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Old 02-04-2006   #1
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Default Forget a good, solid team. Let's go for amazing.

This is an essay more than a msg, but bear with me. I’m trying to sort out the Vince Young, David Carr, Reggie Bush thing, and what it comes down to for me (and I suspect some others) is that Vince Young looks like he might be a once in a lifetime player, a great player, not just an excellent player. Bush looks like he might be an excellent player (like all the running backs he’s been compared to, save Sayers). And Carr looks like he might be a pretty good player, once Kubiak coaches him up.

And that is what the talk is all about, the _possibility_ that Vince Young is the rare remarkable player like (but not in the same way as) Earl Campbell. But on that level.

When I think about Houston teams I cared about, it’s always the teams with standout players, players who are singular, not to be repeated or replaced, one of a kind guys. They just make the game interesting in a way it isn’t if all you’ve got is a really “good” team. I hesitate to say this now, with Kubiak in the fold, because he’s on record as favoring the team concept, and what that means, usually, is no superstar players. No heroes, no one of a kinds.

Look at Denver now. Sure, it’s a good team, but I’m not sure you can care too much about ‘em, win or lose. Now think back to the Oilers of Earl and Pastorini, and Burroughs and Renfro. Earl was the bigger than life guy, it did not matter what he did, every single time he touched the ball it was exciting. He made 5 yards the most exciting five yards in football, almost every time. You wanted Earl and the rest of those guys to win because Earl was special. To a lesser degree, lots of others on the team were special, and Earl made them more special. Without Earl I’m not sure we’d have cared so much. In his way Moon was like that, too. Great passing, an attack that for a while terrified everybody in the league, and might have gone further except for the Buffalo tragedy. Some bad PR you can't escape, and when the D went in the Dumpster, well that was it for the Run & Shoot. Football guys still say you can't run that offense in the pros. Don't tell Moon. 547 yards in that game--was it against Denver? I forget.

So this is why I think the Texans ought to draft Young, on the chance, and pretty fair chance at that, that he turns out to be that Earl Campbell kind of player, the one that sparks the rest of the team, the city, the whole world of professional football.

And that's what it comes down to for me. Would I rather win a superbowl with a solid but dull team or have an astonishing team that didn't quite get there? I'll take astonishing every time. Frankly, I don't care that the Oilers did not win a super bowl with Earl Campbell, and I would not trade the Earl Campbell years for a super bowl ring for the Oilers. Ask yourselves if you would. Make it a simple exchange: give up Earl, win a super bowl. Would you?

Kubiak might build a good, solid team without Young. And Bush might be a quicker fix (though, frankly, that’s just speculation, no more or less likely than Vince Young coming in and burning up the league). But I don’t care about a quicker fix. I want to see astonishing and wonderful players who stand out from the crowd, who are NOT just excellent NFL players, but are the remarkable players. Players like Earl Campbell, who take your breath away. Players about whom you can say there hasn’t been a guy like him before or since.

Am I sure Vince is that guy? No. But he seems like our best shot at it.
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Old 02-04-2006   #2
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Solid but dull, please.

You're making the assumption that our team will be composed of nothing but nobodies with no one special if we go the team route.
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Old 02-04-2006   #3
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Nighthawk-

Although I share your desire of drafting VY I would trade anyone player for a Championship if the alternative meant no championship. Example: I'm cool with Hakeem Olajuwan cuz we eventually got a couple but if we were to never get one the Bulls win 8 straight (imagine if MJ never retired) then I would've been the first in line to say we made a mistake by passing on MJ when we had the chance to get him.

Same goes for this scenario. We have all players at our disposal for one pick (the #1 overall) and we deathly need to make the right decision. My opinion we need VY, others say Bush. My opinion is Bush is a Band-aid on a bad gash while VY is the the stitches needed to stop the bleeding permanently.
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Old 02-04-2006   #4
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You VY fans are really trying, aren't you? Sheesh how many more of these kinds of threads?
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Old 02-04-2006   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk
This is an essay more than a msg, but bear with me. Iím trying to sort out the Vince Young, David Carr, Reggie Bush thing, and what it comes down to for me (and I suspect some others) is that Vince Young looks like he might be a once in a lifetime player, a great player, not just an excellent player. Bush looks like he might be an excellent player (like all the running backs heís been compared to, save Sayers). And Carr looks like he might be a pretty good player, once Kubiak coaches him up.

