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Old 02-07-2006   #1
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Default A nice analysis of SB O-lines.

This is from NFL.com by Gregg Easterbrook. We should pay attention:

Why are the Pittsburgh and Seattle offensive lines so good? One reason is seven of the 10 were originally drafted by their teams. Four of five players on both offensive lines have been starting together for four years, meaning they know each other's moves. Offensive line moves are more important than spectators realize: think of Tobeck turning the wrong way. Teams seeking success ought to follow the Pittsburgh and Seattle offensive line model -- invest draft choices in blockers, then keep them together as a unit for an extended period.
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Old 02-08-2006   #2
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jeff hartings - rd 1, pick 23 (detroit)
alan faneca - rd 1, pick 26 (pitt)
marvel smith - rd 2, pick 38 (pitt)
max starks - rd 3, pick 75 (pitt)
kendall simmons - rd 1, pick 30 (pitt)

steve hutchinson - rd 1, pick 17 (seattle)
walter jones - rd 1, pick 6 (seattle)
chris gray - rd 5, pick 132 (miami)
robbie tobeck - undrafted (signed by atlanta)
sean locklear - rd 3, pick 84 (seattle)


i hope we learn to draft like that one of these days. "weapons" & "game breakers" are nice, but they dont do anything without the big uglies winning their battle. between both teams, only two offensive skill position players have been taken in the first round ... sean alexander & ben roethlisberger. i read somewhere (probably that article) that alan faneca should've been front runner for MVP and i find it hard to disagree. draft linemen first, load up on defense, and mix in a few skill position guys as needed. unless of course we'd rather be the lions, drafting the "best player EVER!!!!!" year after year.
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Old 02-08-2006   #3
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Good stuff Edo and Scooter. These threads that make sense usually do not get a lot of attention.
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Old 02-08-2006   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter
jeff hartings - rd 1, pick 23 (detroit)
alan faneca - rd 1, pick 26 (pitt)
marvel smith - rd 2, pick 38 (pitt)
max starks - rd 3, pick 75 (pitt)
kendall simmons - rd 1, pick 30 (pitt)

steve hutchinson - rd 1, pick 17 (seattle)
walter jones - rd 1, pick 6 (seattle)
chris gray - rd 5, pick 132 (miami)
robbie tobeck - undrafted (signed by atlanta)
sean locklear - rd 3, pick 84 (seattle)


i hope we learn to draft like that one of these days. "weapons" & "game breakers" are nice, but they dont do anything without the big uglies winning their battle. between both teams, only two offensive skill position players have been taken in the first round ... sean alexander & ben roethlisberger. i read somewhere (probably that article) that alan faneca should've been front runner for MVP and i find it hard to disagree. draft linemen first, load up on defense, and mix in a few skill position guys as needed. unless of course we'd rather be the lions, drafting the "best player EVER!!!!!" year after year.
But dude don't you know all of Denver's line was taken after the 165th pick overall except one 1st rounder and since Kubes ids coming here, we won't need to spend our first day picks on linemen.

My first day
1)Reggie Bush-DD won't take all the punishment
2)Sinorice Moss-the #2 we've been waiting for
3A)Dominique Byrd-Finally a play making TE
3B)Skyler Green-A steal at this point the man can flat out fly

We really don't need any linemen since FA has some decent guys plus I am sure we are about to gel.

4)Michael Robinson-falls to second day can play WR,QB,RB,CB,S and return if Mathis gets hurt. Keeps Green and Mathis on top of their forty.
5)Reggie Mcneal-flier QB also can do reverses with Robinson ala Randel El/Ward
6)Fastest Man available-hopefully a slash type to prototype next year's talent
7)Scott Frost-grab him before he heads to Canada I firmly believe he is a true QB/S convert he essentially revolutionized this theory.

Now imagine the possibilities we could control the clock with 20-25 second trick plays that allow close to 45-50 minutes of the clock control to assure we don't need to draft defense either.
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Old 02-08-2006   #5
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Wow the fact that you did not put the sarcasm sign on this almost threw me off till you got to the end. Nice you had me going there preach. Denver will also be looking for some top OLs though in this draft, because as many Broncos fans have stated they run well, but dont pass block overly well.
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Old 02-08-2006   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadahnic
because as many Broncos fans have stated they run well, but dont pass block overly well.
Brings up a question. How many zone blocking teams have been in the top 10 in the passing game? I ask because size does matter with blocking schemes.

