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Old 01-22-2006   #1
Corrosion
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Default Why insist on a LT in the 1st

The Texans roster is full of holes as im sure many will agree . And the O-line is particularly weak .... we all know that . But where my opinion differs is where that weakness actually is .

I really think that Pitts played very well after being moved back to LT after the failed Riley experiment . He may not be your "Franchise Tackle" but he did a good job late in the season against top flight competition ...Freeny (Colts), Reggie Hayward (Jags) Terrell Suggs (Ravens) .... didnt allow a sack to any of them . Pitts ISNT the problem .

The Biggest weakness is Center , Steve McKinney is NOT a starting calibur NFL center and his natural position is Guard and a marginal starter at that position . I'd like to see him replaced or better yet released .

There is more wrong w/ the Texans O-line than just McKinney @ center , the Guard positions are just as poor ....Todd Wade is servicable when he's healthy ... But has been injured more often than not . Milford Brown and Fred Weary would probably not start for any other team in the NFL . They just wont do .

Another point about drafting a Tackle in the first round .... Whoever that may be .... It would be HIGHLY doubtful that he would start next season in front of Pitts or Wiegert .... there is no immediate pay off to the pick .

Im not against drafting a tackle on day one in this draft but I am against spending the first rounder on a player who isnt likely to see the field much in the coming season . If one of the top 5 prospects were to fall to the second round then I would pull the trigger .

As for which position to use the #1 on .... There are several positions that could use an upgrade .... with the possibility of switching to a 4-3 a DE wouldnt be a bad choice , Mario Williams anyone ? Bush or Young .... either would be a good pick , although Young would have no immediate pay off either . There isnt a True 4-3 MLB on the roster .... Hawk would be nice . And they could sure use a real threat across from AJ at WR .
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Old 01-22-2006   #2
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I agree that we don't need a tackle in the first round. i think we should take
Max Jean-Giles the OG with our second round pick. He is pro bowl caliber and i think thats the problem with our line. we have no pro bowl caliber talent anywhere on the line, it doesn't have to be a preimer left tackle but a priemer guard would do wonders for the team, i always felt the interior of the line was the problem.

I think Jean-Giles would open up mammoth holes for Bush to run all over(like the plug)
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Old 01-22-2006   #3
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I personally hope we can pick up Bentley from the Saints in FA that would put a two time Pro Bowl center on this team. I also still think we should draft at least one OL on the first day.

It will take a few drafts to fix this line. We need start sooner than later.
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Old 01-22-2006   #4
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Originally Posted by corrosion
I really think that Pitts played very well after being moved back to LT after the failed Riley experiment . He may not be your "Franchise Tackle" but he did a good job late in the season against top flight competition.
how long should we have to wait before we acquire our "franchise" left tackle? do we throw around 5-7 round picks at O-line and hope to find our guy for the future, or even hope that one becomes available as a free agent? these things are extremely rare. we'd have more luck trying to trade dave ragone for peyton manning. our offensive line as a unit is the biggest hole on this team, and this is finally a heavy draft to fix that. when will the next draft be that we're in position to grab our franchise LT and probably a starting G in the same day?

pitts has been decent. and i agree that the interior is a much bigger problem at the moment. pitts was also pretty good at LG and i think he'd be great at RT. wouldnt that put the hole back at LT? i for one am just tired of the procrastination to build an offense. every season fans complain about us not building an offensive line, and then every offseason new flavor of the month draft prospects come out and the thought turns to "our line wasnt THAT bad, we can fix it later in the draft ... maybe".

it's been posted elsewhere that the top LT's in the league are first rounders and the majority of the starters are first rounders. i'm not very interested in hoping a LT falls to the second for us. i'd be more inclined to hope carpenter or a solid TE fall to us.
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Old 01-22-2006   #5
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I dont think that people really understand what the term franchise LT means. The person most resintly drafted to be a franchise LT has been Robert Gallery, and if you all recall, he did start as a rookie, so did Jordan Gross who was reported to be a very good LT but not a franchise one. If we had had a LT the caliber of Ferguson in the draft in 02, we would not have AJ on our team we would have a franchise OL.
I think, Pitts is a very solid RG: he is very good in pass pro, and he is a solid run blocker. When Weigert is healthy, he is at least an average LG, more of a run blocker, but isnt a real liability in pass pro. Todd Wade is a beast of a run blocker, and hopefully when we get these top notched coaches that McNair says he is spending money on, then he can hopefully get back to playing the way he played in Miami that made us want to spend all that money on him. Get Bentley to play Center and draft a Brick with the most athleticism of any LT you will ever see play and he is drawing comparisons to Ogden, Pace and Walter Jones, basically the best 3 LTs in the NFL. Pick up and extra gaurd or 2 with a 3rd or 4th.
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Old 01-22-2006   #6
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I suspect that Pitts has SEEMED to be better at LT than he might be, due to the use of a 3 step drop passing offense. He doesn't have to lock his guy up very long in that situation (how incredibly bad does that mean the rest of them are?). IMO, it would be a bad mistake to assume that Pitts is an acceptable option at LT. I suspect he would be an above average RT though. If we start to play with a REAL NFL passing offense and use 5 and 7 step drops, then a real good LT is essential and those are typically found in the 1st round and usually in the top 15 picks of it. Assuming we don't pick Bush and trade down (not what I expect us to do) to around the 4-7 spot, then take the best LT available. Then with the second either the best pass rush DE or the Best TE available. Then the next pick get the one we didn't with the second and then the best OG. After that go mostly defense.
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Old 01-22-2006   #7
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Because their are LTs worth a first pick and Pitts is not a true LT.

