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Old 02-04-2006   #1
Wolf
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Default When do we go UGLY?

Let's face it everyone wants their cake and eat it too, but we can't. What is funny is everyone talks about Offensive line cannot protect the QB, Defense cannot get a pass rush (yes, I am frustrated like y'all about that). Let's recap the drafts
2002 Expansion draft.. We thought we had our OL settled for at least a couple of years .. Boselli and Young
so with
2002 .. we take Carr,Gaffney and Pitts first 3 picks... (supplement Brown)
2003.. Young and Boselli didn't pan, but at the time we need to get Carr some playmakers... we draft AJ and Joppru to help the offense
2004 we see a need in getting playmakers/youth on defense..D-rob and Babin are the top two choices ..
2005 we go with TJ as our top pick (finally go ugly) and we trade for a talented but underachieving CB to go with d-rob (p-buc)

here we are in 2006 and we ( essage board)are talking QB and RB again.. I mean when do we go UGLY? I am going to be happy if we go Bush or Young or trade down,but frustating part is all the threads talking about Casserly and his failure to get Carr protected and how the offense sputters..

I understand the Bush/VY could possibly be great NFL players and drafting them means that we still aren't addressing some serious issues with this team.. Protecting Carr and/or getting our defense to stop someone. IF we get Bush...he isn't going to protect Carr and isn't going to stop anyone on defense.. If we draft VY ..he is going to sit and that isn't going to help stop anyone/protect Carr...

My point is at some time we are going to have to go with the "Ugly" unpopular pick.. As some people say Carr is damaged goods.. wait till one more season of the same stuff and see how damaged he is.. and still with a healthy salary.
Draft day, I will be excited when the Texans pick (lets see if ESPN actually talks about the Texans this year, but I imagine more focus will be on Matt,Bush,Vince then the Texan needs) and won't be disappointed with whatever they do with the #1 overall (maybe 2nd round pick might have a discussion)
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Old 02-04-2006   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
Let's face it everyone wants their cake and eat it too, but we can't. What is funny is everyone talks about Offensive line cannot protect the QB, Defense cannot get a pass rush (yes, I am frustrated like y'all about that). Let's recap the drafts
2002 Expansion draft.. We thought we had our OL settled for at least a couple of years .. Boselli and Young
so with
2002 .. we take Carr,Gaffney and Pitts first 3 picks... (supplement Brown)
2003.. Young and Boselli didn't pan, but at the time we need to get Carr some playmakers... we draft AJ and Joppru to help the offense
2004 we see a need in getting playmakers/youth on defense..D-rob and Babin are the top two choices ..
2005 we go with TJ as our top pick (finally go ugly) and we trade for a talented but underachieving CB to go with d-rob (p-buc)

here we are in 2006 and we ( essage board)are talking QB and RB again.. I mean when do we go UGLY? I am going to be happy if we go Bush or Young or trade down,but frustating part is all the threads talking about Casserly and his failure to get Carr protected and how the offense sputters..

I understand the Bush/VY could possibly be great NFL players and drafting them means that we still aren't addressing some serious issues with this team.. Protecting Carr and/or getting our defense to stop someone. IF we get Bush...he isn't going to protect Carr and isn't going to stop anyone on defense.. If we draft VY ..he is going to sit and that isn't going to help stop anyone/protect Carr...

My point is at some time we are going to have to go with the "Ugly" unpopular pick.. As some people say Carr is damaged goods.. wait till one more season of the same stuff and see how damaged he is.. and still with a healthy salary.
Draft day, I will be excited when the Texans pick (lets see if ESPN actually talks about the Texans this year, but I imagine more focus will be on Matt,Bush,Vince then the Texan needs) and won't be disappointed with whatever they do with the #1 overall (maybe 2nd round pick might have a discussion)
Solid post Wolf. I understand the need to get playmakers, but playmakers can't make plays without a little help up-front. I'm talking about both sides of the ball. The QB, WRs, and RBs need the o-line to give them the time to create plays, and the DBs, safties, and LBs need the d-line to create chaos so they can make plays, whether it be sacks or INTs. The playmakers we make are useless if the "big uglies" don't give them the chance?
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Old 02-04-2006   #3
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thing is that our main homerun threat playmaker on offense is AJ and we can't even get him the ball.
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Old 02-04-2006   #4
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I'm firmly of the opinion that the Texans will trade down from #1 & take either, D'Brick or Mario Williams. If they take Williams with their 1st pick, then I believe they'll take an OL with pick #33.

