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Old 02-13-2006   #1
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Default What would make Vince a great QB in the NFL?

I know about his leadership skills and running skills. but what separates Vince from everyone else? just curious..

me..
Leadership.. guys around him believe in him
running.. when the pocket breaks down, he can run..

what else? touch on short passes??? cannon for an arm? what?

Also.. what gets neutralized at the NFL level ?

I'll say Vince has to sit on the bench until he learns the pro game.. the zone read won't work in the NFL.. if running QB's were the norm.. Nebraska would have cornered the market long time ago

Last edited by Wolf; 02-13-2006 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 02-13-2006   #2
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well first thing that seperates him from everyone else is obviously his athletic abilities.

to be 6'5 235 lbs and run a 4.4 is pretty much unheard of. He is as fast as most DB's and as big as most lb's. He doesn't take hard hits and has amazing vision when running.

the thing that REALLY seperates him from all the other running qb's is that his passing has improved tremendously. He had a qb rating higher thna leinart, throwing for 3000 yards & 26 td's while playing just 1 half in all but 3 games.

there has never been a qb who has passed for 2500 and run for 1000. vince passed for 3000 and ran for 1000, setting a mark that might not be broken any time soon.

He has great touch on his long ball, and has a strong arm. he can make the throws.

he will need work on his footwork. he often makes throws off balance across his body relying solely on his arm and not on his body. he sometimes tries to do too much and forces balls when he shouldnt.

in the nfl i can see his passing being less successful right away, but the same can be said for every qb who has ever gone in the nfl. but i honestly don't think his running will be neutralized any, his size/speed combo is insane.
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Old 02-13-2006   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo3883
well first thing that seperates him from everyone else is obviously his athletic abilities.

1. to be 6'5 235 lbs and run a 4.4 is pretty much unheard of. He is as fast as most DB's and as big as most lb's. He doesn't take hard hits and has amazing vision when running.


2. the thing that REALLY seperates him from all the other running qb's is that his passing has improved tremendously. He had a qb rating higher thna leinart, throwing for 3000 yards & 26 td's while playing just 1 half in all but 3 games.
Your post in implying he is a better passer than Leinart. That is a little misleading.

3. there has never been a qb who has passed for 2500 and run for 1000. vince passed for 3000 and ran for 1000, setting a mark that might not be broken any time soon.

4.
He has great touch on his long ball, and has a strong arm. he can make the throws.


he will need work on his footwork. he often makes throws off balance across his body relying solely on his arm and not on his body. he sometimes tries to do too much and forces balls when he shouldnt.

in the nfl i can see his passing being less successful right away, but the same can be said for every qb who has ever gone in the nfl. but i honestly don't think his running will be neutralized any, his size/speed combo is insane.
1. VY is an amazing athlete but he does not have "Unheard of" talent...in fact there was a guy drafted last year that is Taller, Bigger, Faster and known to be a HUGE play maker. Here is a quote about the guy "His combination of size and speed has scouts drooling over an athlete they call 'Freak.'"

2. Your post is implying he is a better passer than Leinart.(I am speaking strictly from a passing stand point.) That is tad bit misleading. Now this year Vince Young did have a better passer rating than Matt Leinart but not by much. Leinart has consistently put up high passer rating numbers, in is first year as a starter he put up a slightly higher Passer rating than Vince did in his best year. Lets also not forget...
- In Leinarts worst year he passed for more yards than VY did in his best year.
- In Leinarts worst year he passed for more touchdowns than VY did in his best year.
- In Leinarts worst year he passed for less interceptions than VY did in his best year.

For the Record I don't think the Texans should pick Matt Leinart.(Or any QB) But let's not sell the guy short.

3. Yes VY had an amazing year. One for the record books. He probably had more running plays designed for him than any QB in the history of college football. He is probably the best college QB at running the ball.

4. Many scouts have his arm strength at "Marginal", or "Shows decent but not good arm strength" (Matt Leinart too) He certainly doesn't have the arm strength of Cutler. From what I read he hangs his long balls a little. But I don't know.

