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Old 02-22-2006   #1
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Default If a running back can run, why can't a QB?

One of the main arguments against VY is that he won't be able to do in the NFL the things he did in college. Heretofore I just assumed this was correct--it's what is always said of running QBs. But tonight I started wondering--why exactly can't he run? A RB runs and takes hits and keeps playing. So who's to say that VY can't? He's bigger by a good margin than many if not most of the people who'll be hitting him, he's elusive (all you have to do is watch some of his runs in college to see that), he's fast AND quick, and he has moves to avoid the hits. All things you'd want in a running back, I imagine.

So without falling back on the assumed cliches, please explain why VY won't be able to run some in the NFL. I'm not saying run 25-30 times a game, but on broken plays, pass/run option plays, some designed plays, VY could be used as a runner, could he not?

I guess I'm saying he's a pretty good running back as a QB and I don't think the NFL defenses are going to shut him down as easily as some of the posters here seem to think. I don't think VY will run roughshod over the Steelers D, but I'm wondering if he couldn't do some occasional damage in a game AND take the hits he might have to take to get the yards.

Set me straight on this one, will you guys?
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Old 02-22-2006   #2
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Domanick Davis, Fred Taylor, and Chris Brown spent a combined 23 weeks on the injury report last season. Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell spent a combined 8 weeks on the injury report last season. It's pretty simple. The more you get hit as a runner, the higher the injury risk. If you take the risk, you better be willing to accept the consequences and have a backup plan in place in case the risk becomes reality. "In general," RBs are able to be replaced more easily with less net effect to the overall team performance - just by sheer numbers and depth on the roster - than a star QB
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Old 02-22-2006   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk
So without falling back on the assumed cliches, please explain why VY won't be able to run some in the NFL.
He will be able to run some but (1) as aj points out it may not be the best overall choice for the team for him to do so and (2) it will predictably be less effective (not ineffective, less--probably still makes lots of the 5-20 yd plays but doesn't bust off the 200 yd rushing days) because the field stays the same size and everyone on the field are both better athletes and smarter about their play. His running ability, especially to the extent he can use it to buy time before throwing, will be a big asset in the NFL.
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Old 02-22-2006   #4
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Originally Posted by Nighthawk
I guess I'm saying he's a pretty good running back as a QB and I don't think the NFL defenses are going to shut him down as easily as some of the posters here seem to think. I don't think VY will run roughshod over the Steelers D, but I'm wondering if he couldn't do some occasional damage in a game AND take the hits he might have to take to get the yards.
Try this on for size, OK ? If a RB was a mediocre runner but a guy with a
great arm who was a tremendous passer, you'd make him a QB. Right ?
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Old 02-22-2006   #5
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For the same reason Pitchers can't bat in AL Baseball. Just kidding. He won't run on NFL teams like he did against, say, OK State...but you realize that already.

I'll say this...VY may not be able to do some things he did in college but he is still going to be able to do more than most NFL QB's. I don't see any reason there shouldn't be a few designed running plays. If he runs he still isn't likely going to get hit as much as Carr behind the line of scrimage...lol.

Whoever takes him will try to turn him into more of a pocket passer...because that is what NFL teams do. Partially because that is what they want in their QB, that is the norm, and to protect their investment. I think this will only make VY a better all around QB because teams are not going to be able to ignore his gamebreaking ability and not let him take off every now and then.
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Old 02-22-2006   #6
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Originally Posted by The Myth

I don't see any reason there shouldn't be a few designed running plays.
Because you'll be designing your failure..... at all cost, we have to protect the QB. This means not to throw him out there to get hit. More than any single player, on any team, however goes the QB, so goes the team. If he struggles, your team struggles. If he's successful, your team is successful.

Sure, you're going to have exceptions..... David Garrod looks like he is ready to be a starter now, where in the past he wasn't. Most teams aren't that fortunate. When the Back up goes in, everybody says...."Oh yeah, that's why he's the backup."
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Whoever takes him will try to turn him into more of a pocket passer...because that is what NFL teams do. Partially because that is what they want in their QB, that is the norm, and to protect their investment. I think this will only make VY a better all around QB because teams are not going to be able to ignore his gamebreaking ability and not let him take off every now and then.
Yes and no........

You have guys like Jake Plummer, who is actually better on the move. You also have offensive lines, like ours, like Jakes, that weren't built for a drop back passer. Smaller more athletic linemen tend to get over powered by defensive ends/tackles who were bred to run over 300+ pound offensive linemen. So teams like Denver move the pocket. Why we don't, I don't know.

