Does anyone like my avatar?

[raised_on_beans_n_rice]

With that aside, I have read alot of these threads about taking Reggie over Vince. I understand that Reggie would have a greater impact now, but Young will have a tremendous impact in the future. Consider this:

Granted, these two guys are not LaDanian Tomlinson and Michael Vick but they are similar so work with me. If you had the chance to draft either LT or Vick, who would you take with the number one pick, even if you had a QB or just resigned your top HB? I think the answer hands down is Vick. He is hands down the most electrifying athlete in the world, yes WORLD.

I don't care who your QB is or what the situation is, you DO NOT pass up on a special franchise type player like Vince. You make it work. David Carr is not a franchise player. He was, unfortunately, drafted like one though. Please don't pull a Portland and draft Sam Bowie because you don't need a 2-Guard.

Don't get me wrong, Bush is an outstanding player and an exceptional athlete, but the QB position is the most important position on the field. We are not super bowl contenders or even playoff contenders, so starting over is an option. I don't see any reason not to start over after a 2-14 season. What's the worst that could happen? We lose all 16 games? So we had a record 2 games worse than a year ago. Not that big of a deal, another number one overall? Sure thanks. Let's not even go into the sentimental side of the arguement since Vince is a true born and raised Houstonian and will continue to represent his hometown till the day he dies. And let's not get into the business side either. What other team has the potential to sell out every home game the season after going 2-14? A team that draft Vince Young does. Do you really think Yao Ming was drafted by the Rockets because of his talent? Moving on...

Sometimes you have to take 2 steps back before you can take that first step forward in the right direction. Vince won't make the immediate impact that Reggie can, but there is no way I pass on him. Luckily for all you Bush fans, I'm not making the decision. Go Texans!

[Grid]

the problem I have with starting over is that we are chock full of young talent, all we need is good coaching to get them off the ground.

Usually...you start over when you are chock full of veterans and reaching the cap limit trying to keep em and such. You dont start over after one bad year with a young team.

[tulexan]

I actually would have taken LT. Vick has proven that he can't stay healthy for an entire season while LT has proven that he is arguably the best player at his position. Vick's stats are more comparable to David Carr's when you look at them.

[raised_on_beans_n_rice]

Originally Posted by Grid

the problem I have with starting over is that we are chock full of young talent, all we need is good coaching to get them off the ground.

Usually...you start over when you are chock full of veterans and reaching the cap limit trying to keep em and such. You dont start over after one bad year with a young team.

All we need is good coaching? ALL WE NEED? No sir. That is not all we need. Good coaching helps but talent helps alot more. We need talent to win and if you think this team is a playoff contender based on that 7-9 season ages ago, you are sadly mistaken. People are looking for a miracle turn around with Bush. Even if we take Reggie bush, we still will not make the playoffs, especially in the AFC. Come on, take the blinders off! We suck! 2-14? Oh yea, it was the coach's fault. Gimme a break.

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by raised_on_beans_n_rice

If you had the chance to draft either LT or Vick, who would you take with the number one pick, even if you had a QB or just resigned your top HB? I think the answer hands down is Vick. He is hands down the most electrifying athlete in the world, yes WORLD.

I'd take LT--he is the best RB in the league. Vick is electrifying, but he hasn't developed into a solid QB even after 5 years in the league (which is why folks are distancing Young from Vick comparisons).

[Grid]

Originally Posted by raised_on_beans_n_rice

All we need is good coaching? ALL WE NEED? No sir. That is not all we need. Good coaching helps but talent helps alot more. We need talent to win and if you think this team is a playoff contender based on that 7-9 season ages ago, you are sadly mistaken. People are looking for a miracle turn around with Bush. Even if we take Reggie bush, we still will not make the playoffs, especially in the AFC. Come on, take the blinders off! We suck! 2-14? Oh yea, it was the coach's fault. Gimme a break.

yah... 7-9 the year before was a fluke. the slow but steady progress up until this season was a fluke. The rookie of the year nominations..the pro bowl appearences.. flukes. The great stats.. the great games we played against tough teams..flukes.

The flashes of talent from Carr, Johnson, Orr, Babin, Peek, Mathis, Gaffney, Brown and Earl.. lots of flukes.

Yes.. they all suck.. cut them all.. draft everyone from UT, and win the superbowl in 3 years.. that is the smart thing to do.

