
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Old 03-02-2006   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Tinman
Yeah you're right ...
I purposely slanted the review of these guys ...but only to make a point. I just REALLY wanna draft Vince. If not, for gosh sakes ...Draft Bush. But, the idea of drafting a lineman just doesn't make sense. If this team loses again ...which is possible EVEN if D'Brick does his job, then WE are ALL going to be critical of the decision to draft him. THAT was my point.

And I'm really not sure how dependable D'Brick is gonna be with all of this new weight. I mean seriously, when is he gonna stop? 325, 350? His frame really isn't accustomed to playing at that weight and I feel he's risking injury.

If you're gonna trade down ...pick up some value and draft Vernon Davis!!!!
That guy is a beast, and line him up with Andre Johnson ...they could give guys fits!
You sound like someone that just wants a flashy pick with our selection. We will be critical of whoever we draft if they are a bust and/or we continue to lose. IMO D'Brick could be our starting OLT for the next 10+ years. This team needs to start addressing its biggest needs or they are going to continue to struggle.
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Old 03-02-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Tinman
Let's just have a look at the offensive line of the current SuperBowl Champions ...shall we?

LT Marvel Smith 2nd Round 7th pick 38th Overall 2000
LG Alan Faneca 1st Round 26th 26th 1998 Pro Bowl
C Jeff Hartings 1st Round 23rd 23rd 1996 Pro Bowl
RG Kendall Simmons 1st Round 30th 2002
RT Max Starks 3rd Round 12th 75th Overall 2002

I don't remember hearing anything bad about these guys ...you can get quality linemen in later picks. I see no need to blow a top 10 pick on a lineman. It is also notable that all but one of these guys were drafted by the Steelers.

By listing the Superbowl winning Pittsburgh Steelers O-line consisting of 3 first rounders , one second rounder and one third rounder .... ALL first day picks .... You shoot your own theory in the foot .

Isnt the point of playing the season to WIN THE SUPERBOWL ? If so then the Steelers have just driven home the point that games are won and lost in the trenches .

I dont think there is a QB in the NFL that could be successful behind the Texans pass blocking ....The Texans QB's have been sacked 229 times in the past 4 seasons . 208 by Carr , Banks 13 and Ragone 8.... I for one am sick to death of watching the offense struggle because of this .
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Old 03-02-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corrosion
By listing the Superbowl winning Pittsburgh Steelers O-line consisting of 3 first rounders , one second rounder and one third rounder .... ALL first day picks .... You shoot your own theory in the foot .

Isnt the point of playing the season to WIN THE SUPERBOWL ? If so then the Steelers have just driven home the point that games are won and lost in the trenches .

I dont think there is a QB in the NFL that could be successful behind the Texans pass blocking ....The Texans QB's have been sacked 229 times in the past 4 seasons . 208 by Carr , Banks 13 and Ragone 8.... I for one am sick to death of watching the offense struggle because of this .
Okay, but why are we(collectively) targeting D'Brick?? I don't know the kid, but I was seriously dissappointed with him at the combine..... main thing, that his weight, looks to be getting out of hand........ is this normal for him in the offseason?? wouldn't it make sense to keep stay close to playing weight, 'til after the combine??

I'm really likeing the sound of Denver's 2 #1s........ but some have said they are too low.....
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Old 03-02-2006   #12
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I'd also have to question....did you look at the drafts the year these guys were picked?

I mean you pretty much generalized each draft here. Some year's lineman are deeper so you can get talent deeper. Some years there is less so you might reach on a player.

Its no different with every other position. If Bush came out last year is he the top pick in the draft? Possibly but with the depth at running back you'd still have to WONDER.
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Old 03-02-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Okay, but why are we(collectively) targeting D'Brick?? I don't know the kid, but I was seriously dissappointed with him at the combine..... main thing, that his weight, looks to be getting out of hand........ is this normal for him in the offseason?? wouldn't it make sense to keep stay close to playing weight, 'til after the combine??
If anything the knock against D'Brick is that he plays too light (which is actually a plus in the Denver style of offense). He has purposefully put on weight to prove the critics wrong. He is not going to be able to add much more weight.
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Old 03-02-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Okay, but why are we(collectively) targeting D'Brick?? I don't know the kid, but I was seriously dissappointed with him at the combine..... main thing, that his weight, looks to be getting out of hand........ is this normal for him in the offseason?? wouldn't it make sense to keep stay close to playing weight, 'til after the combine??
D'Brick's biggest question mark coming into the draft was his playing weight--too low, not too high. People were worried he would never be able to get above 295 lbs or so. He has put on this weight to demonstrate he can gain it and carry it, not because he has poor off-season habits.