And that is what the talk is all about, the _possibility_ that Vince Young is the rare remarkable player like (but not in the same way as) Earl Campbell. But on that level.

When I think about Houston teams I cared about, itís always the teams with standout players, players who are singular, not to be repeated or replaced, one of a kind guys. They just make the game interesting in a way it isnít if all youíve got is a really ďgoodĒ team. I hesitate to say this now, with Kubiak in the fold, because heís on record as favoring the team concept, and what that means, usually, is no superstar players. No heroes, no one of a kinds.

Look at Denver now. Sure, itís a good team, but Iím not sure you can care too much about Ďem, win or lose. Now think back to the Oilers of Earl and Pastorini, and Burroughs and Renfro. Earl was the bigger than life guy, it did not matter what he did, every single time he touched the ball it was exciting. He made 5 yards the most exciting five yards in football, almost every time. You wanted Earl and the rest of those guys to win because Earl was special. To a lesser degree, lots of others on the team were special, and Earl made them more special. Without Earl Iím not sure weíd have cared so much. In his way Moon was like that, too. Great passing, an attack that for a while terrified everybody in the league, and might have gone further except for the Buffalo tragedy. Some bad PR you can't escape, and when the D went in the Dumpster, well that was it for the Run & Shoot. Football guys still say you can't run that offense in the pros. Don't tell Moon. 547 yards in that game--was it against Denver? I forget.

So this is why I think the Texans ought to draft Young, on the chance, and pretty fair chance at that, that he turns out to be that Earl Campbell kind of player, the one that sparks the rest of the team, the city, the whole world of professional football.

And that's what it comes down to for me. Would I rather win a superbowl with a solid but dull team or have an astonishing team that didn't quite get there? I'll take astonishing every time. Frankly, I don't care that the Oilers did not win a super bowl with Earl Campbell, and I would not trade the Earl Campbell years for a super bowl ring for the Oilers. Ask yourselves if you would. Make it a simple exchange: give up Earl, win a super bowl. Would you?

Kubiak might build a good, solid team without Young. And Bush might be a quicker fix (though, frankly, thatís just speculation, no more or less likely than Vince Young coming in and burning up the league). But I donít care about a quicker fix. I want to see astonishing and wonderful players who stand out from the crowd, who are NOT just excellent NFL players, but are the remarkable players. Players like Earl Campbell, who take your breath away. Players about whom you can say there hasnít been a guy like him before or since.

Am I sure Vince is that guy? No. But he seems like our best shot at it.

The best post I have seen from you, very nice job.
Personally, I have been leaning towards a trade down scenario from day one, not that I don't think Bush and VY (and I really like VY) will be great players but that we have too many holes to plug. But you have done a great job of stating your case, and got me wondering. Some will say it is all about the Championships and the W's and with good reason. It is however a little unfair to compare the past accomplishments of Earl Campbell that have already been cemented in our memories to the possiblities of what Might will happen. That is why hindsight is 20/20 and the keyword is Might, and the same reason we can't close our minds to that possibility once more. Only time will tell and in the present it is not always that clear.
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Old 02-04-2006   #6
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Talking Boring, yet true.

Okay you made some vaild points, but you made the most clear one!

We have to draft Vince, best fit! RB come a dime a dozen now days,

look at the top drafted backs last season, no big deals!!! Vince is a Talent

that comes around once every 12-15 years, a forsure hall-of-famer!