While we need a TE, I believe that they'll wait until the 3rd round to take one of the 2nd tier TE's like Klopfenstein, Fasano, Byrd, or Day.
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Old 02-04-2006   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hottoddie
I'm firmly of the opinion that the Texans will trade down from #1 & take either, D'Brick or Mario Williams. If they take Williams with their 1st pick, then I believe they'll take an OL with pick #33.

While we need a TE, I believe that they'll wait until the 3rd round to take one of the 2nd tier TE's like Klopfenstein, Fasano, Byrd, or Day.
I'd love to see us go OLT and DE with our 1st two selections, and TE with one of our two 3rds. Then we can add a good interior lineman and a safety with our other 3rd and our 4th.
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Old 02-04-2006   #6
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See.....I agree with the overall point. But, I think we can take something slick with pick one, all the while fortifying the "uglies" through free agency or trade.

I would rather have an experienced group of "uglies" added, rather than rookies.
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Old 02-04-2006   #7
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i have a couple "safe" picks that i have made up in my mind. OLT, interior o-lineman, ILB, FS, TE, and DE. these are guys i would like to see us draft somewhere in this years draft (of course i have my personal favorites but how often is a fan right outside of the 1st round).

we really dont need to get a 3 year project and these rooks need to have the ability to be inserted into the lineup at the drop of a hat.

as much as i would like us to get a couple free agents, im guessing we will only go after backups (like sanders or rivers). if wade and greenwood are examples of what our FO did - then PLEASE step on the brakes and hold it up. huge contracts to lure them over plus not a great job of scouting - ill pass thank you very much
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Old 02-04-2006   #8
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Good thread, Wolf.

This is one of the strongest drafts in awhile, and if we could capitalize on the high value of our pick(s), I'm sure we could really fill in some holes. I know it wouldn't be a popular decision among fans, but we have to look long term. Getting a flashy rookie QB or RB is a short-term glamour pick, because everyone will be excited about having a playmaker.

But the reality is that one player won't make that much of a difference if he can't make plays because he lacks the supporting cast around him. Watching Young get sacked a dozen times a game, or Bush get stopped in the backfield time after time, won't do much for fans. Building a strong team by acquiring and assembling the right parts so we can consistently win will do everything for the franchise and fans.

There will be a lot of bellyaching and gnashing of teeth if they go with a o-lineman or defensive player with the no. 1 pick, but those boos will turn to cheers one those unpopular picks give us the edge during the regular season.

I say look at the big picture, and go with a long-term strategy for success.
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Old 02-04-2006   #9
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I agree with your point. However, I think that this years draft allows us to take one of the dynamic players in VY/Bush and still address the "uglies" in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

If this draft were not as deep as it is in OL, then I may be hesitant to take another playmaker in the 1st as well.
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Old 02-04-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Barrel
This is one of the strongest drafts in awhile, and if we could capitalize on the high value of our pick(s), I'm sure we could really fill in some holes. I know it wouldn't be a popular decision among fans, but we have to look long term.
while i STILL continue to mourn the death of mr. miyagi, this would definately help me out in the mourning process....



Quote:
There will be a lot of bellyaching and gnashing of teeth if they go with a o-lineman or defensive player with the no. 1 pick
this is the only scenario i cant see since next in line are teams ready to jump all over a qb rather than a lineman or DE perhaps. (as i reread this, i question if i understood you correctly. did you mean keeping #1 or did you mean our first pick even though it may not be #1 overall...just trying to make sure we are on the same page here)
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Old 02-04-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdude730
(as i reread this, i question if i understood you correctly. did you mean keeping #1 or did you mean our first pick even though it may not be #1 overall...just trying to make sure we are on the same page here)
This one: "our first pick even though it may not be #1 overall"

D'brick, Williams, or Hawk (and a couple of others) would all make great choices, IMO. They might not be the flashy picks that gets a lot of fans pumped, but these are the kind of players that provide anchor to their specific units.
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Old 02-04-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Barrel
This one: "our first pick even though it may not be #1 overall"

D'brick, Williams, or Hawk (and a couple of others) would all make great choices, IMO. They might not be the flashy picks that gets a lot of fans pumped, but these are the kind of players that provide anchor to their specific units.
right on, chief!


