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Old 02-20-2006   #1
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Default our QB situation

the more i think about it, and the more i hear about VY's capabilities, the more i start to sway from reggie over to VY. david carr is on the early xmas gift list of a lot of clubs, and im sure they see carr's potential. if the texans would like to cross out alot of needs, trade david carr for some major defense help. there are enough free agent o-lineman that would desire coming to htown bc of the change to kubiak. with the reports of vy working out with rohme at rice stadium, all i can wonder about is...man if he lives up to what rohme believes, then we would be perfect here in houston. imagine the talent and fan base going hand in hand....VY would be an absolute icon in houston for many years. one thing that caught my attention was how rohme stated that vy's ability to throw on the run was alot better than we all imagined. everyone believes that vy would struggle with that mainly bc he got to sit behind the best o-line in college football for the past 2 years and take as much time as he needed, but apparently rohme was very impressed. throwing on the run is something im sure kubiak treasures, mainly bc of his work with jake plummer. i believe these workouts that young is having is a showcase to show the texans front office that he has the goods to play under kubiaks system and be an elite QB. besides, VY has that vibe that really sinks in with the other players. he makes others play better bc he helps keep the team relaxed. his work ethic is unmatched and he is always looking forward to getting better. how can the texans NOT draft vince young?

lets think about it. reggie bush is a hell of a talent, and has massive potential, but there are so many other needs on this team, that RB shouldnt be an issue. im satisfied with domanick davis. he averaged 4.2 yds per carry last yr, which is very satisfactory. he just needs more touches. if u trade david carr, u can pick up some pieces to help other areas, especially on the defensive side of the ball.
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Old 02-20-2006   #2
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FYI, there is no QB controversy. We aren't selecting Young with the #1 pick in the draft.

Feb. 9, 2006 - 10:41 pm et

The Texans exercised QB David Carr's contract option, keeping him with the team through 2008.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3649092.html
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Old 02-20-2006   #3
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The SESupergenius Speaks before the Team does, ANd seems to know more than Bob McNair, Amazing
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Old 02-20-2006   #4
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SSDD.

Congratulations on repeating the reigning pro-Vince argument verbatim.

"... David Carr would fetch lots in a trade, Vince could and likely will live up all of the hype, surefire, hard worker, fan icon, etc. etc. ..."

Same argument, same problems. Carr isn't cheap, will cost us a small fortune to trade this season, isn't likely to fetch much of consequence as he is still relatively unproven. Vince is still a somewhat-project, will cost us a large fortune (~55M), and is at best a debatably moderate upgrade to a position we are already decent in and committed to contract-wise. Meanwhile we were 2-14 last year (due in large part to coaching, IMO, which we have rectified, but still ...) and we have a lot of ground to cover in this offseason.

If we didn't have a salary cap ...

If we didn't have David Carr on a 3-year, bonus-heavy contract ...

If we didn't have multiple other, far more pressing needs ...

If we couldn't trade this pick or better utilize it to add to this team now ...

Then yes, draft Vince Young. But the problem is, we do have a salary cap, we do have David Carr, we do have other, far more pressing needs, and we can use the pick better somewhere else.

I have stated it a million times, I think Vince will be a good NFL player. But the logistics of the situation - specifically, the Texans situation - dictate he will be a good player somewhere else.

Costs too much (real and opportunity cost) for not enough gain.
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Old 02-20-2006   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
FYI, there is no QB controversy. We aren't selecting Young with the #1 pick in the draft.

Feb. 9, 2006 - 10:41 pm et

The Texans exercised QB David Carr's contract option, keeping him with the team through 2008.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3649092.html
Usually it's the fans deciding if there is a QB controversy. By the way I see it, we've had one since the Browns game 2 seasons ago. When he was booed like the dickens when he was coming back onto the field after he took a play or two off due to some sort of injury, yea. People were booing Carr off the field once the game was over saying things like you suck and etc...

That's when he vehemently went to the coaching staff and demanded a change and he got it. Only problem was he wasn't smart enough QB passing wise to pull off the new system in the pre-season so they botched it and went back to the old system yet to no avail it failed as well. So now he has failed at two different system (look for the open receiver down field and the dink and dunk ((passes to running back don't count)) 2-3 step drop). Now we just had a 2-14 season and everyone else got the blame except for him. I mean for crying out loud, he's 2 commercials w/ Clemons referencing the fact that he's sack prone, that **** ain't funny. Not to mention he was sacked 32 times in his senior season, that's kinda steep if you consider VY and Leinert had less than 20 combined.

