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Old 01-24-2006   #1
Nighthawk
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Default Trade Carr? What's best for the team?

I was thinking maybe the BEST USE of Carr for this team would be what he could pull in trade, draft choices and players. But now I begin to get a sense that he isn't worth all that much on the market.

I mean, if you could get a first and second round pick for him (is that ridiculous?) wouldn't it be worth trading him since we're 2-3 years rebuilding anyway?

This is what I don't really understand about the Carr fans. If you're Texans fans first, then what you want is what's best for the franchise. And, since we're rebuilding and do not expect to contend for 3 years anyway, why wouldn't you trade Carr for some draft picks and/or young players you could use to build the team.

I'm asking why wouldn't you put the team first, Carr second?
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Old 01-24-2006   #2
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According to this Miami Herald article, no team will take his contract. No one thinks he's worth $24.5 million the next 3 years. They quote an NFL source that says "his contract isn't tradeable."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...s/13680415.htm
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Old 01-24-2006   #3
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Its hard to say to be honest with you i feel if we trade carr and if we are able to get a second rounder for him i think we come out smelling like roses. its sad what happened to carr he was supposed to be good but what the scouts forgot is that he never faced nobody in college that is why he did so good his senior season. i think back thinking we could of had peppers J Peppers and we dont and thats what hurts the most out of all of this. i really dont think there are any carr haters i just think people dislike him because he has been a major bust and we could of had J Peppers. oh but i went off topic may be? if its for the best interest of the team hell yeah trade carr may be we can salvage something with that aswfull 1st overall pick of this franchise.
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Old 01-24-2006   #4
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we'll never get fair value for David it makes more sense to keep him, try to rebuild his value back with better coaching & complimentry players. As similar as he is to Plummer he too could take a team to the Superbowl because I feel at the same point in their careers he still rates higher in most areas
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Old 01-24-2006   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover
we'll never get fair value for David
What exactly is fair value for a QB who went 2-14 in his 4th year as a pro?

That just shows you what other NFL talent evaluators think of Carr.


I know, I know...

the Carr loyalists will come out in herds saying, "o but his talent level around him." or "Omg His OL" or "he had bad coaching"

Thing is, there has to be some player accountability too. How much accountability has he accepted? Why don't his teammates rally around him? Why is there a culture of losing forming around his leadership?


Now, sure, I want Vince Young here. Not so much because he is Vince Young, but because with the #1 pick in the draft, you want the person you are drafting to be a primary handler of the ball. If Leinhart gives the Texans a better long term positive outlook for the future, by all means draft him. I just simply don't believe in Carr and I don't know that his teammates do either.

Last edited by Glacier; 01-24-2006 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 01-24-2006   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk

I mean, if you could get a first and second round pick for him (is that ridiculous?) wouldn't it be worth trading him since we're 2-3 years rebuilding anyway?


I'm asking why wouldn't you put the team first, Carr second?
Most Carr supporters don't see this as a total rebuild. We've got some useful talent. The O-Line can run block, we've got three Hosses, DD, Wells, and Morency. We've got a #1 reciever, a #2 reciever, and a #3 reciever. We've got a Corner, a linebacker, and maybe a hidden Gem on the D-line, who needs a little help. Wow, after typing that, I realize we only need a quarterback, and we're good to go.


But in order to "trade" David, We've got to Sign David. Then this second Rounder is going to have to be worth a former #1 (who some people won't call a bust yet), the $5.5 million cap hit he is going to cost us, plus whatever we agree to pay this second round draft pick.

Personally for that kind of hit the only thing I'd take for Carr, would be Ricky Williams.... he's the only one I see as worth the hit. On the field.. his mind is so flaky, and what he does off field is questionable... so....

