Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-18-2006   #1
Grid
Hall of Fame
 
Grid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,299
Rep Power: 2272 Grid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respectedGrid is a quality contributor and well respected
Default What is leadership exactly? im confused.

I know this has been beat to death.. but people keep dogging on Carr's leadership abilities..and im just wondering where it is coming from. What little blurb or picture do you have that proves he isnt a leader?

Im just wondering what people expect.. I mean.. does he need to go into convulsions of excitement everytime a play is made? Would that prove that he is a leader?

I know..thats stupid..but what is it, exactly, that is lacking? Im sorry but as someone who isnt in the lockerroom.. and isnt a close friend of any of the players.. I cant tell you definitively that he is or isnt a leader. Id like to know what little peice if info I missed that showed that he isnt one.

I honestly think that all these people claiming that Carr isnt a leader.. are incorrectly associating leadership skills with winning. A player can lead his team just fine, but that doesnt mean they will win.. it is still up to the players to play hard, and the coaches to make the right decisions. We know the coaches werent doing their part... So where does it all fall on Carr, exactly?

please.. enlighten me.. im totally in the dark on this whole leadership thing.
Grid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #2
Jack Bauer
All Pro
 
Jack Bauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Age: 48
Posts: 721
Rep Power: 9 Jack Bauer is ridin' the pine
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
please.. enlighten me.. im totally in the dark on this whole leadership thing.
I wish I could, but I don't understand it myself. From everything I see and hear, he has the leadership abilities that are needed in an NFL QB. I haven't heard a peep out of anyone on the team regarding David's "lack" of leadership. The only place I find it is on this message board.
__________________
The TEAM comes before the individual!
Jack Bauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #3
Meloy
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,834
Rep Power: 14 Meloy was voted MVPMeloy was voted MVPMeloy was voted MVP
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr
I wish I could, but I don't understand it myself. From everything I see and hear, he has the leadership abilities that are needed in an NFL QB. I haven't heard a peep out of anyone on the team regarding David's "lack" of leadership. The only place I find it is on this message board.
It is encouraging others to do what is needed when they might not feel like it. When you fall down hurt, exhausted and get back up knowing the next step you may get knocked down again but you get up anyway. When you accept responsibility when it is truly someone else's fault. I think David is a leader.
Meloy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #4
MorKnolle
Hall of Fame
 
MorKnolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,210
Rep Power: 0 MorKnolle MorKnolle MorKnolle MorKnolle MorKnolle MorKnolle MorKnolle MorKnolle MorKnolle MorKnolle MorKnolle
Default

I have similarly wondered where these opinions about Carr's apparent lack of leadership come from. To me the fact that he's been sacked more in four years than any QB in the history of football and keeps coming back and not complaining about it speaks volumes about him, and I like the fact that when he's running to get a first down he doesn't slide to protect himself and come up short, he dives head first and takes the punishment and pain for the benefit of the team. There aren't many QBs that will do that in this league that has created numerous rules to protect QBs. He may not be the most vocal guy on the team, he may not be the best QB in the league, and our team certainly isn't the best in the league, but that doesn't mean Carr is a bad leader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr
I haven't heard a peep out of anyone on the team regarding David's "lack" of leadership. The only place I find it is on this message board.
I haven't heard anything either other than people on the message board and Vince supporters in the local media.

Last edited by MorKnolle; 01-18-2006 at 04:38 PM.
MorKnolle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #5
Sportsfan
All Pro
 
Sportsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 979
Posts: 586
Rep Power: 11 Sportsfan is a fan favorite
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr
I haven't heard a peep out of anyone on the team regarding David's "lack" of leadership. The only place I find it is on this message board.
Well said.
Sportsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #6
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
 
jerek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dublin, OH
Age: 34
Posts: 6,629
Rep Power: 11661 jerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respectedjerek is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via AIM to jerek
Default

Leadership is synonomous with winning the Rose Bowl title game.

It is what allows you to take a team full of comparably elite athletes and one of the winningest coaches in modern college football and put them all on your back.

It allows you to make blanket statements regarding caliber of players based on sense of possession of the word "it."

:brickwall

In all seriousness, though, I think leadership does not have to be spoken, though some leaders are vocal.

Leaders are those that people will look to in difficulty. Leaders are those who are reliable: you can count on them to play their part, and to hold you accountable that you will play yours. Leaders want victory, will do everything in their power to get it.

Leaders are able to get people to do the things they do not want to do, in order to achieve the things they do want for themselves.