These are the scouting quotes that scare me. These are from some of the top pro scouts.
"Does not show a good comprehension of reading defenses and making progression reads."
"Tries to force things when they are not available."
"Must learn to better protect the football."
"Takes too many chances when protection is breaking down and throws too many passes up for grabs."
"Is impatient in the pocket."
"Frequently takes off too early and does not allow his receivers enough time to separate."

My point is not to dis Vince as I could post a similar list on just about every player in the draft. I just want to drop a dose of reality since most of us can easily get caught up in Vince the "Legend" rather than Vince the "actual person".

Here is what I think will make Vince successful in the NFL.
- The guy is a natural born leader. He has a ton of poise and knows how to ralley to troops.
- A defense must respect his ability to break off a long run. The fact that he can run opens up a lot of passing opportunites for him.
- He is be very hard to game plan against as a coach.
- He is strong. If a DB is trying to sack him he can often still stay standing and get a quality pass off. (I have seen DBs hit him and just fall down like they were not expecting a QB to be as big and strong as him) But this is the NFL, things are going to be very different.



Like all QB's he will need an Offensive line that is capable of protecting him. If he gets the same poor level of protection that Carr has gotten the last FOUR years his results will be NO DIFFERENT than Carrs were. No QB or team for that matter is successful with a pathetic O-line.
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Old 02-13-2006   #4
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LBC, I agree with about everything you said, well done.
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Old 02-14-2006   #5
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Leinart's last game he threw for more ints then Vince..Vince flat out played that whole team.Mater of fact Vince out played everyone in college football the last 17 games.You know if the Texans draft young all the sports gurus are going to put him down.They will say he was the wrong pick and give rookie of the year to Bush.You guys better take Bush for all the spurt.

The answer is for the team that really wants him to get him.

I don't really think the Texans want Vince Young.I think if they want someone else it would be stupid to take Vince.

Last edited by BlueThunder; 02-14-2006 at 02:12 AM.
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Old 02-14-2006   #6
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What would make him great is his leadership and poise. Take a look at the other all-time greats and that's the first two characteristics that come up. Everything else mentioned is second fiddle because the all-timers didn't share the other characteristics.

Montana didn't have great arm strength.
Marino didn't have great mobility.
Elway didn't have much touch on the ball.
Etc.

Having all the physical tools is simply not enough (see Jeff George, Ryan Leaf, etc.) or even required. But there's no question that Vince has the two most important aspects.
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Old 02-14-2006   #7
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11 of the past 15 years Super Bowl winning QB's all had great vision and poise and leadership:

T. Brady
T. Aikman
B. R-berger
S. Young
P. Simms
J. Montana
J. Elway
B. Favre

The 4 in question are T. Dilfer, B. Johnson, K. Warner, M. Rypien:

T. Dilfer since his D was possibly the best ever and that the offense didn't score very much. Actually had a 2-3 game stretch where they had no TD's. I don't even think he was the starter the whole season.

B. Johnson had good vision and good leadership but also had one of the great D's our generation. That D won alot of games for them. B. Johnson was pretty much mistake free and that was his claim to fame that season.

K. Warner had all the right peices in place as well as a Mad-Man for an O-coodinator. Bush reminds of Faulk. Holt and Bruce are both great receivers and that had alot to with it. He had good leadeship though with exceptional vision but went it went away it went away fast. Reminds me of movies where some ***** made a deal with the devil.

M. Rypien I'm unsure of. I don't remember anything about that SB. Someone fill me in if they deem it neccassary.

Of the 11 above, 9 of them got their teams to multiple Super Bowls. Of the 4 only 1 got his to multiple appearances (K. Warner)

It doesn't matter where you get the guy, if they have that particular intangible then you must take him when you have the chance, whether it's FA, Draft, trade, from the Canadian league, wherever.....