We could take Kerry Collins, and that young reciever a few fans are interested in, Get rid of Banks, and that will probably be worth it.
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Old 01-24-2006   #7
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Why would you trade Carr??? I can absolutely live with this guys stats!!!! Simple math says that behind a horrible Offensive and I mean OFFENSIVE Line he has still managed to throw for 6,019 yds. ( 04-05 ); completed 60.9% ( Avg. ) of his passes; 30 TD's; 25 int's; 80.4 ( Avg. ) QB Rating and did this while absorbing 117 SACKS ( 04-05 ). Thank god they don't keep track of hurries and dropped passes!!!!! We didn't have a 1,000 yard rusher this year and AJ, our only real WR was out early and only accounted for 688 yds. receiving and 2 TD's this year.

I can only admire Carr for not pulling a Peyton Manning after each game and throwing his lousy a-- OL under the bus. Manning endured 1 game where his OL failed him and he came apart at the seams!!!! Where do you think Manning's mind would be if he had to endure that for 64 games plus 16 pre-season games????? I wonder how fast DADDY could get him out of Indy???? This is why Carr has the respect of his teammates and the only people throwing him under the bus are a percentage of the fans, who just don't get it!!!

I'm sorry, my vote stays with Carr and I only hope, that between D. Reeves, Kubiak and CC they can finally find a way to put some HEALTHY weapons and protection around Carr so we can really get a read on him. For now, there isn't another QB, who could have, under these circumstances, come in here and won big ( By big, I mean 5-8 wins ) with this supporting cast.
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Old 01-24-2006   #8
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Kubiak should see what Carr can do. He has a good record with qb's, I want to see what he thinks of Carr.
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Old 01-24-2006   #9
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Kubiak and Reeves have both gone on record as being Carr supporters.
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Old 01-24-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEXANFAN23435
Why would you trade Carr??? I can absolutely live with this guys stats!!!! Simple math says that behind a horrible Offensive and I mean OFFENSIVE Line he has still managed to throw for 6,019 yds. ( 04-05 ); completed 60.9% ( Avg. ) of his passes; 30 TD's; 25 int's; 80.4 ( Avg. ) QB Rating and did this while absorbing 117 SACKS ( 04-05 ). Thank god they don't keep track of hurries and dropped passes!!!!! We didn't have a 1,000 yard rusher this year and AJ, our only real WR was out early and only accounted for 688 yds. receiving and 2 TD's this year.

I can only admire Carr for not pulling a Peyton Manning after each game and throwing his lousy a-- OL under the bus. Manning endured 1 game where his OL failed him and he came apart at the seams!!!! Where do you think Manning's mind would be if he had to endure that for 64 games plus 16 pre-season games????? I wonder how fast DADDY could get him out of Indy???? This is why Carr has the respect of his teammates and the only people throwing him under the bus are a percentage of the fans, who just don't get it!!!

I'm sorry, my vote stays with Carr and I only hope, that between D. Reeves, Kubiak and CC they can finally find a way to put some HEALTHY weapons and protection around Carr so we can really get a read on him. For now, there isn't another QB, who could have, under these circumstances, come in here and won big ( By big, I mean 5-8 wins ) with this supporting cast.

Good post, I'm with you. Let's trade down. But if you just have to use the pick, take Vince........ the bold letters explain why.

Or trade down, and take cutler..... that darn senior bowl has got me seriously looking at him too.
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Old 01-24-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEXANFAN23435
I can only admire Carr for not pulling a Peyton Manning after each game and throwing his lousy a-- OL under the bus.
I agree with your thought here Texan. And I think it tells us something about
the Carr psyche - he is so use to getting beat up and has such low expectations about his line actually protecting him, that unlike Manning who is accustomed to the luxury of consistant pass protection from his OL and has an outburst on a day it isn't there, he routinely takes one for the team every Sunday and doesn't complaim post-game. He does have some childest outbursts on the field now and then (on which all the Carr antagonists point to a lack of "leadership"), but this is a far better way to vent his frustrations
than blasting the OL in TV interviews.
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Old 01-24-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nunusguy
He does have some childest outbursts on the field now and then (on which all the Carr antagonists point to a lack of "leadership"), but this is a far better way to vent his frustrations than blasting the OL in TV interviews.
This is a funny one IMO. Folks were critical of Carr not getting in his OL's face for quite a while. Then he does it a couple of times and he is behaving childishly according to many of the same folks. His little outburst after the horrible 3rd qtr of the Chicago game seemed to have quite an impact on the OL in 2004. Classic case of not going to get it right either way.
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Old 01-24-2006   #13
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The point is, even if Carr is good, WE DON'T NEED HIM RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE HE'S WORTH SOMETHING IN TRADE. Sorry for the caps, but everyone seems to miss this point. If Carr is as good as folks around here say then he ought to bring a fair amt in trade. You've got Banks, a solid vet and the untried Ragone sitting on the bench. You're not going to contend for 2 years anyway, maybe 3 AND YOU NEED EXTRA DRAFT PICKS AND/OR TOP QUALITY PLAYERS.