As it relates to the DC vs VY argument:

Is Carr a great leader? Honestly, I don't think so. I don't think he is a great leader. Is he a bad one? I doubt it. I think he is a four-year veteran who has not quite yet found his voice on this team, a guy who is admired but has not made that assertive push yet, has not had that series of successes that help to define a leader and garner his respect.

I know for a fact we cut our 2004 leaders, Aaron Gleen and Jamie Sharper. Good job, Cass. I don't think your QB has to be the leader: he is in a sense by default, because he is the signal caller on your offensive side. But even at that, he does not have to be your voice among voices.

I am no best friend of any of the players or their families. I have seen the team together, interacted with them personally, away from the public eye and in their own element where they are free to be themselves and not put on a face, and simply in gauging them, I would comfortably say that there is not animosity towards Carr.

I think that Carr has potential to be just the sort of leader he was drafted to be. I also believe that, circumstances being what they have been, he has not developed into that leader just yet. We will see if he does, soon enough.
__________________
It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere. - Voltaire
jerek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #7
ledzeppelin229
Hall of Fame
 
ledzeppelin229's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Spring / San Marcos, TX
Age: 29
Posts: 6,829
Rep Power: 712 ledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respectedledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respectedledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respectedledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respectedledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respectedledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respectedledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respectedledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respectedledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respectedledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respectedledzeppelin229 is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via AIM to ledzeppelin229
Default

The bottom line is record. When the team is losing, people want to get rid of players. When people want to get rid of players, theyll make stuff up or make wild guesses that can't really be proved one way or another to justify their point. When Carr and the team as a whole start playing better, these people will crawl back into their holes. Or they'll go cheer for VY and the Titans.
ledzeppelin229 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Old 01-18-2006   #8
Big B Texan Fan
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Spring TX
Age: 40
Posts: 1,098
Rep Power: 0 Big B Texan Fan has been demoted to the practice squad
Default

At about mid-season Marc and Rich(610) had Brian Pitmann (I think that's his name) our deep snapper was on the show when they were on site @ Hooters or something.
When Brian was aked by Marc "So who would you say the leader of the team is. With us being 0-6(or whatever it was at the time) I'm just curious as to who is gonna lead us out of this funk".
Brian startd saying guys names like Wong, Payne, and Walker. At that point Marc should've left it alone but he asked "Who would you the leader is of the offense".
Brian had one of those Southwest Airlines moments where he wished he was somewhere else. It went like this..."Uhhhh...ummmmm....uhhhh...well, ....uhhhmmmm, Weigert is pretty vocal ya know crackin' jokes". Which promted Marc and Rich to say "wow, that's pretty sad" Pittman didn't try to clean it up either.
I swear it. If you can get thru call and ask them to play cuz they played it a few times later on.

Does anyone remember that?
Now I know he's just the long snapper but c'mon, he's on that sideline.
__________________
Kubiak is no mechanic!
Trade in the Carr and go with a Young-er model!
Big B Texan Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #9
HoustonFrog
Chitown Frog
 
HoustonFrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Age: 44
Posts: 12,418
Rep Power: 32311 HoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respectedHoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respectedHoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respectedHoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respectedHoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respectedHoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respectedHoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respectedHoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respectedHoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respectedHoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respectedHoustonFrog is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big B Texan Fan
At about mid-season Marc and Rich(610) had Brian Pitmann (I think that's his name) our deep snapper was on the show when they were on site @ Hooters or something.
When Brian was aked by Marc "So who would you say the leader of the team is. With us being 0-6(or whatever it was at the time) I'm just curious as to who is gonna lead us out of this funk".
Brian startd saying guys names like Wong, Payne, and Walker. At that point Marc should've left it alone but he asked "Who would you the leader is of the offense".
Brian had one of those Southwest Airlines moments where he wished he was somewhere else. It went like this..."Uhhhh...ummmmm....uhhhh...well, ....uhhhmmmm, Weigert is pretty vocal ya know crackin' jokes". Which promted Marc and Rich to say "wow, that's pretty sad" Pittman didn't try to clean it up either.
I swear it. If you can get thru call and ask them to play cuz they played it a few times later on.

Does anyone remember that?
Now I know he's just the long snapper but c'mon, he's on that sideline.
That is the same stuff that happened to McKinney and they almost asked point blank if Carr was the leader on offense. He never named him. I just wrote this in another post but people dogged me saying that the Mckinney thing was taken out of context and that the rumors about David not taking extra snaps or dedicating himself to the team as leader was bunk and hearsay. Carr has answered the charges before and says he spends time with his family instead. Well McClain pretty much alluded to those today in his piece. He has the same conclusion as me and others. You may not like him but he is closer to the team than any of us are by a long shot.