Morale of the story is the 11 were on good teams where they lead the offense to score points and kept the pressure off of the D. And the 4 were on a team that either had a freaky good D or all the right pieces in place in order to help their marginal palymakin' look exceptional for a season.
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Old 02-14-2006   #8
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His ability to run the spread offense in the NFL....damn nevermind
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Old 02-14-2006   #9
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Ya know Frills, VY said they basically run the colts offense. Now I find that hard to believe, but they're not running the spread all the time. Maybe the routes and formations are that of the colts but on designed QB runs and options it's the spread. It just appears like the spread when he finds no open receivers and scrambles but he has superior scramblin' ability so it appears like they're runnung the spread all the time.
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Old 02-14-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueThunder
Leinart's last game he threw for more ints then Vince..Vince flat out played that whole team.Mater of fact Vince out played everyone in college football the last 17 games.You know if the Texans draft young all the sports gurus are going to put him down.They will say he was the wrong pick and give rookie of the year to Bush.You guys better take Bush for all the spurt.

The answer is for the team that really wants him to get him.

I don't really think the Texans want Vince Young.I think if they want someone else it would be stupid to take Vince.
Now you're getting the idea.
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Old 02-14-2006   #11
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They ran a similar offense that OU ran in 2000 when they won. Stoops came to OU didn't have a ton of takent, got a JuCo QB and ran the spread which compensates for the talent deficiency. Over the past few years now that they are getting more talent, its evolved into a more pro style.

To claim that its the Colt's offense is a joke.

The spread UT ran made it simple for Vince to read coverages, they tried running a pro style offense, VY couldn't understand it and make the reads so Mack dumbed it down into a spread.
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Old 02-14-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorKnolle
Now you're getting the idea.
Yep, I agree too. At least we'll get to see him in our endzone two games a year, in a Titans uniform. Imagine how motivated he will be to face us, every year. I wonder if the Texans will ever beat the Titans in the next 10 years if he goes there?
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Old 02-14-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long-Spurs-Texan
Yep, I agree too. At least we'll get to see him in our endzone two games a year, in a Titans uniform. Imagine how motivated he will be to face us, every year. I wonder if the Texans will ever beat the Titans in the next 10 years if he goes there?

Sure when he thinks he can run in the NFL like he does against Baylor...He'll play in 12-14 games each season but have to sit due to some nagging injury, look at Vick.

Face it, the only good defense he played was Ohio State which was very overrated when they faced off. The big 12 was horrible this year, and the USC defense was a joke.
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Old 02-14-2006   #14
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I can't wait to see his skill set at the professional level and where his upside levels out at. He is what Clyde Drexler would look like playing QB. It will be fun to watch his career as there really is nobody like him. I think he is going to be a superstar and all he needs is time to learn.
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Old 02-14-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frills
Sure when he thinks he can run in the NFL like he does against Baylor...He'll play in 12-14 games each season but have to sit due to some nagging injury, look at Vick.

Face it, the only good defense he played was Ohio State which was very overrated when they faced off. The big 12 was horrible this year, and the USC defense was a joke.
ha ha ha.......(louder) ha ha ha ha
You could say this all the QB's. Carr/Leinert/vick/Young.....any of them have a naggin' injury or 2 in their career. One thing to note is that VY hasn't experienced any type of injury that forced him to miss any action.

Just in case you forgot, 99% of all NFL players come from the NCAA whether or not their conference had a down year or not. And the Big 12 was not horrible, but since you brought it up, so was the Pac-10, Big 10 and the ACC. Actually the only conference worth a crap is the SEC.Do you believe we should only take players from there and there only?
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Old 02-14-2006   #16
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Before this year, VY "Couldn't win the big one"

UT fans were calling for his job, to the extent that if he didn't win vs OU there was national talk about his job security.

