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Old 02-06-2006   #1
WILLIEG
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Default Can A QB Really Be Molded?

Just wanted to express some of my views about the whole Carr/Young thing that seems to be a part of every MB and will continue to be until draft day I suppose. I've said in the past that it doesn't really matter who we require (Young/Bush/D'brick) because any of the three will most likely become good if not great players to what ever franchise they go to. With that being said, I believe that many teams over the course of the NFL have tried to mold QB's with failing attemps in reaching the ultimate goal of winning the NFL CHAMPIONSHIP. While players like Hasselbeck, Delhomme, Gannon, O'Donnell, Humphries, and etc... have all reached the Super bowl, none have ever won it! These are all QB's that were out there to manage the game and play within a sytem. You can't compare these guys to the likes of Roethlisberger, Brady, Elway, Farve, Aikman and etc...who are natural leaders on and off the field. There's just something about these group of guys since the begining of their careers you just relized they had. The "IT" thing! All of these field generals took control of the game with such a poise that no other player could match. And if you were a teammate then your play, output , or success reached levels that were only drawn out by theses leaders who demanded nothing less. There are alot of things that you can teach in the game of football in all positions but the single most important intangilbe is leadership. I'm hoping that the Texans organization can fairly evaluate this lack of leadership in whatever phase of the game (offense/defense) and bring in or fix the most important concern that has been "that thorn in it's side". Leaders are always born and can never be created to be something they aren't. Real Recognize Real, and I believe that whatever G. Kubiak and the front office decide it will be a testament or direct reflection of the overall quality of just how this entire organization is being lead.

Last edited by WILLIEG; 02-06-2006 at 03:11 PM. Reason: typo on title
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Old 02-06-2006   #2
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Real Recognize Real, and I believe that whatever G. Kubiak and the front office decide it will be a testament or direct reflection of the overall quality of just how this entire organization is being lead.
I believe Kubiak's Real. He must recognize something in Carr if he's got that much confidence in him. Let's give the new regime a chance to show their smarts and then make an educated guess.
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Old 02-06-2006   #3
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Originally Posted by WILLIEG
Leaders are always born and can never be created to be something they aren't.
"Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile."
-Vince Lombardi

"Leadership rests not only upon ability, not only upon capacity; having the capacity to lead is not enough. The leader must be willing to use it. His leadership is then based on truth and character. There must be truth in the purpose and will power in the character."
-Vince Lombardi

Just a few thoughts....while this was Lombardi's opinion and not necessarily gospel, I would think that he knows a little more about the issue than you or I.
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Old 02-06-2006   #4
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Originally Posted by AustinJB
"Leaders are made, they are not born. They are made by hard effort, which is the price which all of us must pay to achieve any goal that is worthwhile."
-Vince Lombardi
While I know it would be best if Carr were thought of as the unquestioned leader of the Texans, I believe this leadership thing is a bit overblown. John McClain (aka VY's publicist) made the comment on Friday's 610 show, and I'm paraphrasing here, that Carr had the smarts, physical ability, toughness, but wasn't a leader and had never put the team on his back ....

ok fair enough but what 1 NFL player ever has?

if this were the NBA I'd say Jordan, Bird, Magic...

if it was the NHL, i'd say Gretzky, Patrick Roy, ...

if it was MLB then Barry Bonds, Orel Hershiser, ....

I believe that the Ravens from a few years back and the 85 Bears, ... defensive units "put the team on their backs" .... but 1 single player? Montana? Favre? ESmith? JBrown?

if there's one example of a QB "taking a team on his back" it's VY in the Rose Bowl and it still took a late defensive stand to make it possible ... NFL football is such a team-based entity that I can't get my mind around this argument ...
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Old 02-06-2006   #5
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I would define a Winner as someone throughtout the history of his carrer has in some way gotten the job done and has a majorityof wins when compared to looses. Can a Winner loose and still be considered a winner? Sure ex: Farve and Elway. But can a Looser win and be considered a winner? No, ex; T. Dilfer, B. Johnson.
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Old 02-06-2006   #6
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Originally Posted by chuckm
While I know it would be best if Carr were thought of as the unquestioned leader of the Texans, I believe this leadership thing is a bit overblown. John McClain (aka VY's publicist) made the comment on Friday's 610 show, and I'm paraphrasing here, that Carr had the smarts, physical ability, toughness, but wasn't a leader and had never put the team on his back ....

ok fair enough but what 1 NFL player ever has?

if this were the NBA I'd say Jordan, Bird, Magic...

if it was the NHL, i'd say Gretzky, Patrick Roy, ...

if it was MLB then Barry Bonds, Orel Hershiser, ....

