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Old 02-05-2006   #1
swtbound07
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I have been sitting here for a while reading bush vs. young vs. trade down, and im not going to start another thread to debate that. Nor am i going to spark any flames... I have a nagging concern, and i want to pose a hypothetical, and see what you would do.
A lot of the basis for not drafting vince young and taking reggie bush has been along the lines of:
I believe that david carr has the tools to be an NFL quarterback, with better coaching and some new o-lineman in there to protect him, he can suceed. Im not going to debate the merits of this arguement, because thats where we foray into opinion. Here is my point.

What happens if we don't attempt to fix the o-line? Before you jump on me and say that we will, think about it for a minute. What if the texans do what they have done EVERY offseason since their inception, and overpay (wade) or find an underperforming (riley) lineman, and call it progress. What if the line you see now is as good as its going to get for a while? Do you still think David Carr can grow as a quarterback with this team NOW? I mean, logically you would think the texans would HAVE to do something about one of the worst passblocking groups in history, but i thought that very same thing last year. I guess my question is this.....what if the texans dont address the o-line? How does this impact who you want to draft with the one-pick? Do you still want david carr under center in this system with this line? Do you want to take reggie and worry about this later? Do you want to draft d'brick and leave the flashy moves for another time? Do you want to take vince young and hope that he can do better than david did? Im not here to campaign for one or the other, so please dont bash this as a disguised thread...i am just genuinely concerned that we are all approaching our reasoning and discussion with a base-level assumption that could very well end up being false.
discuss.
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Old 02-05-2006   #2
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Your proposition might be unbiased, but the majority of responses probably won't be. If the O-Line does not get any better, what happens you ask? Well, there's a few scenarios.

1) Carr looks as inept as ever. Remember that QB we thought looked pretty good in his first game against Dallas? He wasn't ALWAYS gunshy. He wasn't ALWAYS running for his life. I don't really think this is a likely scenario simply because I think Kubiak will be able to put some life into the O, both at QB and OL positions.

Sub-scenario A: Bush is drafted. Well, we have an elite offensive weapon. He's an extremely talented runner, who likely due to his physical talent overtakes DDavis in many situations, although not completely because he's just as likely to split out wide. His presence (if he's all he is cracked up to be) alone should give Carr a little more time because of the open-field threat. Our offense becomes exciting although not necessarily more efficient.

Sub-Scenario B: Da Brick is drafted. Hopefully without much of a transition period, he can take over the LT position. This scenario gets a little tricky because if we continue to adhere to the original proposal, he wouldn't be any better than Pitts right now and most. Even though that would still be an upgrade over anything else we've had at LT, and Pitts sliding over G or RT would likely be an upgrade over anything we've had there as well. So I don't think it's logically possible for the OL to stay exactly the same in effectiveness if Brick is drafted. Unless of course he's a total bust Riley-style and the line doesn't improve at all. In that case, we have the same inept offense we saw all season. (But that's still if we discount Kubiak's effect on it completely)

2) Young is drafted. Maybe he's able to make this line look better. Maybe he has a decent rookie year and our offense makes some strides. Or we just throw another QB to the wolves before he's ready, and Tony Banks comes in so we can salvage a QB's career (not Tony's). Of course we could also let him ride the bench for a year and hope by the time he's really ready to start, we've got a stable OL. But that's delving into the future which isn't really fair to the keeping-Carr scenario A which could turn out just the same with an improved supporting cast. However if he doesn't teach the rest of the team how to walk on water and we've dumped Carr already (literally or implied through actions) we'll be looking at an entire season of Tony Banks or Dave Ragone.

Which one do I want? **** them all, I just want a winning record.
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Old 02-05-2006   #3
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Bottom line, if we don't address the OLine our team is not going to get much, if any, better. Mark Schlereth, among others, said repeatedly on NFL Live that Bush and Vince won't be able to do anything for this team if they don't upgrade the OLine significantly, so the argument between drafting Vince vs. Bush is a moot point if we don't fix up the OLine, although I think Bush would be able to add more to the offense with our current OLine than Vince would.
Either way, we have a new head coach running the team now, so looking at what the Texans have done in past offseasons is not particularly applicable as that coaching staff and their nightmare of personnel decisions is thankfully gone. Kubiak will evaluate our OLinemen and he will either believe that he can make our OLine better by giving them better coaching and running a better system, or else he will bring in new guys in free agency of from the draft.
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Old 02-05-2006   #4
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Originally Posted by MorKnolle
Bottom line, if we don't address the OLine our team is not going to get much, if any, better. Mark Schlereth, among others, said repeatedly on NFL Live that Bush and Vince won't be able to do anything for this team if they don't upgrade the OLine significantly, so the argument between drafting Vince vs. Bush is a moot point if we don't fix up the OLine, although I think Bush would be able to add more to the offense with our current OLine than Vince would.
Either way, we have a new head coach running the team now, so looking at what the Texans have done in past offseasons is not particularly applicable as that coaching staff and their nightmare of personnel decisions is thankfully gone. Kubiak will evaluate our OLinemen and he will either believe that he can make our OLine better by giving them better coaching and running a better system, or else he will bring in new guys in free agency of from the draft.