I'll take a proven commodity over the past 2 seasons versus another who had a great season versus average competition.
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Old 02-14-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Long-Spurs-Texan
Yep, I agree too. At least we'll get to see him in our endzone two games a year, in a Titans uniform. Imagine how motivated he will be to face us, every year. I wonder if the Texans will ever beat the Titans in the next 10 years if he goes there?
As long as Kubes takes care of his business and constructs this team with some good players and coaches them well then I'm not worried about having to face any divisional opponent. I don't expect to win them all but I'm not going to stress out about them either. Tennessee was barely a better team than us this year, they have another offseason in which they're going to have to make a lot of moves and clear up a whole lot of cap room, so I'm not at all worried about Vince making that big of an impact there in the near future (I doubt he plays next year anyways), meanwhile we are in an excellent position to start building this team around our new head coach and systems while Tennessee will be a year or two behind us in the rebuilding process, so I think we have the upper hand there. I think Indy has finally hit their peak and could be starting the declining part of their team's cycle as their good players are getting old and expensive and they will have to start shuffling guys around a lot in the next couple years, so I think in a couple years we could be overtaking them. Jacksonville is the only team that I would say I'm even close to worrying about over the span of the next 4-5 years (obviously we won't be able to hang with the Colts this coming season or maybe even the next, but the time is coming).
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Old 02-14-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frills
Sure when he thinks he can run in the NFL like he does against Baylor...He'll play in 12-14 games each season but have to sit due to some nagging injury, look at Vick.

Face it, the only good defense he played was Ohio State which was very overrated when they faced off. The big 12 was horrible this year, and the USC defense was a joke.
LOL, Baylor Defense - Big 12 = Texans Defense - AFC! My point was against US!

Ohio State had an awesome D (3 NFL LB's with an entire offseason to gameplan for Vince), and the USC team was being called one of the top 2-3 teams in the HISTORY of College FB by anyone with a microphone. Give it a rest.
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Old 02-14-2006   #19
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Everyone knew before the Rose Bowl that it was going to be a Shootout, the o/u was in the high 70's low 80's

A total that high isn't giving credit to either defense.
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Old 02-14-2006   #20
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I posted this in the Bush thread, so I'll give my opinions on Vince. There are two aspects of this that people have posted on: 1) What about Vince gives him the potential to be an elite QB in the NFL? and 2) What else does Vince require in order to become this elite QB? Here's my attempted take on both those parts (please pardon the length, but this is all the info I could think about it, so if you want my opinion on him, here it is, and FYI this is a mixture of my opinion and my couple scout friends' opinions).

1) POSITIVES: Vince Young has good size for an NFL QB. Being 6'5" is a great height for a QB, and 230-235 lbs. is a pretty solid build too, nothing overly dominating in terms of strength but definitely not bad either. Vince has great mobility for a QB, especially one of his size. In college he was able to take over games with his mobility, which won't happen anywhere near as much in the NFL, but it does give him an additional aspect of his offensive game that defenses will have to worry about (he is not going to run away from any NFL DBs or even most LBs though, again in terms of Madden for those of you who think that way, he will probably have 83-85 speed, 72-75 agility, and 75-78 acceleration, not as fast as Vick but definitely one of the top couple QBs in the NFL). Vince has a decently strong arm, albeit a funny release (I'll get to that in the negatives). He has displayed great leadership in the college game and an ability to improve the play of others around him and lead his team to victory. How well that ability translates over into the NFL is yet to be seen, and similarly when he'll be given that opportunity to become a leader and take over and how well he'll respond to that call is yet to be see (he won't immediately inspire his teammates as a rookie sitting on the bench, so don't bring that argument). He is generally a pretty heady player, he doesn't always recognize defenses and make the correct read/play, but you can generally tell he's at least thinking about it rather than losing poise, ducking, and running with the ball like Michael Vick.