I believe that the Ravens from a few years back and the 85 Bears, ... defensive units "put the team on their backs" .... but 1 single player? Montana? Favre? ESmith? JBrown?

if there's one example of a QB "taking a team on his back" it's VY in the Rose Bowl and it still took a late defensive stand to make it possible ... NFL football is such a team-based entity that I can't get my mind around this argument ...
If you think in terms of salary cap it makes the conversation more palatable.

I will bet anyone a million virtual dollars that if Carr's contract is extended and we select Bush we will not win a playoff game in the next three years. You need fiscal balance to be play for a championship. This is not hate, this is the prospective state of the business.
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Old 02-06-2006   #7
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I assume that you believe leadership is part of the package when your team picks someone 1st overall . If not then is that something you identify before you pick him ?
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Old 02-06-2006   #8
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If you think in terms of salary cap it makes the conversation more palatable.

I will bet anyone a million virtual dollars that if Carr's contract is extended and we select Bush we will not win a playoff game in the next three years. You need fiscal balance to be play for a championship. This is not hate, this is the prospective state of the business.

hmmm ok, but unless it went right over my head, it doesn't apply to what I wrote ...
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Old 02-06-2006   #9
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Leadership is just one part of the overall picture but it is an imoprtant part to be considered. Much like in the NBA, most top draft picks are from colleges that have reached the final four and are players that bring a quality that isn't possed by many other teams.
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Old 02-06-2006   #10
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Originally Posted by chuckm
hmmm ok, but unless it went right over my head, it doesn't apply to what I wrote ...
You questioned one player making a difference and spoke to the NFL being a team game. I agree when you look at it from a fiscal standpoint.
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Old 02-06-2006   #11
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Can we, just for argument's sake, assume the previous coaching staff might have something to do with the apparent lack of leadership qualities ANYONE might or might not have tried to assert over this team. If you can't coach God given natural talent, then how can you even begin to coach something as elusive as leadership skills. Leaders are made...although you have to have a desire to be in that capacilty. That should be figured out very shortly once the present staff has a chance to do an evaluation of not only physical but mental skills as well. IMHO
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Old 02-06-2006   #12
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Originally Posted by chuckm
While I know it would be best if Carr were thought of as the unquestioned leader of the Texans, I believe this leadership thing is a bit overblown. John McClain (aka VY's publicist) made the comment on Friday's 610 show, and I'm paraphrasing here, that Carr had the smarts, physical ability, toughness, but wasn't a leader and had never put the team on his back ....

ok fair enough but what 1 NFL player ever has?

if this were the NBA I'd say Jordan, Bird, Magic...

if it was the NHL, i'd say Gretzky, Patrick Roy, ...

if it was MLB then Barry Bonds, Orel Hershiser, ....

I believe that the Ravens from a few years back and the 85 Bears, ... defensive units "put the team on their backs" .... but 1 single player? Montana? Favre? ESmith? JBrown?

if there's one example of a QB "taking a team on his back" it's VY in the Rose Bowl and it still took a late defensive stand to make it possible ... NFL football is such a team-based entity that I can't get my mind around this argument ...
I think that you and others are reading too much into the "put the team on their backs" phrase...you're taking it too literally. For example, VY didn't win the RB completely by himself, but he was the MVP....he did "more" to help his team win than anyone else did. Hines Ward didn't win the Super Bowl by himself, but he was the MVP....HE did "more" to help his team win than anybody else. You take those two players away from their respective teams and more than likely, they would not have won. Of course this all objective.

Also, as far as the leadership and "it" factor is concerned, it has a lot to do w/ how the team and teammates respond to that one player...and to an extent the fans as well. The 49ers KNEW that if Montana had the ball in his hands when the game was on the line, he would come through for them...I dare say that the fans felt this way too. The same can be said for Favre (not this year of course), Aikman, etc. I realize that a lot of this is based upon their past accomplishments, but it is that leadership quality and aura about them that causes their teammates to have this confidence in them.