We could trade the very first pick and pick up 2-3 more players. Why invest all this much into 1 pick when we can get more and a Top O-lineman
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Old 01-22-2006   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edo783
I suspect that Pitts has SEEMED to be better at LT than he might be, due to the use of a 3 step drop passing offense. He doesn't have to lock his guy up very long in that situation (how incredibly bad does that mean the rest of them are?). IMO, it would be a bad mistake to assume that Pitts is an acceptable option at LT. I suspect he would be an above average RT though. If we start to play with a REAL NFL passing offense and use 5 and 7 step drops, then a real good LT is essential and those are typically found in the 1st round and usually in the top 15 picks of it.

Yes.
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Old 01-22-2006   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldeagle
Because their are LTs worth a first pick and Pitts is not a true LT.

We could trade the very first pick and pick up 2-3 more players. Why invest all this much into 1 pick when we can get more and a Top O-lineman
The most simple yet rich statement possible.

I've said before and will say again:The FO ignored the line last year looking forward to this draft and now they can not only get the best T prospect available but possibly an extra 2nd and next year 1st. What fortune and yet they might want a playmaker? If they don't trade the pick the disappointment from my perspective will be off the charts. Just my opinion. Give me Addai with the extra 2nd if you have to have yet another RB. There are so many good backs coming out it makes no sense to take one first overall when you have so many holes anyways.
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Old 01-22-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cap1
I personally hope we can pick up Bentley from the Saints in FA that would put a two time Pro Bowl center on this team. I also still think we should draft at least one OL on the first day.

It will take a few drafts to fix this line. We need start sooner than later.

LT is truly a skilled player. I don't think you are going to get a guy who can play that position at an NFL level out of the draft... I wouldn't spend a high draft pick.

L'Charles would be a great pick, making the guys around him look better.
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Old 01-22-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
LT is truly a skilled player. I don't think you are going to get a guy who can play that position at an NFL level out of the draft... I wouldn't spend a high draft pick.
No. :brickwall

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
L'Charles would be a great pick, making the guys around him look better.
Yes.
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Old 01-22-2006   #12
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I don't get why everybody insists on LT in the first rd. either. Yes, D'brick is a great prospect, but like with any other argument he is not the only option. As far as pass blocking goes he is superb, but the question is on his run blocking ability, which is extremely important in the Zone blocking scheme. His size should not be a concern, but there are other great tackles in the draft this yr. and we could pick one up in the later rounds. This season the best addition to our line was Hodgdon who was drafted in the 5th. The thing is we use a very different blocking scheme than other teams so we can get by with different OT's like Colledge who will more than likely be around in the third, or Ojinnaka who would probably be around in the fourth.

Max-jean guiles would not fit the scheme, Setterstorm should be the Guard this team targets. and Enslayer at center. These three additions would solidify our lineup greatly.

The thing is we don't need to take the first rd tackle we can improve without it. If we were to trade down our first rd should be used on defense. Sometimes I think we should hold a class to ejumacate alot of ppl on the board.
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Old 01-22-2006   #13
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i just think its funny with some "Fans " that blame the poor QB play on the coaching and O-Line Play has nothing to do with coaching if it applies to one it applies to all thats how i look at things. may be a new system our Line Will Play like the KC chiefs Line.
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Old 01-22-2006   #14
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i just think with Pitts at LT, adding Bentley or Hutchinson in free agency, and adding a Max Jean Giles in the second round would give our line some real wallop, and if a Jeremy Trueblood falls to the 3rd round i'd take him too.
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Old 01-22-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuffSoldier
I dont think that people really understand what the term franchise LT means. The person most resintly drafted to be a franchise LT has been Robert Gallery .......
I think, Pitts is a very solid RG: he is very good in pass pro, and he is a solid run blocker. .
Two things here .....

First Gallery hasnt looked all that great as of yet although its still early in his career he doesnt look like the #3 pick of the first round . The thing here is that not many linemen come out of college ready to step into the LT position . There is a huge learning curve and it generally takes 3-5 years for a player to reach his potential .

Second Pitts is better at tackle than guard .... Its his natural position and one he's played for the last 8 seasons in college and the NFL .... Started at the LT position the first 48 games of the Texans existance and wasnt moved to guard until the Riley experiment which was a complete and total failure .

Quote:
Originally Posted by edo783
I suspect that Pitts has SEEMED to be better at LT than he might be, due to the use of a 3 step drop passing offense. He doesn't have to lock his guy up very long in that situation (how incredibly bad does that mean the rest of them are?). IMO, it would be a bad mistake to assume that Pitts is an acceptable option at LT.