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Old 02-04-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Barrel
D'brick, Williams, or Hawk
I'd take either of these three over VY and Bush
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Old 02-04-2006   #14
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I'm not sure I get the label that people keep putting on Bush and VY as "flashy" etc. It is almost like saying they are overrated. These are two extrodinary athletes that have led their teams over the years and who are winners. We are a 2-14 team with maybe 2 game changing athletes on both sides of the ball..AJ and Daunte. Besides that we are 2-14 because we have ZERO top tier talent. There are two things about this draft...it is DEEP on O-line and it is top heavy on playmakers. With 4 of the Top 66 picks we could easily take Bush or Young AND get the O-line you need with the next three picks and FA. Why would you want to pass on that?You could do the same thing by trading down, getting more picks and getting a stud DE that can reek havok or a LB with a motor and heart who will be a leader and make plays. You could still then get O-line. D'Brick IMHO is getting way too much press. I think there are a few other guys who have just as solid a chance. Brick was inconsistent and banged up in his senior year. I just don't see getting one O-lineman and being stuck with the playmakers we have. Makes ZERO sense.
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Old 02-04-2006   #15
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I see what you are saying,but like my original post.. we haven't gone ugly yet.. I mean say we pick up Bush this season and next season we win 3 games and have the #1 pick overall again and the OL and DL hasn't been addressed.. well threads will pop up all over the place about Quinn coming to Houston... or if somehow we took Vince... and have a 3 win season.. and Peterson declares.. well threads pop up about Peterson all over the place..

I just find it hard for us to get better when our OL is horrible and I do admit I believe we should see some improvement with Pendry gone .. but still.

When will the Texans realize we would have to go ugly? ...I admit as a fan I hated the oilers for picking up Steinkuhler,Munchak and Mathews in consecutive drafts.. it was ugly,but those guys laid the foundation for Rozier,White, etc..etc..
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Old 02-04-2006   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
When will the Texans realize we would have to go ugly?
When Carr ha to breathe into a tube to move, because that's where he's heading with this lack of addressing one of the two major problems this team has.
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Old 02-04-2006   #17
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I, too, am in the "trade the pick" group.

Going ugly is not the most popular move because it doesn't place us inside the media hurricane like a lot of people want. Most fans, IMO, just want us to be talked about a lot...and thus they want us to get the guy that everyone is talking about. And let's face it, when you have VY and RB in the draft this year, with the fireworks these guys had produced all season and in the championship game, you WILL get a lot of boos and a lot of "I am not cheering this team anymore..." junk from about 50% of the fans.

The Detroit Lions and the Cleveland Browns are two good examples of teams drafting sexy and getting absolutely nowhere for it. Every draft they do the same thing, and every draft they are picking in the same slots in the first round.

And against the argument that we "don't have top tier" talent in the QB/RB/WR department: I think we do. To see so much griping all season long about how Carr sacks himself, Carr doesn't have an o line to keep him upright, and AJ can't get the ball because Carr is on his back, and yet to see the hype about us NEEDING to take one of those two guys (VY or RB) in order to be a serious NFL threat, is just amazing to me.

Franchise o linemen don't come around in free agency very often because teams get them and pay them richly to keep them on their team. And I support the "trade the pick and get the "Brick" idea because I watched him in the senior bowl, and the few plays I saw it looked like he was man-handling his opponent...and his opponent was NFL-caliber because it's the senior bowl.

But I still think we are taking Bush, especially since it seems McNair gave Carroll his "word," and we all know that McNair is a man of his word. In addition, you've got a guy in Kubiak who no doubt has salivated over the chance to load up in the running back position with DD AND Bush, and Wells and Morency in reserve.

Developing VY is not an idea I want to even consider. He's a great talent, but it'd take a few seasons for him to get fully comfortableon OUR team. He could easily plug into other teams (Titans) and hit the ground running (literally) and it'll make it look like we should have drafted him. I can see it happening.

Going ugly is the best thing to do, but it ain't going to happen.
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Old 02-04-2006   #18
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your right on that.. I want everyone to talk about the Texans too, just frustates me (and y'all) that when the season goes, the only thing talked about the Texans is Carr getting sacked....:brickwall
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Old 02-04-2006   #19
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I see where you guys are coming from but again, we don't just have ONE pick and we have a deep O-line draft. If we are going to build like Denver then lets build like them. Their one first round o-lineman was a #20 pick. One guy was 7th round, one an undrafted rookie and two fourth rounders. The way their blocking scheme goes it is more taught than just sticking them in and letting them go. You can get Bush, VY or Hawk or Williams and and still get top tire lineman in the 2nd round and some really good guys in the 3rd. I think we have some guys now that can also fit the system. I don't think this is an either/or draft. If done right you can accomplish both goals. I could care less abotu evetryone talking about us but I also think line or no line that a few of the games we lost this year could have been won if we had a guy who could take it to the house on one play instead of a team of pretty good guys that teams didn't fear. DD is not going to break one off to win a game or put a game away.
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Old 02-04-2006   #20
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I think going UGLY should be our first priority on both sides of the ball. As you all know, Im a big trade down fan, I want Ferguson in the first riound, just because of the success of first round tackles., though I wouldnt mind taking Mario in round 1 and going OT in round 2.
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