but arent casserly and reeves still calling the shots on personnel? coaching for the players we have and the decision to acquire new players are 2 entirely seperate areas.
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Old 02-05-2006   #5
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Bound07, your premis to fix the OL seems to be that we must draft Ferguson.
You should consider several things:
(1) many feel that Chester can now be our long-term LT,
but at the very least he can be our RT for a long time
After Dunta, AJ, and Carr he is probably our most valuable player and
certainly one of the most low-profile. He gets very little credit for
his contribution and reliability
(2) It is such a good Draft for O tackles, we whould be able to pick up a
good one with our 2nd round pick (which is 33 overall, practically a
low first round pick)
(3) Few doubt that Ferguson is the best pass blocking OT in the draft, but
there are many reservations about his run blocking abilities. He really is
a bit of a risky pick for such a high selection.
In summary, good chance we already have our franchise LT: most mockers,
unless they are fans of the Texans, don't realize this. And Chester is without
questions a more all round tackle than Fergusoin, has 4 yrs of experience
as an NFL starter, yet is only 26. And we finally have a very strong Draft for
O tackles, making it uneccesary for us to use our #1 to secure another
good tackle to go along with Chester.
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Old 02-05-2006   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nunusguy
Bound07, your premis to fix the OL seems to be that we must draft Ferguson.
You should consider several things:
(1) many feel that Chester can now be our long-term LT,
but at the very least he can be our RT for a long time
After Dunta, AJ, and Carr he is probably our most valuable player and
certainly one of the most low-profile. He gets very little credit for
his contribution and reliability
(2) It is such a good Draft for O tackles, we whould be able to pick up a
good one with our 2nd round pick (which is 33 overall, practically a
low first round pick)
(3) Few doubt that Ferguson is the best pass blocking OT in the draft, but
there are many reservations about his run blocking abilities. He really is
a bit of a risky pick for such a high selection.
In summary, good chance we already have our franchise LT: most mockers,
unless they are fans of the Texans, don't realize this. And Chester is without
questions a more all round tackle than Fergusoin, has 4 yrs of experience
as an NFL starter, yet is only 26. And we finally have a very strong Draft for
O tackles, making it uneccesary for us to use our #1 to secure another
good tackle to go along with Chester.
not my premise at all....actually thats sort of counter intuitive to my point.....im saying yes, its a deep draft for o-linemen. What if we choose not to partake? Im not for brick above many of the others at this point, although i am a vince young fan, thats irrelevant in this particular conversational thread....im saying, assuming the texans do NOTHING to address the o-line this offseason, who do you want to take in the draft? basically who in the draft can function under the system we have...obviously i think 90 percent of the board wants to address the line either through free agency or the draft, but if we dont, who do you want to pick?
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Old 02-05-2006   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swtbound07
but arent casserly and reeves still calling the shots on personnel? coaching for the players we have and the decision to acquire new players are 2 entirely seperate areas.
The coaching staff is generally the people that choose who they want to sign/draft/trade for. They tell the scouts/GM what type of players they are wanting for their system, and the scouts/GM go out and scout and evaluate talent and then come back to the coach with the guys they recommend, and the coaches make the decision on who they want, then it's the GM's job to go out and get those guys, whether it be drafting the guys the coach wants or signing peoople to an appropriate salary, the salary negotiations are the main part of the decision process that Casserly actually has control over, and I don't think he's done a great job on many instances. I have also heard Casserly has even less pull in most personnel decisions than many GMs do, and Dan Reeves does not call any of the shots. He is a consultant for McNair to evaluate our current guys and give his opinion on how good he thinks they are/can be and what recommendations he would give for improving the team, but he is not involved in actually making any picks.
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Old 02-05-2006   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorKnolle
The coaching staff is generally the people that choose who they want to sign/draft/trade for. They tell the scouts/GM what type of players they are wanting for their system, and the scouts/GM go out and scout and evaluate talent and then come back to the coach with the guys they recommend, and the coaches make the decision on who they want, then it's the GM's job to go out and get those guys, whether it be drafting the guys the coach wants or signing peoople to an appropriate salary, the salary negotiations are the main part of the decision process that Casserly actually has control over, and I don't think he's done a great job on many instances. I have also heard Casserly has even less pull in most personnel decisions than many GMs do, and Dan Reeves does not call any of the shots. He is a consultant for McNair to evaluate our current guys and give his opinion on how good he thinks they are/can be and what recommendations he would give for improving the team, but he is not involved in actually making any picks.

