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Old 01-18-2006   #1
Caphorn
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Default 3-4 vs. 4-3

Has this been settled? Last time I checked the base D we run is also being run by very succesful NFL defenses - Pitt, NE, SD and Baltimore. In my opinion, the base 3-4 worked fairly well for the upstart Texans before this season and the problems seemed to be related to playcalling/personnel more than scheme. I'm curious because it seems that most of the DCs currently mentioned for the Texans open DC spot have a base 4-3 philosophy.
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Old 01-18-2006   #2
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Old 01-18-2006   #3
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Broncos Panthers Seattle run a 4-3. It seems to be the dominant D so far this post season. We'll see though. Steelers look tough.
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Old 01-18-2006   #4
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Originally Posted by Big B Texan Fan
Broncos Panthers Seattle run a 4-3. It seems to be the dominant D so far this post season. We'll see though. Steelers look tough.
One note from me...Manning is probably the most successful QB of our era (statistically) and he has had trouble with elite 3-4 defenses more so than elite 4-3 defenses. He seems more confused and less sure of himself faced with a good zone blitz that comes out of the 3-4. I don't think he has been comfortable spotting the hot read the last few years vs the Pats and the Steelers as they lost to both these teams in the playoffs over the last few years.
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Old 01-18-2006   #5
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They are both fine designs. But our plays didnt seem to do so well in a 3-4. I think the 4-3 sounds like a better use for OUR players.
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Old 01-18-2006   #6
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I'd like for us to stay with the 3-4. Utilizing this design correctly would reap great benefits to this ball club. Sure we used 3-4 the past 4 years but....just cause you have a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter, as having kids doesn't make you a good parent, or a wrench make you a plumber.........neither did Capers and Co. having the 3-4 make them compitent in that regime. With the right staff, becoming truly effective with it can manage the current 3-4 defense we have now and become successful.

By changing to a 4-3, drastic changes would be made to personnel and it would take some time to make the overhaul. I'll use another metaphor here... Just as you wouldn't tear down a house because of some termites but rather fumigate the house with proper pest control and thus salvaging the home.....the new coaching staff should keep what they have instead of taking a few steps back to then make the neccessary changes in order to make a successful 3-4 to 4-3 transition.
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Old 01-18-2006   #7
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Originally Posted by THE NFL DRAFT
They are both fine designs. But our plays didnt seem to do so well in a 3-4. I think the 4-3 sounds like a better use for OUR players.
OK. But haven't the Texans been drafting and landing FAs for the 3-4? I mean anyone can speculate how the talent would do in the 4-3, but you can't deny that the talent has been selected for fit in a 34 scheme. Seems like a bigger reconstruction project and possibly - if it can be done - a step back from a scheme perspective. I was more hoping they could get better players - esp. at LB. You cannot underman the LB position in a 3-4. I think we are the best example of that.