Sure Bush is great, but unproven.... I think D.Davis is good, and could do a

great job if healthy and an upgraded O.line! Think about it!!!!!! Carr has pretty

good trade value? (I think, he does dosn't he?) hell draft young, then Trade

Carr, #2, #3, #4 pick, and P.Buc for the #2 overall from NO, and get your

Bush!!! (now that would be something! God, I would be a great Pro GM!)

what do ya'll think about my post, please fill me in guys i've been outta of the

loop) !! CANT WAIT UNTIL: NEXT YEAR!!!!!
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Old 02-04-2006   #7
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Nighthawk, I agree w/ most everything in your post. I would not take astonishing over a championship though. My desire to have VY is that he WILL lead us to a championship; not just to watch the exciting, unbelievable plays that he'll make. Those plays are just icing on the cake (just like his being from Houston), but it is these exciting, unbelievable plays that makes him special and will help lead the team to the SB.

I love what BigBTexan Fan said...."Bush is a Band-aid on a bad gash while VY is the the stitches needed to stop the bleeding permanently." That is exactly why I want VY. He'll solidify the team for the future IMO. I just can't envision Carr ever leading us to the SB...if we do make it to the SB w/ Carr as our QB, I feel like our defense will have to be like the 2000 Ravens and they'll be the ones leading us there.
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Old 02-04-2006   #8
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Nighthawk.......


St Louis-> Amazing team-> 2 SuperBowls
Dallas/49ers->dull(relatively speaking)->5 rings.....



Honestly, I don't call myself an Oiler fan anymore.... if they don't want to be in Houston....... I gots nut'n fo'em...... I'm so glad they are gone.

I wanted a fresh start... I'd like a tradition of winning to come to our city.

Have you been watching BenRoth telling the NFL network guys how he felt soooo bad about loosing that one game last year, that he went to Bettis, apologized, and swore that if the Bus would come back, Ben said, "I will get you there".......? That's what I want out of our QB....... is it David's fault that we went 2-14?? no, but he should act like it is...... he should come into that locker room, and say, "Guys, I'm sorry I couldn't get you guys more wins last year. I'm sorry that people are calling you loosers, & I'm sorry that they do not respect you. I'm putting my name on this board... this means I'll be here @ 6:00a.m. watching film, and studying.... and I'll be on the field @ 5:00p.m., working on my game because I'm tired of being a loser. If you're tired of being losers, and want to become a champion, put your name on this board, and meet me here before practice, and on the field after practice, and I'll get you to the playoffs...... word is bond..... peace"

Last edited by thunderkyss; 02-04-2006 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 02-04-2006   #9
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Default Vince!!

Thunder Well said.

Heart i belive is Key in the NFL, I would draft heart over speed, size, or
overall Talent! Im not saying take the "rudy" type player, but I belive
its a strong factor, and a rare factor! How many players have a chance
to play for there home squad? Vince loves the Texans, You can see it! It shines!
It would be such a huge mistake to pass on him! Has anyone seen the commerical of him, with the Texans hemlet in the background? Please Gary,
make the best, right, and sound choice- pick the HomeTown Hero- #10 V.Young!

Go Texans!!!! - ps- whats Carr's trade value? Thanks
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Old 02-05-2006   #10
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You VY homers are incredible. He's the one with ONE good season under his belt. We have no DATA on how he will do pulling out from under center??? He's the QB in this draft with question marks. I see him as a taller MV so if he doesn't want to find out the hard way, he better hope that he is drafted by a team who has a veteran in place which could give him 18 to 24 months to adjust.
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Old 02-05-2006   #11
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Originally Posted by TEXANFAN23435
You VY homers are incredible. He's the one with ONE good season under his belt. We have no DATA on how he will do pulling out from under center??? He's the QB in this draft with question marks. I see him as a taller MV so if he doesn't want to find out the hard way, he better hope that he is drafted by a team who has a veteran in place which could give him 18 to 24 months to adjust.
You VY bashers are incredible.

While I understand that he will have to learn and adjust to playing under center as opposed to shotgun, I just don't seeing it being as big a problem as you do. I have come to realize that even if he did play under center, there would be some that would say, "what if he has to play in the shotgun sometime? Can he do it?" The kid is smart and talented...he can adjust.

I find it interesting that you see him as a taller MV. Why is that? Because MV is the only one that has running skills like VY? That must be your only basis for this comparison b/c if you review their stats, you'll see that VY is a MUCH better passer and QB than Vick was when he was coming out of college. The simple fact that you'd compare the two shows how little you know about VY and his abilities.