[raised_on_beans_n_rice]

Originally Posted by tulexan

I actually would have taken LT. Vick has proven that he can't stay healthy for an entire season while LT has proven that he is arguably the best player at his position. Vick's stats are more comparable to David Carr's when you look at them.

Vick is not as durable as Young. Have you seen the guy? He is a beast. I understand that the NFL hits ALOT harder than college but still, if your arguement is durability, I hope you're not a Bush supporter. If that doesn't have injury written all over it, I don't know what does. What is he like 5'9'' and a buck eighty soakin wet? But look at Warrick Dunn. Not very injury prone. Bottom line is injuries happen and they are a part of the game. That is not an arguement to stand beside.

And the stats of vick? When do they let him throw the ball? Are the Falons running stats comparable to the Texans? When they are let me know. And when David Carr can carry a team like Mr. Vick can, then compare what you will. Enough said.

[tulexan]

Originally Posted by raised_on_beans_n_rice

All we need is good coaching? ALL WE NEED? No sir. That is not all we need. Good coaching helps but talent helps alot more. We need talent to win and if you think this team is a playoff contender based on that 7-9 season ages ago, you are sadly mistaken. People are looking for a miracle turn around with Bush. Even if we take Reggie bush, we still will not make the playoffs, especially in the AFC. Come on, take the blinders off! We suck! 2-14? Oh yea, it was the coach's fault. Gimme a break.

That is not true at all. Coaching makes a huge difference. Joe Gibbs is notorious for being successful with teams that don't have the best talent, but they follow his system and they win Super Bowls. Mark Rypien and Doug Williams weren't HOFers, but they sure did look like them under Joe Gibbs.

[raised_on_beans_n_rice]

Originally Posted by Grid

yah... 7-9 the year before was a fluke. the slow but steady progress up until this season was a fluke. The rookie of the year nominations..the pro bowl appearences.. flukes. The great stats.. the great games we played against tough teams..flukes.

The flashes of talent from Carr, Johnson, Orr, Babin, Peek, Mathis, Gaffney, Brown and Earl.. lots of flukes.

Yes.. they all suck.. cut them all.. draft everyone from UT, and win the superbowl in 3 years.. that is the smart thing to do.

Did I say it was a fluke? We were headed on a good path. Focus on the word were. That went out the window when we released Sharper, Glenn, and Foreman. These guys were the core of our defense and the only hope we had of staying in close games. Now look at our D. Couldn't stop Vince and his Madison team if they wanted to. I know you didn't throw Babin in that list so I'm going to ignore that...

As for your "draft everyone from UT" statement, come on. Miami maybe. I'm no longhorns fan. I'm a Vince Young fan, get it right!

[raised_on_beans_n_rice]

Originally Posted by tulexan

That is not true at all. Coaching makes a huge difference. Joe Gibbs is notorious for being successful with teams that don't have the best talent, but they follow his system and they win Super Bowls. Mark Rypien and Doug Williams weren't HOFers, but they sure did look like them under Joe Gibbs.

Hey great point. I didn't know Gary Kubiak was the next coming of Joe Gibbs? When did he pass Landry, Lombardi, and Belichick? Was it while he was getting turned down for head coaching positions a few years back?

The fact is that there are only a few great coaches in this league and sorry to say, we don't have one of them. Excuse me if i don't jump for joy when the Texans hire a guy who has never been a head coach in the NFL before. Give him Reggie and we will win the super bowl! I'd rather give him a QB who doesn't tuck in and run when the primary reciever is covered. I'd rather give him a QB that knows what winning feels like. I'd rather give him a QB that has all the intangibles to be a great leader and a superstar in this league. But hey, that's just my crazy reasoning!

[infantrycak]

Originally Posted by raised_on_beans_n_rice

That went out the window when we released Sharper, Glenn, and Foreman. These guys were the core of our defense and the only hope we had of staying in close games.

I know you didn't throw Babin in that list so I'm going to ignore that...

I know you didn't throw Foreman in that list--the guy who watched the NFL from his couch last year because he couldn't get on another team even as a back-up.

[tulexan]

Originally Posted by raised_on_beans_n_rice

Hey great point. I didn't know Gary Kubiak was the next coming of Joe Gibbs? When did he pass Landry, Lombardi, and Belichick? Was it while he was getting turned down for head coaching positions a few years back?

The fact is that there are only a few great coaches in this league and sorry to say, we don't have one of them. Excuse me if i don't jump for joy when the Texans hire a guy who has never been a head coach in the NFL before. Give him Reggie and we will win the super bowl!

I'm not saying that he is the next coming of Joe Gibbs, but I was using him as a point that coaching makes a big difference. It isn't just Joe Gibbs either. Marvin Lewis has improved the Bengals, Lovie Smith has turned the Bears into a playoff team after being a laughing stock last year, Nick Saban turned the Dolphins into a winning team, and there are more examples too. Also funny how none of those guys were head coaches in their previous jobs.

[jerek]

I like parts of your argument because they are well written, and reading through your other threads, it seems clear to me that you have football/NFL knowledge, even if I don't agree with your take on Young. That said,

(a) QB is the single most important position out of 21 others, but it is hardly the end-all, be-all, requisite for success. The Ravens and the Bucs have both recently won Super Bowls on the strength of their defenses and running games while employing very average QBs who simply didn't screw the game up. Even Tom Brady, while decidedly a great QB, is a very unflashy, no-scrambling, not-strong-armed QB who just makes right decisions and comes up big in the clutch. Hasselback is as unflashy as they get, Delhomme the same, and Plummer is very comparable to Carr in virtually every respect of his game and the first four years of their careers. Perpetual bad *** Mr. Peyton Manning got smoked the first playoff game he played this year. If this does not give you pause to reevaluate your stance on the QB in the "vital" role of successful teams, I am not sure what else will. Important, sure, but hardly all consuming.

(2) Vick's limited success has come in streaks and his playoff runs amidst one of the very worst divisions/weakest schedules in the NFL. NFL defenses have figured him out and until he improves his reads and his accuracy, he is a one-trick pony. I would hardly tout Vick as much of an improvement over Carr.

(3) We have already been over the Portland/Sam Bowie thing on this board and it still isn't relevant. BPA is relevant in basketball (5 men on the court, easy to play two of one position at once) and even moreso in light of the different cap/contract structure in the NBA. In the NFL, in fielding eleven players on both sides of the ball and position skill being much more static, you have to draft by position needed, even if you and every GM and the queen of England are all sold on Vince being a first-ballot HOFer before the guy even takes an NFL snap.

(4) I know that your Yao Ming argument wasn't meant to be the crux of your post, but it completely nullifies that segment of it. Yao, even when healthy, has been a substantial disappointment from a production vs. potential standpoint: the 7'6" freak of nature that just hasn't lived up to expectations yet. When I go to Rockets games on my cheap seats it is easy to move into the VIP seats because THEY ARE ALL EMPTY. The Rockets are in the bottom of the West and have never made it far into the playoffs with Yao as their "franchise" center. Meanwhile, what would our home games look like if we were WINNING?

(5) Your avatar is cute, but I hate it because it supports Vince Young, and by association I have come to hate you.

Kidding, guys! Don't be mad. It's all good. I understand the appeal of Vince, and as much as there are a lot of valid reasons to take him, there are more not to.

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by jerek

I like parts of your argument because they are well written, and reading through your other threads, it seems clear to me that you have football/NFL knowledge, even if I don't agree with your take on Young. That said.

You get the diplomat of the day award.

[raised_on_beans_n_rice]

Who made a bigger impact on the Texans, Foreman or Babin? I'd say Foreman without blinking. Babin's tribal arm bands must symbolize all those RB's ripping thru his arm tackles. And we traded up to get this guy? How do you still have a job Charley? At least we didn't waste draft picks on Foreman.

[Kaiser Toro]

Originally Posted by raised_on_beans_n_rice

Who made a bigger impact on the Texans, Foreman or Babin? I'd say Foreman without blinking. Babin's tribal arm bands must symbolize all those RB's ripping thru his arm tackles. And we traded up to get this guy? How do you still have a job Charley? At least we didn't waste draft picks on Foreman.

Boo hiss on that one. Babin started to come on at the end of year after coming back from the injury. Foreman had been in the league for years.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by raised_on_beans_n_rice

Did I say it was a fluke? We were headed on a good path. Focus on the word were. That went out the window when we released Sharper, Glenn, and Foreman. These guys were the core of our defense and the only hope we had of staying in close games. Now look at our D. Couldn't stop Vince and his Madison team if they wanted to. I know you didn't throw Babin in that list so I'm going to ignore that...

As for your "draft everyone from UT" statement, come on. Miami maybe. I'm no longhorns fan. I'm a Vince Young fan, get it right!

so the loss of three 30+ year old players makes you think that rebuilding is the best course of action? you realize that it was our offense that led us to that 7-9 season in 2004 right? Yet you are claiming that our downfall was the loss of 3 players on defense?

It was coaching and a lack of veteran leadership that hurt the team. You dont need to rebuild your team to acquire either of these.

[raised_on_beans_n_rice]

(4) I know that your Yao Ming argument wasn't meant to be the crux of your post, but it completely nullifies that segment of it. Yao, even when healthy, has been a substantial disappointment from a production vs. potential standpoint: the 7'6" freak of nature that just hasn't lived up to expectations yet. When I go to Rockets games on my cheap seats it is easy to move into the VIP seats because THEY ARE ALL EMPTY. The Rockets are in the bottom of the West and have never made it far into the playoffs with Yao as their "franchise" center. Meanwhile, what would our home games look like if we were WINNING?

Had to address this first. You misunderstood my point. The reason the Rockets drafted Yao was because of his income potential, same thing with Roger Clemens and the Astros. They make money for the franchise. Vince would undoubtedly do the same. Undoubtedly as in...WITHOUT A DOUBT! People are still hungry for football in Houston and Vince would quench their thirst, even if it ends up not working out.

Your other points were admirable, not well thought out but admirable. You are right about the Superbowl and the QB situation. You don't need a top QB to win a superbowl. But you better have a Raven's type defense and we are light years and 10 players away from that (my man DRob holdin it down!). Unless we can some how get 10 great defensive players with one pick, I take Vince. A proven leader who can carry a team when all else fails. Of course, this won't happen soon but I guarantee you it will happen for whichever team he plays for.

I would hardly tout Vick as much of an improvement over Carr.

Wow. No comment on that one. Take me to your dealer.

Moving on to the draft by need argument. If you don't take Vince, trade the pick. There is no reason to draft a RB when you have DD and obviously the Texans like him and his new contract extension.

Number 5 is your best arguement but you screwed it up by apologizing afterwards so there went that.

Thanks for the response by the way. I needed some time to kill.

[raised_on_beans_n_rice]

Originally Posted by Grid

so the loss of three 30+ year old players makes you think that rebuilding is the best course of action? you realize that it was our offense that led us to that 7-9 season in 2004 right? Yet you are claiming that our downfall was the loss of 3 players on defense?

It was coaching and a lack of veteran leadership that hurt the team. You dont need to rebuild your team to acquire either of these.

First off, they were not just any 30+ players. Forget about Foreman for now but Glenn was a Pro-Bowl corner and Sharper let your team in tackles the year previous, and not to mention the leadership that they provided and we so obviously needed throughout the season. They were main contributors to the defense and we're clearly missed. But its ok cuz we got the Jamaican Sensation Morlon Greenwood and Antwan "brain like Swift" Peek to replace Sharper and a fast clutz in Philip Buchanon to replace a proven veteran corner.

Second, these were the same coaches that led them to your 7-9 glory days so why did the offense struggle? Bottom line is that we sucked on both sides of the ball. That calls for a re-evaluation for every position. I am tired of David Carr having a free pass. He needs some competition. Banks isn't great and sometimes he looks better than Carr because he actually makes a decision and throws the ball! Granted, most are intercepted but still he lets it fly. David is, as we all know, damaged goods. Bring on the new guy!

[tulexan]

Yao's marketing potential may have been a factor in their decision to draft him, but it was not the sole reason. Just like the Astros signing Roger Clemens. Roger did win the Cy Young with the Astros remember? Yao was drafted because he had unbelievable marketing potential, and was also a potentially great NBA player. The whole argument about how Yao has been a disappointment goes back to my argument that we shouldn't be comparing prospects to HOFers. Yao may be a disappointment if you compare his numbers with some of the all time greats, but he is consistently one of the best centers in the league and can hold his own against anyone. Yao and T-Mac were not the reasons why we failed in the playoffs. In fact those two played better or just as good as any other player in the playoffs. The Rockets problems were because they had no PF and an undersized SG.

But back to the Texans. Even those two great marketing gold mines (Yao and Roger), had trouble filling their respective arena and stadium when the team was struggling. People aren't going to watch a losing product regardless of who is on the field or the court. The idea that people will gladly watch Vince Young be a failure in the NFL just because he is from Houston and won the National Championship with Texas is ludicrous.

And comparing drafting Bush to Young because of Davis and Carr also does not make sense because Young and Carr can't and won't be on the field at the same time. Bush and Davis can and will be on the field at the same time. With Vince you are adding by subtracting. With Reggie you are adding by adding.