NEGATIVES: Vince does not have an NFL-ready throw. His throwing motion is a little funky and he tends to float balls that are thrown down field (somewhat a given trait of a sidearm throw). Some people say this can easily be fixed, but at the same time other QBs in the NFL with funky releases haven't magically fixed their's in half a season, but many of them can deal with their different throwing style anyways. Vince frequently doesn't set his feet and put his body into his throws, many times he is throwing off balance or otherwise doesn't support his throw, which takes some zip off of it and will leave balls floating out there. He does not have great arm strength to make great throws downfield with top accuracy, many of his balls are floated out there and underthrown/overthrown. Many times in college he could get away with it because he had nice WRs that came back and made plays on the ball (see Fitzgerald's catch in the Pro-Bowl from Vick's desperation throw), but that generally won't work in a real NFL game. He hasn't shown the ability to throw out routes very well, everything has been over the middle. His ability to read defenses has been questioned, he frequently makes appropriate checks pretty well (many, not all, of his "great decisions and good throws" in the Rose Bowl were to unguarded players, go watch game tape again on it if you want) but still does not read defenses as well as others and will try to force plays when nothing is there. He does not have much experience playing under center or running a pro-style offense (many college QBs don't run pro offenses, but for argument's sake Leinart ran something very close to one and did a very good job at it for three years). Most rookies (especially QBs) don't make an immediate impact in the NFL, and many people say Vince will require some extra time before he's ready.

2) Some additional things Vince will need to become a dominant QB in the NFL. Vince will need appropriate time to improve his personal skills/techniques to be ready for the NFL. I don't see him being able to come in and do much in his first season, maybe his first two seasons. He will need time to learn the NFL game, figure out when he can/shouldn't run, read defenses better, and adjust himself to the game. He will need a solid OLine around him to be effective (every QB does), he won't be able to put up magical numbers and go to the Super Bowl with a bad OLine. He had a great OLine at UT which gave him good blocking, a ton of time to make his reads and throw the ball, and kept lanes open for him to run from the pocket if he chose to do so. He will need some pretty good WRs around him (this always helps QBs), but aside from the obvious I think many QBs are hindered by not having a certain type of receivers for him, guys that can run routes and get the separation for the QB to get the ball in there, and then make adjustments and catch the ball if it's thrown a little off (a lot of this is in the coaching too). I think this has been part of Michael Vick's problem while other guys (Manning and his WRs) do this very well and help their QB out. Vince will need good coaching to get his skills up, but he'll likely also need to have his team adjust its offensive scheme for him, running QBs generally do, and if he's truly that rare and special of a talent then they might have to come up with a totally new system for him like the Falcons tried to do with Vick, and then it becomes an issue of whether or not they can create an appropriate system that works for him, the rest of his offensive teammates, and the backup QB in case something happens to Vince.

Vince by all indications should be a good NFL QB. I don't see the guaranteed legend or guaranteed star QB in him that many other people do, I think he has the potential to be great but a lot of things have to happen for that potential to be realized. I personally don't think he adds much if anything more to this offense than what Carr can bring, and my personal preference on QB style is more of what I see Carr being as opposed to what I see Vince being. If this was Madden I'd likely take Vince in a heartbeat because speed kills on that game (Bush makes a strong case on this too) and every other aspect of their game can be easily improved or is directly controlled by you, but that isn't how it works in the NFL. I see a lot of work that needs to be done on him, and I think Carr is a solid QB, so I don't like using a #1 pick and all that money on what I consider to be a project at QB or an "insurance plan". I think that pick and that money can be better used on adding more talent to the team at positions that we need help at and improve the rest of the team around the guys that I consider to be our current young stars (stars used for lack of a better term, maybe not studs right now but guys that have the ability to be studs and are solid guys that should play on this team: David Carr, Domanick Davis, Andre Johnson, Jerome Mathis?, Chester Pitts, Dunta Robinson). If it was a matter of signing Vince as a free agent without having to give up on adding another talented player with the #1 pick then I'd be much more open to picking him up as our insurance policy at QB, but I would rather get that impact player that adds to our core (Bush on offense) or specifically addresses a key need with a stud (Mario). Would you rather upgrade QBs from David Carr to Vince Young (in my mind not any of a current upgrade, maybe a potential upgrade in the future) or at DE from Jason Babin to Mario Williams while adding more picks and costing less money? To me that's a no-brainer.

Last edited by MorKnolle; 02-14-2006 at 11:58 AM.
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