I hear what you guys are saying about Carolina, but they beat all of Chicago - one of the worst offenses in the league - to get to the NFC championship game. Pitt put the absolute kibosh on one of the best offenses in the league running a 34. With healthy, high quality LBs, you can dominate a team using the base 34. NE's won how many Super Bowl's with it?
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Old 01-18-2006   #8
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Both defenses have their strong points and weak points and either one can be dominant if run correctly. 3-4 defenses are probably a little harder to run as effectively and are harder to insert the correct personnel since so few colleges run a 3-4 and some guesses have to be made as to how people will fit into that system (i.e. Babin), but at the same time a 3-4 defense is generally harder for QB's to read where blitzes are coming from (look at how Peyton struggles against Pittsburgh, New England, San Diego, etc.) and can be harder for OLinemen to figure out where blitzers or run stoppers are coming from as well, so if a 3-4 is run properly it can cause significant problems to some QBs and offenses. Some teams can run a combination (Baltimore switches it up some to confuse opposing teams, and Denver has the personnel that they could do it too but they don't) to confuse offenses or play to an offenses' weaknesses.
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Old 01-18-2006   #9
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I'm for the 3-4 defense because of how you can scheme against your oponnent like in the madden game Madden says in the 3-4 you only have 3 down linemen that are going to be rushing the quarterback and the other one can be coming from the outside inside or everyone can come. Also all of the zone scheming remember how we used exotic zone coverages that kinda shut down Chad Johnson against the bengals in game 3. We almost have right personnel just need a very few pieces like a sure tackling linebacker and another adequate corner. The last half of the season we were getting some sacks because we played more like a 3-4 defense should be played.
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Old 01-18-2006   #10
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Caphorn, I am a huge proponent of the 3-4 defense, and yes we have drafted for that defense. Most of the players that we have drafted or signed have played mostly in 4-3 base sets. Truth is the transition is so much easier to go from a 3-4 to a 4-3 than vice versa. Right now we have a lot of outside LBs and no real quality MLBs unless you consider Polk quality. We have a high mix of DTs and two DEs. One is an everydown kinda guy like Babin, who could also play MLB and Peek is a situational passrusher, unless he ads 15lbs. The idea of the system does not really have to change you can be agressive in both systems, that was the main problem. You are absolutely right that the best big athletes(LBs) can dominate a game more than any other player on Defense. I really dont care which we line up in, but be agressive in it.
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Old 01-18-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caphorn
OK. But haven't the Texans been drafting and landing FAs for the 3-4? I mean anyone can speculate how the talent would do in the 4-3, but you can't deny that the talent has been selected for fit in a 34 scheme. Seems like a bigger reconstruction project and possibly - if it can be done - a step back from a scheme perspective. I was more hoping they could get better players - esp. at LB. You cannot underman the LB position in a 3-4. I think we are the best example of that.

I hear what you guys are saying about Carolina, but they beat all of Chicago - one of the worst offenses in the league - to get to the NFC championship game. Pitt put the absolute kibosh on one of the best offenses in the league running a 34. With healthy, high quality LBs, you can dominate a team using the base 34. NE's won how many Super Bowl's with it?
Baltimore won a Super Bowl with that D and that D alone, quite convincingly and had several other divisional titles to add to that. They've always lacked the offense to compliment it. The Steelers have pretty much always been successful with the 3-4. Overall.....the success:lack of ratio is very distant. In the past 4 years, 3 years really cause year 1 the Texans ranked 10th in defense if I'm not mistaken....the Texans are the only team to have tarnished the 3-4 scheme. Last year, either all of them won their division and/or end up making the AFC Championship/winning the Super Bowl.
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Old 01-18-2006   #12
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Actually the Falcons tarnished the 3-4 as well a few years ago under Reeves trying to run it with the wrong people. This is their 2nd season back in a 4-3.
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Old 01-18-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
Actually the Falcons tarnished the 3-4 as well a few years ago under Reeves trying to run it with the wrong people. This is their 2nd season back in a 4-3.
I stand corrected. And thanks for the info BTW.