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Old 02-05-2006   #12
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You VY homers are incredible. He's the one with ONE good season under his belt. We have no DATA on how he will do pulling out from under center???
I think Young was 30-2 at Texas as a starter...not a bad, 'ONE good season'. He looks ok under center to me, but you actually watch him play to know this kind of stuff.
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Old 02-05-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
I think Young was 30-2 at Texas as a starter...not a bad, 'ONE good season'. He looks ok under center to me, but you actually watch him play to know this kind of stuff.
that link didnt so much work for me vinny...it tried to pull up in windows media player and then i got sound but no visual:brickwall
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Old 02-05-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Nighthawk.......


St Louis-> Amazing team-> 2 SuperBowls
Dallas/49ers->dull(relatively speaking)->5 rings.....



Honestly, I don't call myself an Oiler fan anymore.... if they don't want to be in Houston....... I gots nut'n fo'em...... I'm so glad they are gone.

I wanted a fresh start... I'd like a tradition of winning to come to our city.

Have you been watching BenRoth telling the NFL network guys how he felt soooo bad about loosing that one game last year, that he went to Bettis, apologized, and swore that if the Bus would come back, Ben said, "I will get you there".......? That's what I want out of our QB....... is it David's fault that we went 2-14?? no, but he should act like it is...... he should come into that locker room, and say, "Guys, I'm sorry I couldn't get you guys more wins last year. I'm sorry that people are calling you loosers, & I'm sorry that they do not respect you. I'm putting my name on this board... this means I'll be here @ 6:00a.m. watching film, and studying.... and I'll be on the field @ 5:00p.m., working on my game because I'm tired of being a loser. If you're tired of being losers, and want to become a champion, put your name on this board, and meet me here before practice, and on the field after practice, and I'll get you to the playoffs...... word is bond..... peace"
Did you honestly call the 49er/Dallas teams of the 90's dull? I can name O Lineman from those teams. This all comes down to taste in how you like your football. If you like watching 7 step drops and deep bombs, then ya, go with the Rams. If you like watching perfectly executed running plays and He-Man blocks by the O-line, then you want the Cowboys. If you like precision passing, then you want the 49ers, it all comes down to preference...Personally, I would rather have a team that could steamroll any other on the ground and plays lockdown defense. When WRs get planted over the middle and QBs get chin-checked, THAT's excitement...

But yeah, it's (been) time for DC to Man Up...
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Old 02-05-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
I think Young was 30-2 at Texas as a starter...not a bad, 'ONE good season'. He looks ok under center to me, but you actually watch him play to know this kind of stuff.
Good clip, not only because he looks just perfect taking the ball under center, but because he appears to look off his reciever, and check through at least one, maybe two other receivers before finding the one he ends up hitting. Something certain QBs who shall remain nameless seem to have trouble doing.
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Old 02-05-2006   #16
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Originally Posted by AustinJB
You VY bashers are incredible.

While I understand that he will have to learn and adjust to playing under center as opposed to shotgun, I just don't seeing it being as big a problem as you do. I have come to realize that even if he did play under center, there would be some that would say, "what if he has to play in the shotgun sometime? Can he do it?" The kid is smart and talented...he can adjust.

I find it interesting that you see him as a taller MV. Why is that? Because MV is the only one that has running skills like VY? That must be your only basis for this comparison b/c if you review their stats, you'll see that VY is a MUCH better passer and QB than Vick was when he was coming out of college. The simple fact that you'd compare the two shows how little you know about VY and his abilities.