But if I had Vince, on this team, we'd move the pocket to protect him. Vince is great at moving to his right, and looking down field. If the play is broken, I'll try to keep Vince behind the line of scrimmage, moving laterally towards the sideline. He can either find the open reiciever, throw the ball away to protect himself, or if he sees an easy ten yard pick-up, go ahead and take it. But I'll be in his ear, if he has to slide before the ten yards, or takes a hit, regardless of the yardage he picks up.

One more thing...... McNabb, Culpepper, McNair........ they all play hurt, most of the time. Imagine if they could stay healthy for a whole season..
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Old 02-22-2006   #7
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VY's mobility will be an asset in the NFL, but he won't be as effective scrambling as he was in NCAA. Everybody is faster.

Also QB's are typically in for every offensive play and the timing of the offense is dependant on consistancy at QB. How many times have you seen the face of the team change for better or worse when a new QB in subbed in? Most teams platoon their RB's in some fashion, so if one a guy has sit for a bit to clear his head, someone else can fill in for a few plays without a big change to the gameplan.

I don't question any NFL player's toughness (except maybe some kickers), but the fact is, the only time a QB gets hit is in a game when something goes wrong. RB's are just better at taking a beating and getting back up. They are trained for it.
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Old 02-22-2006   #8
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The better runners are more often to get injured as well...they bounce off one hit then get wholloped again when they finally get tackled, so in 1 play they take 2-3 hits if not more depending.
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Old 02-22-2006   #9
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Originally Posted by JohnGalt
RB's are just better at taking a beating and getting back up. They are trained for it.
I think there is a lot of truth to this. The fact is, when RBs run, they aren't trying to do anything else. They are focused on hitting a hole and avoiding tackles, Keeping their shoulders and head low, thereby reducing most of the big hits they might otherwise absorb. QBs on the other hand, are often trying to by time to make a throw, which means they're attention is focused elsewhere leaving them open to be caught in an ackward position to take a big hit. And even when it is a called run or blown pass play where VY has committed to the run, he doesn't run like a RB, he tends to still run a bit too upright which could lead to serious injury on the professional level if he was to take off on a regular basis.
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Old 02-22-2006   #10
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My take is that those "running" QB's don't get the job done because they are not utilized to their talents. Take Vick for instance, they tried to make him a strictly west coast offensive QB, that worked horribly because that is not Vicks game and coaches have to much of an ego to adapt to a QB's style. I don't think that Kubiak and his staff are going to bring in years of experience that they've gathered to come to a new team, select a staff, and just wing it around a rookie talent whom they do not have experience in coaching and letting him do his thing. Mack actaully let that happen, but it's not going to happen too often in the NFL.

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Old 02-22-2006   #11
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If these "running" QBs of today were smart (meaning long term thinking and career preservation), they'd use their natural running abilities to scramble instead of run.

When I see old clips of Fran Tarkenton or Roger Staubach, it amazes me because those guys were great runners, but they never went past the line of scrimmage. They'd run 30-50 yards behind the line until a WR got open, then pass the ball. They took less punishment than if they were trying to gain positive yardage with their feet, and throwing the ball will always be a more effective way to gain yards for a QB than running with it.

Of course, a scrambling QB still has to have a great arm and lots of patience. I'm not sure if some of the young running QBs of today have both of those traits (not speaking of anyone specifically, just in general).
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Old 02-22-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
He will be able to run some but (1) as aj points out it may not be the best overall choice for the team for him to do so and (2) it will predictably be less effective (not ineffective, less--probably still makes lots of the 5-20 yd plays but doesn't bust off the 200 yd rushing days) because the field stays the same size and everyone on the field are both better athletes and smarter about their play. His running ability, especially to the extent he can use it to buy time before throwing, will be a big asset in the NFL.
This is what I will be interested to see. How quickly does Young adapt to NFL defenses as far as his scrambling/running goes? I do not think you will see "Vince Young run" plays called very much, if at all. As AJ and others have said, it is typically far more detrimental to your offense if your starting QB goes out than does your starting RB, and if Vince is deliberately running the ball, the simple truth is he is more exposed and more likely to take that killer blow. Even if he doesn't get KO'ed, he will still get tired quicker or pick up little nagging injuries. Sure, there will be times where he can just take off and go, but I wonder how long it will take him to get accustomed to the faster athletes/better pursuit angles.