The simplest solution is trade Carr for picks and speed up the rebuilding. I'd use DD this way if he was worth anything, but I don't imagine he is. What really worries me is that maybe Carr isn't worth much in trade either.
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Old 01-24-2006   #14
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In reply to the very first post. What is you're deal, you want to contend in 2 or 3 yrs. I want our team to be mentioned in wild card discussions next yr. You wanna know what's best for the team, wins, and I for one don't want to wait a few yrs. for them, the sooner the better. I could care less if Young won games a few yrs. down the road. I want wins next yr. and you know what I don't think Young would be able to give that to us. Also we don't know what will happen next yr. in the draft or maybe just maybe we end up with Young later on in his career a la Kubiak. So please stop acting like we are in desperate need of rebuilding. We have a good team and with the coaching there will be dramatic improvement.
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Old 01-24-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk
The point is, even if Carr is good, WE DON'T NEED HIM RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE HE'S WORTH SOMETHING IN TRADE. Sorry for the caps, but everyone seems to miss this point. If Carr is as good as folks around here say then he ought to bring a fair amt in trade. You've got Banks, a solid vet and the untried Ragone sitting on the bench. You're not going to contend for 2 years anyway, maybe 3 AND YOU NEED EXTRA DRAFT PICKS AND/OR TOP QUALITY PLAYERS.

The simplest solution is trade Carr for picks and speed up the rebuilding. I'd use DD this way if he was worth anything, but I don't imagine he is. What really worries me is that maybe Carr isn't worth much in trade either.
The simplest solution would be to let him go in free agency. You would get screwed in a trade because the other team would have more leverage due to his exorbrant contract. Banks and solid vet. shouldn't. Those two words just don't belong together. Ragone yes you're right he is untried, but shamesticks on you for your lack of faith in you're team.
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Old 01-24-2006   #16
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Default Here is an article advocating trading Carr.

I don't think the author necessarily figured out whether this potential trade was feasible under the cap or contracts but I am offering it up to the MB because the title of the article is perhaps the repulsive headline ever on the Bush v. Young debate or maybe in all of sportswriting evaaaar ........


Link: "Solution to Texans’ problems lost in their nose hairs?"


Ew. Nose hairs. Is this what they are teaching in journalism classes these days?????

The article in part:

Quote:
USC’s Reggie Bush is a good football player. That’s like saying Lance Armstrong can ride a bike.

I understand how tempting Bush’s Heisman Trophy, 8.7 yards per carry and the reputation of being the greatest college running back in 30 years can be to a team like the Texans. A team that went 2-14 this season is bound to see an athlete like Bush and salivate enough to hold an Olympic swim meet. Nevertheless, the Texans really don’t need a running back, even one with as much potential as Bush. Houston’s rushing attack, led by Dominick Davis, averaged 4.2 yards per carry and 113.5 yards per game – good enough for 11th and 15th in the league, respectively.

The Texans’ offensive line gave up 68 sacks this season and only allowed quarterback David Carr to throw for 2,488 yards and 14 touchdowns, both ranked in the last third of the league.

If only Houston knew where to find a quarterback that could compensate for a mediocre line with his quickness but still had the ability to throw for 250-300 yards per game. You know, the guy who torched Bush’s USC team for 267 passing yards and 200 rushing yards in the national championship declared himself eligible for the draft. Boy, it would be nice to have him, but I doubt people in Texas would care enough to want him to go play there.