This is one of the truest statements I have seen posted on this entire discussion. Young and Vick are the same in that they are Black, fast, and play QB, that's it. Why does no one compare Young as a more athletic Roethilisberger? They are much more alike in stature and Ben is very mobile for his size. Ben doesn't run all the time, but when he does, he gets positive yards; imagine that with a few extra 10-15 even 25yd chunks here and there. I suppose everyone's concern with Young being under center is making reads (of course), but what do we really think is going to happen? Is Young, a great athlete at QB not going to be able to keep his head up (making reads) and take steps backwards at the same time? The Option-read was used at TX to take advantage of his ability to run the option. In the pros, the threat of him being able to take off in man coverage almost forces zone and would be a nightmare to defend in short yardage situations. Every QB has a learning curve; Carr will have a learning curve with a new system this year; if you have the ability, then it is simply a matter of repitition...
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Old 02-05-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJB
You VY bashers are incredible.

While I understand that he will have to learn and adjust to playing under center as opposed to shotgun, I just don't seeing it being as big a problem as you do. I have come to realize that even if he did play under center, there would be some that would say, "what if he has to play in the shotgun sometime? Can he do it?" The kid is smart and talented...he can adjust.

I find it interesting that you see him as a taller MV. Why is that? Because MV is the only one that has running skills like VY? That must be your only basis for this comparison b/c if you review their stats, you'll see that VY is a MUCH better passer and QB than Vick was when he was coming out of college. The simple fact that you'd compare the two shows how little you know about VY and his abilities.


Better than McNabb, Culpepper, Favre, etc... to boot.

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Originally Posted by TreWardTxn
Did you honestly call the 49er/Dallas teams of the 90's dull? I can name O Lineman from those teams. This all comes down to taste in how you like your football. If you like watching 7 step drops and deep bombs, then ya, go with the Rams. If you like watching perfectly executed running plays and He-Man blocks by the O-line, then you want the Cowboys. If you like precision passing, then you want the 49ers, it all comes down to preference...Personally, I would rather have a team that could steamroll any other on the ground and plays lockdown defense. When WRs get planted over the middle and QBs get chin-checked, THAT's excitement...

But yeah, it's (been) time for DC to Man Up...
It's all relative........ I'm saying the Rams were Amazing, which they were... those other two teams IMHO while exciting to watch, were solidly built teams on both sides of the Ball..... the Rams, were ranked like 29th in D.
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Old 02-05-2006   #18
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I think Young was 30-2 at Texas as a starter...not a bad, 'ONE good season'. He looks ok under center to me, but you actually watch him play to know this kind of stuff.

Are you crazy?? He took like five steps back.... looked to his right, then his left, then back to his right.. Then, he started bouncing up in the pocket....

You are crazy if you think that kind of play will make it in the NFL.

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Old 02-05-2006   #19
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Originally Posted by thunderkyss
Nighthawk.......


St Louis-> Amazing team-> 2 SuperBowls
Dallas/49ers->dull(relatively speaking)->5 rings.....



Honestly, I don't call myself an Oiler fan anymore.... if they don't want to be in Houston....... I gots nut'n fo'em...... I'm so glad they are gone.

I wanted a fresh start... I'd like a tradition of winning to come to our city.

Have you been watching BenRoth telling the NFL network guys how he felt soooo bad about loosing that one game last year, that he went to Bettis, apologized, and swore that if the Bus would come back, Ben said, "I will get you there".......? That's what I want out of our QB....... is it David's fault that we went 2-14?? no, but he should act like it is...... he should come into that locker room, and say, "Guys, I'm sorry I couldn't get you guys more wins last year. I'm sorry that people are calling you loosers, & I'm sorry that they do not respect you. I'm putting my name on this board... this means I'll be here @ 6:00a.m. watching film, and studying.... and I'll be on the field @ 5:00p.m., working on my game because I'm tired of being a loser. If you're tired of being losers, and want to become a champion, put your name on this board, and meet me here before practice, and on the field after practice, and I'll get you to the playoffs...... word is bond..... peace"
TK, that is the difference between a winner and a loser. A winner accepts responsibility and says what do I need to get it done.
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Old 02-05-2006   #20
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This is an essay more than a msg, but bear with me. Iím trying to sort out the Vince Young, David Carr, Reggie Bush thing, and what it comes down to for me (and I suspect some others) is that Vince Young looks like he might be a once in a lifetime player, a great player, not just an excellent player. Bush looks like he might be an excellent player (like all the running backs heís been compared to, save Sayers). And Carr looks like he might be a pretty good player, once Kubiak coaches him up.