"Kubiak is a former quarterback who coaches quarterbacks. He knows that analyzing a quarterback takes so much more than simply watching tapes of games and practices.

Kubiak has to find out what Carr is made of — if Carr is willing to pay the price off the field as he is on the field. Can Carr be consumed with becoming one of the NFL's best — a process that requires 24/7 dedication during the season and something close to it in the offseason.

Kubiak has to decide if Carr can become a dynamic team leader — a trait he hasn't developed in his first four seasons."
HoustonFrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #10
cadahnic
All Pro
 
cadahnic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Age: 33
Posts: 812
Rep Power: 10 cadahnic is a fan favorite
Default

A leader.

Someone who can make another person do something that they inherently dont want to do and enjoy it. Roosevelt

To me that is a leader, and the man that that has to be is Kubiak. This to me is the definition of a leader, in work, play or anything. I dont know much about the armed forces, but every man I know that has fought in combat has sad this is very true. Most people do not really want to die, for any cause, much less the idea of America, but leaders true leaders make them enjoy being a flyboy or a grunt. Now I got this statement from a man that served during the Vietnam war and he told me if you lead this way and strive to do it this way then you will be a great leader.

As for Carr is he a leader on this team? Yes. He is the QB so he leads the offense. Is he the type of leader that is synonomous with what most people feel are leaders? NO. He does need to get into people more, and hold them accountable. Yes he holds himself accountable and will do it often, but what about when his line is crap, or Bradford misses another ball, or Armstrong runs a bad route and does not get open. Talk to them, yeah he likely does, but call them out for all to see make them understand that winning is the only thing he is going to settle for. If it is going to be his team he has to take it, and like Jerek S. said he has not yet.
cadahnic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #11
Big B Texan Fan
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Spring TX
Age: 40
Posts: 1,098
Rep Power: 0 Big B Texan Fan has been demoted to the practice squad
Default

I don't want to see Kubes legacy get tarnished 'cuz he can't turn him around.

Note to all the people who thinks Kubes is gonna get ahold of this and put us into contention right away with the bush pick.
He's gonna be new at his position at a new locale
His cordinators will probably be line coaches going from their team to ours with a more responsible role.
3 new guys, with new jobs, at a new place, working together for the first time with a team that just finished 2-14. Can you say 3-13 season 1, 6-10 season 2, 9-7 season 3. The 3 seasons of carrs' option are up, no playoffs, what do you do?

I can't wait 4 kubes but he ain't fixing anything right away. Especially with carr behind the wheel.
__________________
Kubiak is no mechanic!
Trade in the Carr and go with a Young-er model!
Big B Texan Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #12
texplayer2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Age: 43
Posts: 358
Rep Power: 9 texplayer2 is ridin' the pine
Default

I think leadership in the Pro's can come from many different fronts. In college the star QB,RB, defensive standout,or a Coach usually is the guy you look to to win the game or give you the fire. Not everyone at that level is able to lead and are not going on to the pro ranks.
At the next level I would think leadership comes from Experience, Consistency, Respect for others on your team and Exceptional Ability. Everyone in the professional ranks of any endeavor hold these things in high regard. Leaders are not always the guy who is hooping and hollering.(reference T.O.)
texplayer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #13
chall8
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 47
Posts: 74
Rep Power: 9 chall8 is ridin' the pine
Default

Leadership is a lot of different things, depending on the situation and environment.

On an NFL football field it's about rallying your teammates, with words and/or actions, to play up to and beyond their capabilities.

There are many intangible qualities of leadership. Charisma, personality, character, attitude, just to name a few. Some have more "natural" leadership ability than others, but in many cases leadership can be learned. But in all cases leadership requires confidence.

In some ways Carr has demonstrated tremendous leadership ability (character, attitude), and in other ways he has failed miserably (getting players in the huddle to look in his eyes and then their guts on the field for him on the next play). If you're an NFL QB then this is the type of leadership that matters most.
chall8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #14
Grndzro
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Age: 40
Posts: 16
Rep Power: 0 Grndzro is ridin' the pine
Default

I brought this up in another thread and I guess I will need to reiterate it here. Lets use Drew Brees for an example. The first couple of years he was on a team with marginal talent and many said he lacked leadership skills. Suddenly given a reason to compete (drafting of Rivers), and better talent he has became the leader of the team. I will tell you this from expierance, leadership is a trait that manifest in several diffirent ways. Brett Favre is a leader and he celebrates every time he scores a touchdown, yet when Carr does he is said to be to giddy and should act like he has been there. Every leader is diffirent, and until you are on the team or in the huddle none of you can honestly say if he is a leader or not.
Grndzro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #15
Big B Texan Fan
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Spring TX
Age: 40
Posts: 1,098
Rep Power: 0 Big B Texan Fan has been demoted to the practice squad
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grndzro
Brett Favre is a leader and he celebrates every time he scores a touchdown, yet when Carr does he is said to be to giddy and should act like he has been there.
How does that song go.....Feels like the first time, feels like the very first time.
__________________
Kubiak is no mechanic!
Trade in the Carr and go with a Young-er model!
Big B Texan Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #16
texplayer2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Age: 43
Posts: 358
Rep Power: 9 texplayer2 is ridin' the pine
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall8
Leadership is a lot of different things, depending on the situation and environment.