Early in the season i may have been in agreement with this .... But the Texans didnt use the 3 step drops all that much the second half of the season (After Riley was cut) ...... And since the O-line works as a unit not individuals wouldnt it be more likely that Pitts would look much better with someone other than Milford Brown or Fred Weary lining up at LG Both of them are pathetic in pass protection . (getting rid of McKinney would be nice too)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
LT is truly a skilled player. I don't think you are going to get a guy who can play that position at an NFL level out of the draft... I wouldn't spend a high draft pick.

L'Charles would be a great pick, making the guys around him look better.
I agree .... Not likely that anyone drafted this year would step directly into the starting LT position but looking to fill the spot via FA would be quite costly ....Remember what O. Pace was asking for ? ... Not to mention the TWO #1's that they would have had to give the Rams .


Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquescas
i just think with Pitts at LT, adding Bentley or Hutchinson in free agency, and adding a Max Jean Giles in the second round would give our line some real wallop, and if a Jeremy Trueblood falls to the 3rd round i'd take him too.
Getting Bentley and Hutchinson via FA and Max Jean Giles would almost instantly turn the Texans O-line from the worst to possibly the best in the NFL .
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Old 01-22-2006   #16
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keep in mind that with kubiak coming over as head coach there will be a lot of changes to come...first ya'll need to over Max Jean Giles because he will not be a texan as long as kubiak is the head coach...look at denver's roster...there is only ONE starting o-lineman over 300lbs...first thing first kubiak will tell every o-lineman to start dropping the weight so they will be better at pulling...we have no pulling guards or tackles...the best lineman we have is pitts and by denver's standards he is about 20 or so pounds overweight...start looking at guys like eslinger, setterstrom, mangold, and raiola to be the lineman we are likely to target...more athletic lineman who can move...not big fat guys who can't
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Old 01-23-2006   #17
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Guys, I don't think you realize what you really need to make your offensive line effective under Kubiak's regime.

I am a Denver Broncos fan first, but after living on the coastal bend I have fallen in love with Texas and Houston is my second football love. That being said, I am simply overjoyed that Kubiak went to Houston (as losing him is a very sad thing) of all possibilities. He will give your organization exactly what it needs. Kubiak has been behind the helm and calling the plays for one of the most successful offenses - most certainly the most successful running game - in the NFL over the past ten years. The zone-blocking scheme that Mike Shanahan and Alex Gibbs (ATL) thought up has been time-tested as the best system in the NFL... period.

You have to understand how the system works (or in this case how it is supposed to work) in order to make an assessment of what type of lineman you need. I can say quite simply that Max Jean-Giles is simply not the type of lineman you want. He is a fantastic talent, but he won't improve your running game. The same thing can be said about Hutchinson and Bentley for that matter. They simply don't fit the system.

The guy ahead of me got it straight, start looking at undersized lineman. You will only be draft lineman of that variety from now on. Greg Eslinger would be great with the first pick of the 3rd. Nick Mangold and Daryn Colledge are great as well.

About D'Brickashaw Ferguson, however, I have to say that he is the most perfect zone-blocking LT I have seen since Gary Zimmerman. His footwork, athleticism, hand placement, pass protection, and technique are perfect. PERFECT. Get used to the idea that "how well your line drive blocks is from now on useless." What matters is how well they can move laterally, how fast they are, how well they work together, and how technically sound they are. You will never, ever, ever, EVER find a better LT prospect for your scheme than Ferguson. The only person even close is Matt Lepsis (who you could probably get in FA easily) and he has reached his full potential.

With all that I can say about how good D'Brick would be in the offense Houston will have the joy of watching, I still say take Bush (explaination coming soon).

You should draft lineman that no one even talks about. Start looking at guys like Brando Twito in the 6th round. He is an oversized but very athletic TE from Pittsburg State, and looks like a great zone-blocking LT at the next level.

If all goes well, your offense will be even more effective than Denver's is right now. Carr is very talented, and you already have several great receivers and RBs. Which brings me to Bush....

He will change your franchise. I say this, not as a Bush bandwagoner, but as a person who knows what REAL talent will do in this offense. Kubiak loves to motion RBs out as receivers, and then motion them from receivers to RBs. He knows how to use a player's strengths to the utmost. The number of packages, special plays, and match-up problems he will create with a player like Bush is unlimited. A great offensive line you will have with this system, but true talent makes it simply unstoppable.

With all the talent you have at the WR, RB, and QB positions your offense will be better than Denver's.
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Old 01-23-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoch
About D'Brickashaw Ferguson, however, I have to say that he is the most perfect zone-blocking LT I have seen since Gary Zimmerman. His footwork, athleticism, hand placement, pass protection, and technique are perfect. PERFECT. Get used to the idea that "how well your line drive blocks is from now on useless." What matters is how well they can move laterally, how fast they are, how well they work together, and how technically sound they are. You will never, ever, ever, EVER find a better LT prospect for your scheme than Ferguson. The only person even close is Matt Lepsis (who you could probably get in FA easily) and he has reached his full potential.
Amen brother. If we need a franchise LT in the Kubiak mold, Ferguson seems to fit the bill.
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