Will be interesting to see.
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Old 02-22-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerek
This is what I will be interested to see. How quickly does Young adapt to NFL defenses as far as his scrambling/running goes? I do not think you will see "Vince Young run" plays called very much, if at all. As AJ and others have said, it is typically far more detrimental to your offense if your starting QB goes out than does your starting RB, and if Vince is deliberately running the ball, the simple truth is he is more exposed and more likely to take that killer blow. Even if he doesn't get KO'ed, he will still get tired quicker or pick up little nagging injuries. Sure, there will be times where he can just take off and go, but I wonder how long it will take him to get accustomed to the faster athletes/better pursuit angles.

Will be interesting to see.

its weird, honestly I feel like if your mobile qb has good instincts as far as avoiding hits goes, hes fine. I would rather carr get tackled in the open field than to get blindsided in the pocket.

and one more note, I have never in my entire life seen VY tired, its really weird. i was talkin to my fiend about it a few weeks ago, and we both noticed we have never seen vince fatigued.
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Old 02-22-2006   #14
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Originally Posted by stevo3883
and one more note, I have never in my entire life seen VY tired, its really weird. i was talkin to my fiend about it a few weeks ago, and we both noticed we have never seen vince fatigued.
I've noticed that too. That's just another example of his work ethic and conditioning.

Go back and look at the end of the USC game. Even after playing full-speed in a tight game all day and running for 200 yards, he still never looked fatigued during UT's last two drives. I have a pic of him running for the 80-yard TD against Oklahoma St.....there is a close-up of his head and if you didn't know any better, you'd think he was sitting on the sideline...no huffing,puffing, eyes open wide...nothing....just calm and effortless.
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Old 02-22-2006   #15
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I think Young will be able to run and scramble at the next level. I just think it won't be as big a part of his game as it was in college. Alot of reasons have already been given as to why. So I'll just throw this one on top of those. A running back's main weapon are his legs. So he can lower his shoulder and take a lick, whereas the QB's greatest weapon is his arm, yes his legs can be a weapon but he needs to pass. So when he lowers his shoulders to take a hit especially his passing shoulder. There's always a risk he could injure it or wear it out.
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Old 02-22-2006   #16
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My only problem with running QBs is that they have a history of getting hurt in the pros and no modern day running QB has ever won a championship.
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Old 02-22-2006   #17
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My only problem with running QBs is that they have a history of getting hurt in the pros and no modern day running QB has ever won a championship.

there hadnt been one to win a national championship since tommy frazier, and he was an entirely running qb.


fact is there hasnt been a qb like Vince, vick wasnt in college long enough to reach the level where vince is.


its just so hard to find a guy whos athletic enough to beat a team on the ground, but smart enough to beat them through the air as well. A great true dual-threat qb is the hardest thing to find in football. People are always a lot better than one than the other. Vince showed a level of both that hasnt really ever been seen (3000 passing yards 26 td's nation leading qb efficiency rating, 1000 rushing yards 12 td's @ 7ypc)

there is Vick who is a fantastic runner, and a mediocre passer. and guys like mcnabb and culpepper who are fantastic passers and so-so runners.

I'd put vince in the good/great passer and fantastic runner.
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Old 02-22-2006   #18
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and just fyi there is a history of every kind of qb getting hurt in the pros. its rare for a player to not get hurt.

the fact that there are a lot more non-mobile qb's means that there will be more that don't end up injured than the few scrambling qb's.
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Old 02-22-2006   #19
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there hadnt been one to win a national championship since tommy frazier, and he was an entirely running qb.


fact is there hasnt been a qb like Vince, vick wasnt in college long enough to reach the level where vince is.


its just so hard to find a guy whos athletic enough to beat a team on the ground, but smart enough to beat them through the air as well. A great true dual-threat qb is the hardest thing to find in football. People are always a lot better than one than the other. Vince showed a level of both that hasnt really ever been seen (3000 passing yards 26 td's nation leading qb efficiency rating, 1000 rushing yards 12 td's @ 7ypc)

there is Vick who is a fantastic runner, and a mediocre passer. and guys like mcnabb and culpepper who are fantastic passers and so-so runners.

I'd put vince in the good/great passer and fantastic runner.
I agree I think Vince could easily be better than any of the QBs you mentioned.
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Old 02-22-2006   #20
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and just fyi there is a history of every kind of qb getting hurt in the pros. its rare for a player to not get hurt.

the fact that there are a lot more non-mobile qb's means that there will be more that don't end up injured than the few scrambling qb's.
You cant tell me that running QBs dont stand a better chance of getting hurt than a pocket QB considering Vick, McNabb, Culpepper, and McNair which is every starting runing QB all got hurt at some point during last season.
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