Bottom line there is QB controversy, whether it's the traditional kind where you have a vialble back-up or that the guy sux that bad where a change, any change is needed.
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Old 02-20-2006   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Texan
The SESupergenius Speaks before the Team does, ANd seems to know more than Bob McNair, Amazing
What does McNair know anyway. He complains about having a losing team, yet he stood by four 4 years watching his QB get pounded into the ground and seeing Capers run the rest of the team into the ground. Seriously, what would McNair know. Anyone on this board knows more about operations and football in general than McNair. He signs checks, and has yet to prove otherwise.
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Old 02-20-2006   #7
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I'll counter your argument. Yes, we have more pressing needs on this team. Quarterback isn't one of them, and neither is running back. You say trade Carr for some defensive help. I say trade the #1 pick for a defensive starter, move back to the #4 or #5 pick and get a defensive player (AJ Hawk, Mario Williams) or an offensive lineman (Ferguson).

As for Domanick Davis, he averaged 4.2 yards a carry, but he was hurt for about 1/4th of the season. Giving him more touches isn't going to keep him healthy, it's actually the other way around. Give him less touches and he'll stay healthy but be less productive. Give him more touches he has a chance to be more productive but he'll also risk getting hurt, which can and probably will happen. He seems to have more nicks and bruises than any other player on our team, and those bruises are usually more severe.

The Texans don't need another QB. That would make us take longer to build this team up again, and I'm sure we don't want to see 3 more years of losing seasons. I say trade down, but if we had to choose between Reggie Bush and Vince Young, I would choose Reggie Bush. He helps our offense be much more dynamic now, helps take the pressure off Davis, and both of them can be productive immediately, not 3 down the line.

Last edited by TexanSam; 02-20-2006 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 02-20-2006   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigTEXan8
What does McNair know anyway. He complains about having a losing team, yet he stood by four 4 years watching his QB get pounded into the ground and seeing Capers run the rest of the team into the ground. Seriously, what would McNair know. Anyone on this board knows more about operations and football in general than McNair. He signs checks, and has yet to prove otherwise.

One thing is for sure, McNair upgraded our coaching staff after a miserable yr. You must admit, for an expansion team they were moving along as planned. Until this yr. Changes were made, in the coaching ranks, and upgraded by leaps and bounds IMO. The coaching staff we had was horrible. We now have young, aggressive coaches. I like that. We will now have a more aggressive defense and hopefully offense. We all learn from our mistakes, so will he. Only decision i don't agree with, is him keeping CC. Reeves could do a better job than what CC has done, should have given him the job.
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Old 02-20-2006   #9
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Originally Posted by Koolbrz
One thing is for sure, McNair upgraded our coaching staff after a miserable yr. You must admit, for an expansion team they were moving along as planned. Until this yr. Changes were made, in the coaching ranks, and upgraded by leaps and bounds IMO. The coaching staff we had was horrible. We now have young, aggressive coaches. I like that. We will now have a more aggressive defense and hopefully offense. We all learn from our mistakes, so will he. Only decision i don't agree with, is him keeping CC. Reeves could do a better job than what CC has done, should have given him the job.
You know what...I will give McNair props for that. Even though he couldn't walk five feet without someone probably telling him, "Get Kubiak!!"
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Old 02-20-2006   #10
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Originally Posted by bigTEXan8
You know what...I will give McNair props for that. Even though he couldn't walk five feet without someone probably telling him, "Get Kubiak!!"

It's okay. I don't care if he couldn't walk 3 ft. without someone telling him to get Kubiak. The point is that he did. Which makes our team better. He is at the very least doing something about the situation.
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Old 02-20-2006   #11
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I just hope the front office goes aggressively after F/A market. A corner and one of the OL mentioned in other recent threads added to a good draft can put this team on right track.
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Old 02-20-2006   #12
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Originally Posted by Meloy
I just hope the front office goes aggressively after F/A market. A corner and one of the OL mentioned in other recent threads added to a good draft can put this team on right track.

I believe they will. They must jump on these guys from day one. Not wait to be 1 mth. into the FA market before signing someone. They will have slim pickins by then.
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Old 02-20-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Texan
The SESupergenius Speaks before the Team does, ANd seems to know more than Bob McNair, Amazing
Want to put an avatar bet on it Joe "Holier than thou" Texan?

I think that signing Carr speaks for itself and the Team. I'll be looking for you after the 1st pick in the draft.
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Old 02-20-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigTEXan8
What does McNair know anyway. He complains about having a losing team, yet he stood by four 4 years watching his QB get pounded into the ground and seeing Capers run the rest of the team into the ground. Seriously, what would McNair know. Anyone on this board knows more about operations and football in general than McNair. He signs checks, and has yet to prove otherwise.
Mr. McNair complains about a losing team? When?

What does Mr. McNair know...other than how to become a billionaire from nothing, convince the NFL to put in a new team in Houston instead of LA, how to put together financing for $700 million to buy a team, and be a major part of building the first retractable roof football stadium.

And let's see, he promised Houston sports fans that he wouldn't be a meddling owner, but would instead hire football men to run the operations. And when they failed, fire them and hire an entire new coaching staff.

yeah, this board knows more than Mr. McNair....yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiight. And that's why everyone on this board works for someone other than a professional football team.
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Old 02-20-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Barrel
Mr. McNair complains about losing team? When?

What does Mr. McNair know...other than how to become a billionaire from nothing, convince the NFL to put in a new team in Houston instead of LA, how to put together financing for $700 million to buy a team, and be a major part of building the first retractable roof football stadium.

And let's see, he promise Houston sports fans that he wouldn't be a meddling owner, but would instead hire football men to run the operations. And when they failed, fire them and hire an entire new coaching staff.

yeah, this board knows more than Mr. McNair....yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiight. And that's why everyone on this board works for someone other than a professional football team.
I wasn't even going to dignify such a stupid comment with a response (the post you were quoting, not you) ... but thanks for saving me the effort.
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Old 02-20-2006   #16
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Originally Posted by jerek
SSDD.

Congratulations on repeating the reigning pro-Vince argument verbatim.

"... David Carr would fetch lots in a trade, Vince could and likely will live up all of the hype, surefire, hard worker, fan icon, etc. etc. ..."

Same argument, same problems. Carr isn't cheap, will cost us a small fortune to trade this season, isn't likely to fetch much of consequence as he is still relatively unproven. Vince is still a somewhat-project, will cost us a large fortune (~55M), and is at best a debatably moderate upgrade to a position we are already decent in and committed to contract-wise. Meanwhile we were 2-14 last year (due in large part to coaching, IMO, which we have rectified, but still ...) and we have a lot of ground to cover in this offseason.

If we didn't have a salary cap ...

If we didn't have David Carr on a 3-year, bonus-heavy contract ...

If we didn't have multiple other, far more pressing needs ...

If we couldn't trade this pick or better utilize it to add to this team now ...

Then yes, draft Vince Young. But the problem is, we do have a salary cap, we do have David Carr, we do have other, far more pressing needs, and we can use the pick better somewhere else.

I have stated it a million times, I think Vince will be a good NFL player. But the logistics of the situation - specifically, the Texans situation - dictate he will be a good player somewhere else.

Costs too much (real and opportunity cost) for not enough gain.

First off, what price are you going to put on having a successful team and building a franchise that is actually respected around the league? How much do you think that is worth to McNair? Believe me, it is much more worth it to him to have the players in place to elevate this team out of NFL purgatory and put butts in Reliant stadium seats, regardless of whether he has to blow up the cap to do so. And interestingly enough, there is a chance the salary cap may be suspended if a new collective bargaining agreement can not be reached by March 3, although all the ramifications this could hold are not yet clear. Whatever the case, to not draft a player who you think could be great and plays what is widley considered the most important position on the field (obviously this is what the FO believes, as they already drafted a QB #1) because you already have another guy playing there, will inevitably blow up in your face and prove to be your ultimate regret. All arguments about Bush helping more, or needing multiple players are meritous, but to argue against a guy on financial grounds (when it applies to the prime position on the team) is highly dubious...

BTW...the "you" is not personally you, but anybody sitting in the FO who might share that sentiment...
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Old 02-20-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meloy
I just hope the front office goes aggressively after F/A market. A corner and one of the OL mentioned in other recent threads added to a good draft can put this team on right track.