interesting...i always thought it was much the other way around, with the coach making a wish list and recommendations, but the bottom decision belonging to the gm...i know the scouting department works most closely with the general manager....
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Old 02-05-2006   #9
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I hope that they do fix the oline and to make some progress, I don't expect them to do it all this year but over the next couple years.
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Old 02-05-2006   #10
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Focus on the O-line this year. See where were at. Then probably focus a defense next year. Works for me.
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Old 02-05-2006   #11
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If we get Vince Young we don't really need to fix our O-line
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Old 02-08-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swtbound07
I have been sitting here for a while reading bush vs. young vs. trade down, and im not going to start another thread to debate that. Nor am i going to spark any flames... I have a nagging concern, and i want to pose a hypothetical, and see what you would do.
A lot of the basis for not drafting vince young and taking reggie bush has been along the lines of:
I believe that david carr has the tools to be an NFL quarterback, with better coaching and some new o-lineman in there to protect him, he can suceed. Im not going to debate the merits of this arguement, because thats where we foray into opinion. Here is my point.

What happens if we don't attempt to fix the o-line? Before you jump on me and say that we will, think about it for a minute. What if the texans do what they have done EVERY offseason since their inception, and overpay (wade) or find an underperforming (riley) lineman, and call it progress. What if the line you see now is as good as its going to get for a while? Do you still think David Carr can grow as a quarterback with this team NOW? I mean, logically you would think the texans would HAVE to do something about one of the worst passblocking groups in history, but i thought that very same thing last year. I guess my question is this.....what if the texans dont address the o-line? How does this impact who you want to draft with the one-pick? Do you still want david carr under center in this system with this line? Do you want to take reggie and worry about this later? Do you want to draft d'brick and leave the flashy moves for another time? Do you want to take vince young and hope that he can do better than david did? Im not here to campaign for one or the other, so please dont bash this as a disguised thread...i am just genuinely concerned that we are all approaching our reasoning and discussion with a base-level assumption that could very well end up being false.
discuss.
I'm not going to flame you or anything, but here goes my perspective. The line has been addressed well in the draft each year, except for one. Personnel wise we drafted Pitts, Wand, Hodgdon, etc. etc. these guys are solid players on the O-line. We drafted Weary who when we got him was the 3rd ranked guard in the draft and then disappeared I still believe he has potential. All of these guys can form a cohesive line. If we drafted a solid guard this yr. (I like Setterstorm, but that's just me.) then we would have drafted a complete good line over the yrs. This list does not include other linemen that we had such as Boselli and Young, but too say that personnelwise the Texans ignored the line would be wrong. Coaching has a lot to do with what we have here.

What I worry about is not the o-line personnel, but about the coaching. We have an ex-lineman that could be good dealing with our guy, the Rams ex-line coach that a yr. ago allowed more sacks than we did and allowed alot more this yr.(not more than us, buta alot nonetheless) and Sherman a glimmer of hope who might or might not come here. I could care less if they drafted D'brick because without good coaching I can damn near guarantee his talent would go to waste.
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Old 02-08-2006   #13
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By the way anybody else notice that the guys we draft always take the backseat to guys who probably don't have as much potential, but we get them through FA. Case in point Riley and Wade over Pitts and Wand. McKinney over Hodgdon (yes he's a rookie I'm just saying he has more potential than McKinney) Weigart etc. etc. Hopefully this yr. everyone will get a chance to compete and we'll see the best line we can have this yr. Also to answer the question which I guess I totally didn't address in my ramblings. I would go after Schaffer in FA, if not him Setterstorm, Mangold, or Enslayer in the draft. These guys would be available later in the draft and be an upgrade or at least add depth. If nothing then land Sherman cuff him, gag him and get him down here.
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