I do not know the answer, just looking for thoughts.
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Old 02-08-2006   #7
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Well the Broncos were during the Elway years were up there I am pretty sure, but other than that I cannot really remember any. I know the Packers used it for a bit as did the Chargers, but I dont think either of them were up there when they used it, and they both switched back to the traditional blocking schemes. I would have to ask Coach C. because he knows more on this kinda crap, AJ or Infantry may know some also, If Vinny's seasoned wisdom would get on he may be able to shed some light.
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Old 02-08-2006   #8
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Question Who are the best five offensive lines in the NFL?

Who are the best five offensive lines in the NFL?

People talk about the Colts/Broncos/Steelers lines and how good they are. Are they the best lines in the NFL? I tried looking this up, and the whole things is kind of opaque. There are some "guidelines" (number of sacks, penalties, how well the running game goes, etc.), but I'm not seeing anything that provides a definitive ranking of lines. If anyone knows, I would love to see that info.
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Old 02-08-2006   #9
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Here is Football Outsiders' attempt to rank OL's by their system which orders them on adjusted line yards and adjusted sack rate. Take it FWIW. They do a lot of stat manipulation which IMO has lead to some pretty odd conclusions which make me question their methodology, but it is interesting.
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Old 02-08-2006   #10
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Someone email this to Casserly and Kubiak immediately.
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Old 02-08-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
Here is Football Outsiders' attempt to rank OL's by their system which orders them on adjusted line yards and adjusted sack rate. Take it FWIW. They do a lot of stat manipulation which IMO has lead to some pretty odd conclusions which make me question their methodology, but it is interesting.
Thanks.

Another link off the site for eductational purposes:
Zone Blocking vs. Man Blocking
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/200...analysis/2484/
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Old 02-08-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
Here is Football Outsiders' attempt to rank OL's by their system which orders them on adjusted line yards and adjusted sack rate. Take it FWIW. They do a lot of stat manipulation which IMO has lead to some pretty odd conclusions which make me question their methodology, but it is interesting.
So this shows that Denver was 2nd in run blocking and 7th in pass protection for 2005. It also shows Denver was 8th in run and 3rd in pass protection in 2004.

As you said, take it FWIW according to their methodology.
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Old 02-08-2006   #13
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When you break it down, just to a statistical level in this methodology, there has been quite a delta between the pass and run blocking for Atlanta and Houston that is not evident with the Broncos in 2004-2005.
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Old 02-08-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
Thanks.

Another link off the site for eductational purposes:
Zone Blocking vs. Man Blocking
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/200...analysis/2484/
When this article 1st came out, I thought these comments were telling:

Quote:
For the record, Joe Pendry claims that his zone blocking scheme doesnít rely on cut blocks. Given Davisís performance, he might want to reconsider that stance.

Third, it is possible that Davis might have had a better year if Pendry had used cut-blocking to Davisís advantage ó his distribution of runs is similar between the two years with the exception of his lack of long runs.
I would assume/hope at this point that Pendry's reluctance to implement the entirety of the Denver/Atlanta scheme exited with his departure.
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Old 02-08-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edo783
This is from NFL.com by Gregg Easterbrook. We should pay attention:

Why are the Pittsburgh and Seattle offensive lines so good? One reason is seven of the 10 were originally drafted by their teams. Four of five players on both offensive lines have been starting together for four years, meaning they know each other's moves. Offensive line moves are more important than spectators realize: think of Tobeck turning the wrong way. Teams seeking success ought to follow the Pittsburgh and Seattle offensive line model -- invest draft choices in blockers, then keep them together as a unit for an extended period.

I wonder how true this would be, if you look at the Championship teams. Denver/Pitts, Seattle/Carolina.... I wonder if those lines have more of their own picks on their line than Indy/Kansas city have on theirs.

I also wonder if this was also true for last year's SB teams, the pat's and the Eagles...

I mean just because it looks true this year, does that necessarily mean it is true??

I mean I could say both teams come from the northern part of the country. Does that mean we need to move the team to Nebraska??
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Old 02-08-2006   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Does that mean we need to move the team to Nebraska??
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :brickwall


Don't even joke about moving the team.