In the 2004 season the Jets were hot, made the playoffs and boasted the best defense at one point of the year and held a top 5 and the conclusion of the season. They too, at times, run a 3-4. I saw them use it several times that year.
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Old 01-18-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadahnic
Caphorn, I am a huge proponent of the 3-4 defense, and yes we have drafted for that defense. Most of the players that we have drafted or signed have played mostly in 4-3 base sets. Truth is the transition is so much easier to go from a 3-4 to a 4-3 than vice versa. Right now we have a lot of outside LBs and no real quality MLBs unless you consider Polk quality. We have a high mix of DTs and two DEs. One is an everydown kinda guy like Babin, who could also play MLB and Peek is a situational passrusher, unless he ads 15lbs. The idea of the system does not really have to change you can be agressive in both systems, that was the main problem. You are absolutely right that the best big athletes(LBs) can dominate a game more than any other player on Defense. I really dont care which we line up in, but be agressive in it.
So why in hell aren't there more DRAFT AJ HAWK threads. Seriously. Draft Hawk. Stick to the 34. And this defense, with one of the best middle LBs I've ever seen, will be astounding. I seriously hate the fact that we will be playing Indy 2x a year and they will have Manning from now until forever, yet we are just about to abandon the scheme that worked him to dealth over and over with the best 34 LB to have entered the draft in the last 5 years sitting right there at the top of the board and us sitting pretty with the No. 1 pick. It's sickening really.
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Old 01-18-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caphorn
So why in hell aren't there more DRAFT AJ HAWK threads. Seriously. Draft Hawk. Stick to the 34. And this defense, with one of the best middle LBs I've ever seen, will be astounding. I seriously hate the fact that we will be playing Indy 2x a year and they will have Manning from now until forever, yet we are just about to abandon the scheme that worked him to dealth over and over with the best 34 LB to have entered the draft in the last 5 years sitting right there at the top of the board and us sitting pretty with the No. 1 pick. It's sickening really.
I wouldn't mind one bit if the Texans traded down and got him. He's the best defensive player coming out of college I've seen in all my time watching college football. The guy's just like Polamalu in the sense that he's (Hawk) almost in on every play, run or pass.
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Old 01-18-2006   #16
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I'm in favor of keeping the 3-4 (although it would be nice if would be run properly) for the same reason Vinny stated, also most of the top D's in the league run it (chargers, pats, steelers, jets use it some, ravens over the last couple years).

the 3-4 run properly is a beautiful thing.
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Old 01-18-2006   #17
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One you dont take a 3-4 LB with the first pick, and even if we trade down to like 8 or 9 it is really high to take him. Yeah I agree that Hawk needs to play in a 3-4, if not he will not look nearly as good as most people think he is. I dont think he is better than Vilma, definately not as instictive or athletic, which would put him around pick 13 or so. AJ is a good LB and will be a good one barring injuries and set backs, he kinda reminds me of Dan Morgan when he came out in the draft. That guy was a terror all over the field at the U. Personally I am looking at Mario Williams, Jimmy Williams, or an OT other than D'Brick(Eric Wnston). Though if somehow AJ fell to around 20 I would trade back up and get him in a heartbeat.
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Old 01-18-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBTexans08
He's the best defensive player coming out of college I've seen in all my time watching college football.
So why trade down? And I agree with you completely on this. Some may dispute the talent, but you know you have a guaranteed player even if he doesn't turn out to be the best. This team can't afford an expensive miss.
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Old 01-18-2006   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caphorn
So why trade down? And I agree with you completely on this. Some may dispute the talent, but you know you have a guaranteed player even if he doesn't turn out to be the best. This team can't afford an expensive miss.
You don't draft a LB at #1 if that's what you are implying. The top three picks will easily be Bush, Leinart, and Young (not necessarily in that order), so you could trade down to at least #4 and get Hawk while paying him less money and acquiring more draft picks in exchange. That said, it is rare to see a LB taken above #9 (last one was LaVar Arringotn) and Hawk is not in Arrington's class so I would not take him in the top 10. I agree with Cadahnic, if Hawk somehow falls to #20 (which he won't) then I wouldn't mind trading back up and getting him there. Another thing, Hawk is not a true MLB in the NFL (maybe a 3- ILB but probably still more of an OLB) and our team is already flooded with them, we need a true MLB if we are going to bring in someone new, plus with some of the contracts we have at LB it would be difficult to bring in a new one for at least a year, and I once again agree with cadahnic that if we're going to get a LB I'd prefer a faster one like McIntosh that we can get later in the draft and pay a substantially lower salary to.
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Old 01-18-2006   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travfrancis

the 3-4 run properly is a beautiful thing.
.....in the words of Vandermeer of Sports Radio 610......"it's a beautiful thing!"
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