Oops Ogre beat me to it.
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Old 03-02-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corrosion
By listing the Superbowl winning Pittsburgh Steelers O-line consisting of 3 first rounders , one second rounder and one third rounder .... ALL first day picks .... You shoot your own theory in the foot .

Isnt the point of playing the season to WIN THE SUPERBOWL ? If so then the Steelers have just driven home the point that games are won and lost in the trenches .

I dont think there is a QB in the NFL that could be successful behind the Texans pass blocking ....The Texans QB's have been sacked 229 times in the past 4 seasons . 208 by Carr , Banks 13 and Ragone 8.... I for one am sick to death of watching the offense struggle because of this .


NO NO NO! Not at all ...What I said was ...I would never draft an OL with a TOP TEN PICK! The Steeler's guys were #23, #26, & #32. If we had a late 1st round pick like those ...and D'Brick was the best choice available ...then I'd stand on my feet and applaud at the selection.

That is not the case here.

Also,

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
You sound like someone that just wants a flashy pick with our selection. We will be critical of whoever we draft if they are a bust and/or we continue to lose. IMO D'Brick could be our starting OLT for the next 10+ years. This team needs to start addressing its biggest needs or they are going to continue to struggle.

1: Vince Young
2: Vernon Davis
3: Reggie Bush
4: Mario whatz his name ...the DE

I'd ONLY use the pick on Vince or Bush ...If I traded down ...I wouldn't get out of range to select The Duke or Mario ...otherwise the whole draft goes down the tube in my opinion. There are PLENTY of out of work and experience guys via FA for everything else. Teams are dumping guys like crazy right now.
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Old 03-02-2006   #16
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What position was Pace drafted and did he win a Super Bowl? Was Walter Jones picked up in the late 1st round? I'm sure Ogden wasn't picked in the top 10 right?

Well there goes that argument right out the window.

There really is no "formula" for picked offensive linemen.
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Old 03-02-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Okay, but why are we(collectively) targeting D'Brick?? I don't know the kid, but I was seriously dissappointed with him at the combine..... main thing, that his weight, looks to be getting out of hand........ is this normal for him in the offseason?? wouldn't it make sense to keep stay close to playing weight, 'til after the combine??

I'm really likeing the sound of Denver's 2 #1s........ but some have said they are too low.....
wait a minute...wait a minute..lemme re-read that.....hmm you were disappointed? wow you are very harsh because he was considered to be THE shining star of the combine...at least from what i heard...i'm not saying take brick....i don't care what we do with the pick unless we take vince...that's the only mistake i think we could make...IMO....but i want to know how he was disappointing...just his weight?
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Old 03-02-2006   #18
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The only thing is, that if you don't use a top 20 (and maybe even a top 10) selection on an OLT, you have almost no chance of getting a stud to play the position. That is more true of that position than any other on the field.
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Old 03-02-2006   #19
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so what are you saying exactly that if your team needs a offensive lineman and there is one available in the 1st round you shouldn't take him because the o-line isn't as important as the rest of the positions?...that's not right...you draft o-lineman in the first round when you think they will help your team...our team needs o-lineman...so it makes sense for us to draft one in the 1st round
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Old 03-02-2006   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha_Tinman
NO NO NO! Not at all ...What I said was ...I would never draft an OL with a TOP TEN PICK! The Steeler's guys were #23, #26, & #32. If we had a late 1st round pick like those ...and D'Brick was the best choice available ...then I'd stand on my feet and applaud at the selection.

That is not the case here.

.
Yeah, I agree....who would want Orlando Pace, Jonathen Ogden, Tony Boselli, Willie Roaf, Lincoln Kennedy, Walter Jones, Willie Anderson or Chris Samuels on our team? That's just to name a few of the tackles taken in the top ten over the past 10 years or so. Yes, a good tackle can be found in the mid to late 1st round, but a franchise caliber LT is almost always taken in the top 10. I want someone who will anchor our line for the next 10 years, protecting our QBs blind side.
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