And that is what the talk is all about, the _possibility_ that Vince Young is the rare remarkable player like (but not in the same way as) Earl Campbell. But on that level.

When I think about Houston teams I cared about, itís always the teams with standout players, players who are singular, not to be repeated or replaced, one of a kind guys. They just make the game interesting in a way it isnít if all youíve got is a really ďgoodĒ team. I hesitate to say this now, with Kubiak in the fold, because heís on record as favoring the team concept, and what that means, usually, is no superstar players. No heroes, no one of a kinds.

Look at Denver now. Sure, itís a good team, but Iím not sure you can care too much about Ďem, win or lose. Now think back to the Oilers of Earl and Pastorini, and Burroughs and Renfro. Earl was the bigger than life guy, it did not matter what he did, every single time he touched the ball it was exciting. He made 5 yards the most exciting five yards in football, almost every time. You wanted Earl and the rest of those guys to win because Earl was special. To a lesser degree, lots of others on the team were special, and Earl made them more special. Without Earl Iím not sure weíd have cared so much. In his way Moon was like that, too. Great passing, an attack that for a while terrified everybody in the league, and might have gone further except for the Buffalo tragedy. Some bad PR you can't escape, and when the D went in the Dumpster, well that was it for the Run & Shoot. Football guys still say you can't run that offense in the pros. Don't tell Moon. 547 yards in that game--was it against Denver? I forget.

So this is why I think the Texans ought to draft Young, on the chance, and pretty fair chance at that, that he turns out to be that Earl Campbell kind of player, the one that sparks the rest of the team, the city, the whole world of professional football.

And that's what it comes down to for me. Would I rather win a superbowl with a solid but dull team or have an astonishing team that didn't quite get there? I'll take astonishing every time. Frankly, I don't care that the Oilers did not win a super bowl with Earl Campbell, and I would not trade the Earl Campbell years for a super bowl ring for the Oilers. Ask yourselves if you would. Make it a simple exchange: give up Earl, win a super bowl. Would you?

Kubiak might build a good, solid team without Young. And Bush might be a quicker fix (though, frankly, thatís just speculation, no more or less likely than Vince Young coming in and burning up the league). But I donít care about a quicker fix. I want to see astonishing and wonderful players who stand out from the crowd, who are NOT just excellent NFL players, but are the remarkable players. Players like Earl Campbell, who take your breath away. Players about whom you can say there hasnít been a guy like him before or since.

Am I sure Vince is that guy? No. But he seems like our best shot at it.
This is why you are not a football coach! Ask any coach and they would take a dull winning team over the astonishing team b/c the spectacular fades but good solid teams remain worth watching for years.

It should be noted that the teams in the Super Bowl today are the solid dull type. What happened to the astonishing team, the Colts, the last few seasons? It seems to me I would much rather the like the Patriots, Steelers, Broncos, Seahawks, or Panthers. These teams are solid football teams, I am sorry if they cannot entertain you.

Vince Young is a wonderful talent and I think he will eventually be a very good player in the NFL. However, I think everyone in Texas, myself included, has a severe set of beer-googles on when viewing his talents. You are mistaking the idea that having the overall best player makes for the overall best team. Vince Young may be great, but his value to the Texans would not exceed David Carr + Reggie Bush or D'Brickashaw Furguson. You have to consider what makes the best "team." Individual talents do not make the team, sure they may be "astonishing" and fun to watch, but football is about winning.

Do you go in business to have a great year once a decade, or to make money every year? I hope to make money every year or else you may have trouble putting food on the table. The same is true with football, you want to win and you want to win often. I do not care how you get it done, just getter done.

Kubiak is not about flash or gimmicks, he is a rock solid guy that is going to build the team and organization right. You are knocking the Broncos, but this is likely the second or third best organization in the NFL (behind the Patriots and possibily the Steelers). The team has been a consistent winner for 20 years. I would much rather take that then a couple of good years during the Love Ya Blue era and the Run-and-Shoot theatrics.
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