So, when we FINALLY get a complete O-line together, they'll need to stay together for 4 years to see their real potential.
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Old 02-08-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
I wonder how true this would be, if you look at the Championship teams. Denver/Pitts, Seattle/Carolina.... I wonder if those lines have more of their own picks on their line than Indy/Kansas city have on theirs.

I also wonder if this was also true for last year's SB teams, the pat's and the Eagles...

I mean just because it looks true this year, does that necessarily mean it is true??

I mean I could say both teams come from the northern part of the country. Does that mean we need to move the team to Nebraska??
You really need to read the whole article to get where Easterbrook is going with this.

Quote:
So what did the Super Bowl prove -- that defense trumps offense? That roughneck football trumps finesse? That a team that loses three defensive starters during a game will fade in the fourth quarter? Yours truly thinks the larger lesson of this Super Bowl is that the team that starts the most originally drafted players usually wins. Pittsburgh started 17 players that it drafted and Seattle started 10.

Sports fanatics obsess over the top of the draft -- should No. 1 be Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart or Vince Young? -- yet it is the sum of a team's drafted players that matters. Being winners, Super Bowl teams normally start a high number of originally drafted players. On Sunday, 27 of 44 starters were originally drafted by Pittsburgh or Seattle. Last February when New England beat Philadelphia in the Super Bowl, 26 of 44 starters were originally draftees of the Pats or Eagles. Pick a game between weak teams and the equation is often different. This season when Oakland played Cleveland, 15 of 44 starters were original draftees.


At first blush, starting originally drafted players may seem only to mean that a team is not wasting its draft picks -- no small consideration. But other factors are at work, including time commitments and salary-cap management. Most draftees sign for at least three years, and a three-year rookie contract is really a four-year commitment owing to the "restricted free agent" rule governing the fourth year. Restricted freedom -- what a postmodern concept! Four-year commitments mean a drafted player will be with his team a substantial chunk of time, long enough to learn the coach's system and worldview. Established veterans who move as true free agents often sign agreements that are announced as long-term deals but actually last a couple years at most. Coaches strongly prefer players committed to the team for a long period, and such commitments correlate with winning. In turn, the fact that the player knows he is committed to the team for four years gives him incentive to be team-spirited and get along with others, unlike mercenaries of the Terrell Owens ilk. And through the four years of an NFL rookie commitment, the player knows he is building up to the day he becomes a true free agent and can sign with whoever offers the largest bonus. Players working their way toward their first chance at true free agency are highly motivated.

The next reason it's important to have lots of originally drafted players is the cap. First-round choices cost a bundle, but other draftees are quite affordable in cap terms. Let me offer examples from last year's Super Bowl, because the 2005 season is not yet in the USA Today sports pay database. Last year's Super Bowl starting center for New England, Dan Koppen, a fifth-round choice, earned $340,000, well below the Patriots' median of $660,000. Having low-drafted, moderately paid but successful players such as Koppen enabled the Patriots to free up salary cap space for the $2.1 million earned by Rosevelt Colvin or the $1.7 million paid to Corey Dillon, two stars. Today the fourth- or fifth-round draft choice who starts is worth his weight in gold, because his relatively modest pay keeps the salary cap under control.

This leads to the next point, that it's successful choices from any round, not necessarily the glamorous first round, that matter. The Steelers started six originally drafted first-rounders -- plus two second-round choices, four three-round picks, four fourth-round choices and a fifth-round choice. Strong drafting below the first round was essential to Pittsburgh's success, including a Super Bowl MVP, Hines Wards, who went in the third round. But then, only three of the last 11 Super Bowl MVPs have been first-round draftees.
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Old 02-08-2006   #18
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It's not just about drafting the O-Line, it's about the value of your picks and using your young players so you have cash for a few big money FA's that can put you over the top.
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Old 02-08-2006   #19
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It seems to correlate well. I like the logic behind it, although I am not sure of the total degree of correlation.
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Old 02-08-2006   #20
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IT's a good read.... he may very well have a point, but some of his argument was based on a belief that may/maynot always be the case.... that a player is more team oriented knowing he is locked in for the term of a 4 year contract, then he says that same player is working his but off, for the big payday that is coming after the 4 years......... I just don't think those are necessarily givens. Some folks just want to win.
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