Wait … he played at Texas, didn’t he? People there loved him, didn’t they? And his name isn’t “the guy.” It’s Vince Young, and he’s the key for Houston to become a winning franchise.

With a fan base already established and his incredible college accomplishments, Young is the obvious choice for the franchise to rebuild from, both in terms of winning and financially. People will flock to Reliant Stadium to see their in-state hero lead their team out of the NFL cellar and into respectability.

The team recently signed Carr to an extension through 2008, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t become trade bait for another early pick in the draft. The New York Jets could use a good quarterback, and they have the fourth pick. Trading Carr for that is a great move, as the Texans could fix their main problem: the offensive line


There should never be a reason why a sportswriter should use the words "nose hairs" in a headline or article. Ever. Even if you are in college and it cracks your own self up. Or if you have been drinking, or have a deadline or something. I won't even mention the cheesy beginning of the article.

(Sorry to be cracking on a northren Texans fan tho. )
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Old 01-25-2006   #17
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I don't think the Texans will trade David Carr. I don't want the Texans to trade David Carr. But, that's beside the point. It would be stooopid for the Texans to trade David Carr. Let me explain.

In order to trade David Carr, the Texans must first pickup the option on his contract by paying David either an $8 million or a $5.5 million bonus. As explained to me by Keith Weiland of houstonprofootball.com, part of Carr's bonus can be spread over the past 2005 season as the Texans had cap room from last season available. If the $8 mil bonus were picked up, Carr would be under contract for 3 seasons. But the bonus can be spread out over 4, or $2 million/season.

Now the Texans could just choose the 2-year option, which would pay Carr a bonus of $5.5 mil. That bonus would be spread out over 3 seasons, or $1.833 million/season. But, possible trade suitors would offer the Texans less for a player under contract for 2 seasons, as opposed to 3. So let's pose the question: Could the Texans get more value in trade for Carr than they could if the bonus money was used for free agents?

If Carr is traded this offseason, after the 3 year option is picked up, the unamoritized portion of the bonus ($6 million) becomes due against the cap. What could the Texans get for David. A 3rd round pick? A second round selection & a pot smoking holistic healer? A mid-1st rounder? Opinions vary. But would whatever David retrieve in trade be worth more than what the Texans could pick up with an extra $6 million in cap room? That's what the Texans would have free if the option is not picked up and David is allowed to become a free agent. This is just my opinion, but I think the club could be improved more with vet free agents than anything the Texans could get in trade for Carr.

It's been proposed by NFL.com, among others, that Carr could be franchised and then traded. Yeah, that's possible. The numbers for the QB franchise tag aren't out yet. But, it's reasonable for that number to shoot up to 8 figures, considering the big extensions that Manning, Vick, & Brady have picked up in the past year. So Carr's cap number for the Texans, or any team that traded for him, would likely be over $10 million for the '06 season. Of course the team that trades for David could give him a longer-term contract, but why would Carr agree to that? He'd already be getting a big payday in '06, and another shot at free agency in '07 when the salary cap may have gone away. No team trades for Carr if he comes with a $10 mil cap hit. Basically, Carr would have a no trade one-year contract for whatever the franchise tag number is. Franchising Carr is a no go.

So the Carr question is answered two fold. Give David the bonus and continue to build around him through the draft. Or cut #8 loose now, draft a QB, and hit the free agent market. Trading in Carr is not a viable option.
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Old 01-25-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
I don't think the Texans will trade David Carr. I don't want the Texans to trade David Carr. But, that's beside the point. It would be stooopid for the Texans to trade David Carr. Let me explain.

In order to trade David Carr, the Texans must first pickup the option on his contract by paying David either an $8 million or a $5.5 million bonus. As explained to me by Keith Weiland of houstonprofootball.com, part of Carr's bonus can be spread over the past 2005 season as the Texans had cap room from last season available. If the $8 mil bonus were picked up, Carr would be under contract for 3 seasons. But the bonus can be spread out over 4, or $2 million/season.

Now the Texans could just choose the 2-year option, which would pay Carr a bonus of $5.5 mil. That bonus would be spread out over 3 seasons, or $1.833 million/season. But, possible trade suitors would offer the Texans less for a player under contract for 2 seasons, as opposed to 3. So let's pose the question: Could the Texans get more value in trade for Carr than they could if the bonus money was used for free agents?

If Carr is traded this offseason, after the 3 year option is picked up, the unamoritized portion of the bonus ($6 million) becomes due against the cap. What could the Texans get for David. A 3rd round pick? A second round selection & a pot smoking holistic healer? A mid-1st rounder? Opinions vary. But would whatever David retrieve in trade be worth more than what the Texans could pick up with an extra $6 million in cap room? That's what the Texans would have free if the option is not picked up and David is allowed to become a free agent. This is just my opinion, but I think the club could be improved more with vet free agents than anything the Texans could get in trade for Carr.

It's been proposed by NFL.com, among others, that Carr could be franchised and then traded. Yeah, that's possible. The numbers for the QB franchise tag aren't out yet. But, it's reasonable for that number to shoot up to 8 figures, considering the big extensions that Manning, Vick, & Brady have picked up in the past year. So Carr's cap number for the Texans, or any team that traded for him, would likely be over $10 million for the '06 season. Of course the team that trades for David could give him a longer-term contract, but why would Carr agree to that? He'd already be getting a big payday in '06, and another shot at free agency in '07 when the salary cap may have gone away. No team trades for Carr if he comes with a $10 mil cap hit. Basically, Carr would have a no trade one-year contract for whatever the franchise tag number is. Franchising Carr is a no go.

So the Carr question is answered two fold. Give David the bonus and continue to build around him through the draft. Or cut #8 loose now, draft a QB, and hit the free agent market. Trading in Carr is not a viable option.
The only problem I see w/ this is.....Hypothetically, what if we give Carr the bonus and sign him for 3 more years, he still sucks, and we let him leave through FA after his contract is up. What do you get for him then? Possibly three more losing or mediocre seasons. How good would that 3rd round, 2nd round, Ricky Williams, or mid-1st round pick look then?

My point is, the Texans must decide if they want to take a chance to see if Carr can improve OR take a chance to see if a new QB can grow and lead the team more capable than Carr. If they feel that Carr may not cut it, then the decision should be simple: cut your losses and trade him now while there is still a chance to get SOME value for him. The fact that you will be losing some money is irrelevant b/c if it doesn't work out, you'll be losinig ALL the money w/ nothing to show for it. Of course, wouldn't be the first time in four years that they have wasted money and got nothing in return.
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Old 01-25-2006   #19
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Well what's funny is, after 2004, no one was bitching, but after 2005 where everyone sucked, all of a sudden he's shown us nothing?
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Old 01-25-2006   #20
TreWardTxn
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All this NFL accounting is explained very well, but the bottom line is, if the Texans decide to take a QB to replace him, then Carr has to go. No they will not get fair value, which would be at least a first round pick, but its a strategy called folding your hand and cutting losses. Deciding to stick with Carr because of his salary and potential cap hit is the worst decision this frachise can make. Carr needs to go to a new team, with new teammates who he can earn the trust of. Everyone wants to compare his situation to Jake Plummer's, but it is quite different. Jake went from a losing team to a winning team, new fans, teammates, expectations, he got a second chance as an NFL QB. Attempting to reform Carr here is not the same, too much baggage. I think the guy can be a good QB, just likely not for the Texans, sad as that is. The team does not have the winning tradition yet, it is building that, along with building the team, as opposed to tweaking. If you change the defense twice in two years, you are at least another two years away from any sort of championship games, much less, the playoffs. Kubiak can help a QB with mechanics and progressions, I don't know how good he is at psychology. Find a clean slate and get a new start at it...

Drew Brees came to the Chargers when they were in the NFL basement, he's been to a Pro bowl, the Texans are yet to do anything, what's wrong with this...
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