They won't be able to, and neither will any other team for that matter until the CBA is determined...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...2-20-cba_x.htm
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Old 02-20-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Texan
The SESupergenius Speaks before the Team does, ANd seems to know more than Bob McNair, Amazing
Unfortunately, SES is most likely speaking the truth and Bob McNair is blowing smoke up you skirt. Once the option contract was executed, the probability of Vince Young landing in a Texans uniform dropped to about 5-10% (IMHO). It just doesn't make sense for the Texans to take that kind of hit to the cap for trade bait.

Actually, I don't think its Bob thatís blowing smoke these days, its Charlie. IMNSHO, having heard/seen Charlie on 610 and ESPN, that Charlie is a rat fink of the highest proportion. I don't know if it was Bob or Dan that got a tail shine from this guy, but someone had too for Charlie to survive last years 2-14 record.

I just hope that Vince signs a three year deal with the Titans.
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Old 02-20-2006   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big B Texan Fan
Usually it's the fans deciding if there is a QB controversy. By the way I see it, we've had one since the Browns game 2 seasons ago. When he was booed like the dickens when he was coming back onto the field after he took a play or two off due to some sort of injury, yea. People were booing Carr off the field once the game was over saying things like you suck and etc...

That's when he vehemently went to the coaching staff and demanded a change and he got it. Only problem was he wasn't smart enough QB passing wise to pull off the new system in the pre-season so they botched it and went back to the old system yet to no avail it failed as well. So now he has failed at two different system (look for the open receiver down field and the dink and dunk ((passes to running back don't count)) 2-3 step drop). Now we just had a 2-14 season and everyone else got the blame except for him. I mean for crying out loud, he's 2 commercials w/ Clemons referencing the fact that he's sack prone, that **** ain't funny. Not to mention he was sacked 32 times in his senior season, that's kinda steep if you consider VY and Leinert had less than 20 combined.

Bottom line there is QB controversy, whether it's the traditional kind where you have a vialble back-up or that the guy sux that bad where a change, any change is needed.
I think the point is that you can't really have a QB controversy without a #2 QB on the roster that the fans think should be the #1...we don't and as SES correctly pointed out...that is not going to change anytime soon. IMO, the final bullet on this thread was shot by Kubiak who by his comments and the actions of the FO said that they are going to bet on DC getting the job done. Obviously, it is fair and to some maybe even fun to passionately disagree with that decision but really we all should start getting used to the idea that the big moves that the Texans will be making will be elsewhere on the team.
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Old 02-20-2006   #20
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Originally Posted by jerek
Same argument, same problems. Carr isn't cheap, will cost us a small fortune to trade this season, isn't likely to fetch much of consequence as he is still relatively unproven. Vince is still a somewhat-project, will cost us a large fortune (~55M), and is at best a debatably moderate upgrade to a position we are already decent in and committed to contract-wise. Meanwhile we were 2-14 last year (due in large part to coaching, IMO, which we have rectified, but still ...) and we have a lot of ground to cover in this offseason.

If we didn't have a salary cap ...

If we didn't have David Carr on a 3-year, bonus-heavy contract ...

If we didn't have multiple other, far more pressing needs ...

If we couldn't trade this pick or better utilize it to add to this team now ...

Then yes, draft Vince Young. But the problem is, we do have a salary cap, we do have David Carr, we do have other, far more pressing needs, and we can use the pick better somewhere else.

I have stated it a million times, I think Vince will be a good NFL player. But the logistics of the situation - specifically, the Texans situation - dictate he will be a good player somewhere else.

Costs too much (real and opportunity cost) for not enough gain.
(a) I'm not sure Carr wouldn't bring a good price, since you and others have elsewhere said how many coaches and GMs think highly of him.

(b) I don't think VY will cost of $55M in guaranteed money.

(c) I do believe the Texans have plenty of money under the cap and can arrange for more with cuts and renegotiations. The actual cash we'll be out if trading Carr means nothing, of course, except its effect on the cap.

(d) The Carr trade is to make up for the lost draft picks from not trading the 1st pick--so maybe you get a low first round and a player or a high 2nd and a player.


I actually think we SHOULD trade the first pick, too, and see if we can manage to do it while arranging to be wherever Vince Young is going to fall if he falls, as he seems to be doing now. Fourth or sixth is my guess.
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