I realize that it was college and it doesn't necessarily translate to the NFL, but as a fan, I had this type of confidence in VY in the Rose Bowl. On the 4th and 2 play, I was worried. But the entire time I was saying over and over, "C'mon defense, just get a stop and get VY the ball b/c he WILL win the game for us...he will NOT let us lose." Again, while it doesn't always translate to the NFL, THAT is the kind of QB that I want.

Do you feel this way when Carr gets the ball when the game is on the line? "C'mon, if we can get the ball to Carr, he'll win it for us." I sure don't. With the way the rest of the team seems to perceive Carr, I dare say THEY don't have that confidence in him either. THAT is the issue. THAT is the leadership quality that people are talking about. THAT is what is meant by "he can't take the team on his back."
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Old 02-06-2006   #13
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If we look at Carr, we know that he can make the throws, he can run, etc. But we also know that Carr makes bad decisions, ducks and runs too early, etc. I think all of the faults that Carr has are ones that can be fixed. Kubiak has been around a great QB in Elway and an efficient QB this year in Plummer, so I think that Kubiak can incorporate some of those characteristics from those two QBs and show Carr what he may or may not being doing, and do what he has to do. Can't think of any examples, but I thought I heard Favre was considered bad when he was in ATL, and then all of the sudden he's a God when he goes to GB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 02-06-2006   #14
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Can't think of any examples, but I thought I heard Favre was considered bad when he was in ATL, and then all of the sudden he's a God when he goes to GB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Favre was a backup in Atlanta that had never got a chance to really show what he had. He was there for ONE season, played in TWO games, and only attempted FIVE passes. Hardly a David Carr situation.
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Old 02-06-2006   #15
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Do you feel this way when Carr gets the ball when the game is on the line? "C'mon, if we can get the ball to Carr, he'll win it for us." I sure don't. With the way the rest of the team seems to perceive Carr, I dare say THEY don't have that confidence in him either. THAT is the issue. THAT is the leadership quality that people are talking about. THAT is what is meant by "he can't take the team on his back."

hmmmm ok .... food for thought .... I would say this though at the risk of being a Carr apologist, Montana would have little or no chance either behind the line Carr's had for the better part of 4 years ....

thanks
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Old 02-06-2006   #16
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Jerry Glanville was the coach when Favre was traded , he already had Bobby Hebert .
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Old 02-06-2006   #17
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Favre was a backup in Atlanta that had never got a chance to really show what he had. He was there for ONE season, played in TWO games, and only attempted FIVE passes. Hardly a David Carr situation.
oh...thanks
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Old 02-06-2006   #18
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Also, as far as the leadership and "it" factor is concerned, it has a lot to do w/ how the team and teammates respond to that one player...and to an extent the fans as well. The 49ers KNEW that if Montana had the ball in his hands when the game was on the line, he would come through for them...I dare say that the fans felt this way too. The same can be said for Favre (not this year of course), Aikman, etc. I realize that a lot of this is based upon their past accomplishments, but it is that leadership quality and aura about them that causes their teammates to have this confidence in them.
this definition of "IT" then would seem to be performance-based enough to allow any QB to have it, assuming they were put into a position to succeed ...
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Old 02-06-2006   #19
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hmmmm ok .... food for thought .... I would say this though at the risk of being a Carr apologist, Montana would have little or no chance either behind the line Carr's had for the better part of 4 years ....

thanks
I agree....to an extent.

While I don't think that Montana, Steve Young, Favre, Brady, Big Ben or anyone else could have taken the 2005 Texans to the playoffs, I HAVE to believe that we would have won more than TWO games.

I just can't see any of these QBs repeatedly sacking themselves, running out of bounds, locking onto one receiver, etc. Therefore, we still would have been a better team and they would not have been sacked as much as Carr was....they would have revealed that the Oline was weak, but would not have made them look as HORRIBLE as Carr made them look IMO.
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Old 02-06-2006   #20
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Yes a QB can be molded.

http://www.toywiz.com/mctonflsppil.html

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