On an NFL football field it's about rallying your teammates, with words and/or actions, to play up to and beyond their capabilities.

There are many intangible qualities of leadership. Charisma, personality, character, attitude, just to name a few. Some have more "natural" leadership ability than others, but in many cases leadership can be learned. But in all cases leadership requires confidence.

In some ways Carr has demonstrated tremendous leadership ability (character, attitude), and in other ways he has failed miserably (getting players in the huddle to look in his eyes and then their guts on the field for him on the next play). If you're an NFL QB then this is the type of leadership that matters most.
The Only problem with confidence is(reference T.O.) . That is a byproduct of Experience and Consistency. T.O. has plenty of Confidence in HIMSELF.
texplayer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #17
Runner
Hubcap Diamond
 
Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,700
Rep Power: 25614 Runner is a quality contributor and well respectedRunner is a quality contributor and well respectedRunner is a quality contributor and well respectedRunner is a quality contributor and well respectedRunner is a quality contributor and well respectedRunner is a quality contributor and well respectedRunner is a quality contributor and well respectedRunner is a quality contributor and well respectedRunner is a quality contributor and well respectedRunner is a quality contributor and well respectedRunner is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

About the Pittman thing, long snappers don't practice with the offensive or defensive units, so he isn't really part of the nitty-gritty work by those units. He would just have a "team as a whole" viewpoint.

The knock against Tim Duncan early in his career was he wasn't a leader. Now that he has three rings he's a quiet guy who is a very strong leader by example. He comes to work everyday, he isn't above anyone else, etc.

They used to talk up Favre's leadership when they were winning. This season there was a lot of questions that he's holding the team back. Is he no longer a leader, or does his supporting cast affect how he is viewed?

Leadership is many different things and perceptions change with won/loss record, big games, demeanor, etc.

As to Carr? I would have liked him to change plays in the huddle until Pendry benched him (likely) or gave in (yeah, right). But that is just me from a long way away - I don't put a lot of stock in my own opinion on this. Imagine the flack Carr would take if he was benched for insubordination. I bet the players would have respected him though.
__________________
Amy glances out the window; her hair, skin, and clothes take on a pronounced reddish tinge from Doppler effect as she drops out of the conversation at relativistic velocity. - Cryptonomicon
Runner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #18
Tale Gator
________
 
Tale Gator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mars
Posts: 1,089
Rep Power: 15 Tale Gator could be on the next Madden coverTale Gator could be on the next Madden coverTale Gator could be on the next Madden coverTale Gator could be on the next Madden coverTale Gator could be on the next Madden coverTale Gator could be on the next Madden cover
Default

Leadership is not allowing your team to go 2-14.
Tale Gator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #19
Double Barrel
Modified Simian
 
Double Barrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Onward, Upward, and back into the Trees
Section: Gridiron, Tx
Age: 47
Posts: 30,619
Rep Power: 296584 Double Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respectedDouble Barrel is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

leadership...leadership....

It's one of those things that can be hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

For instance, Tom Brady...now there is an obvious leader for his offensive unit. You just know it as a fan, without even being close to the Patriots or in the locker room. You can just tell by the way he plays and the way his team responds to him.

Who can say for sure that David Carr is, or is not, a leader? None of us really knows for sure. But just judging as an innocent bystander, a football fan, a casual observer...you still can't tell if Carr is a leader or not. It's just not obvious the way it is with other QBs in the NFL.

It's almost a situation where if you have to ask about it, then the answer might be right in front of us?
__________________
"Football is only a diversion." ~ HOUSTON TEXANS
Double Barrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2006   #20
chall8
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 47
Posts: 74
Rep Power: 9 chall8 is ridin' the pine
Default

Quote:
The Only problem with confidence is(reference T.O.) . That is a byproduct of Experience and Consistency. T.O. has plenty of Confidence in HIMSELF.
Be careful not to confuse "confidence" with "cockiness" or "arrogance".

To have a career in the NFL you have to have confidence at a pretty high level.
chall8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger