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Old 01-17-2006   #1
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Default What's the difference between Carr and P. Manning?

Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.
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Old 01-17-2006   #2
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*sigh*

This is a gross generalization. While I appreciate the point you are trying to make (regarding the importance of O-line, if I am reading this correctly), you cannot expect to make a case or get by on this kind of ridiculously oversimplified line of thinking.
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Old 01-17-2006   #3
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I wouldn't go near that far, but it sure is interesting to see how Manning reacts the 1 or 2 times a year when an opponent gets consistant pressure--happy feet, fails to make good progression reads (see Dallas Clark and Edge open on subsequent plays at the end of the game where Peyton was locked on to the primary) and starts prematurely avoiding contact--hmmm sounds like a lot of the same symptoms mere mortal QB's have.
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Old 01-17-2006   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerek
*sigh*

This is a gross generalization. While I appreciate the point you are trying to make (regarding the importance of O-line, if I am reading this correctly), you cannot expect to make a case or get by on this kind of ridiculously oversimplified line of thinking.
Great argument....

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Old 01-17-2006   #5
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I was at the Cardinal game and got to watch first hand as Carr called plays at the LOS. Even though the Cards secondary was banged up Carr had his best half of the year when he was in controll of the situation. I'd say the biggest difference between Carr and Manning is that Manning has the faith of his coaching staff to make the proper decissions at the line of scrimage where Carr has only had 1 half of a game to show what he can do if given the chance.
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Old 01-17-2006   #6
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night and day, since we are grossly overgeneralizing things, that would have to be my answer.
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Old 01-17-2006   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegr8fan
night and day, since we are grossly overgeneralizing things, that would have to be my answer.
Another post with the same superb argument.....

During the season.....yes, night and day. During the season....Manning's got protection while Carr throughout the entire season doesn't.

During the post-season, when teams bring their best against Manning, thus actually going after him, breaking through the line.......he buckles just like Carr does with no protection.

When defenders break through....

Manning is like a deer caught by head lights.

Carr.....same.

Big overgeneralization alright.

With no protection....they perform the same.

With protection we've seen signs of greatness in Carr. Manning has it during the season so we see what he can do. We also see what he can't do with no protection........same with Carr.
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Old 01-17-2006   #8
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I'm not trying to be a jerk but this thread is absolutely a joke and really has nothing relevant about it. Manning, even after getting pounded, still put 15 points on the board in the 4th and had his team in a postion to go to OT..even after being outplayed all game. Manning has been an NFL MVP who smartly knows what calls to make at the line of scrimmage. He works non-stop on his timing with his receivers and the countless progressions and practice he and Harrison and Wayne put in after practice and before games has been the stuff that I have seen in two TV segments about them. Carr doesn't watch film or stay after practice. You can't knock a guy from elite status because someone had a better game plan. You don't see Manning staring down one receiver or holding the ball too long when it isn't the O-lines fault. To make a jump like this is ludicrous. You don't see Carr making the throws that Manning makes or the decisions, plain and simple. They are not on the same level. Where has been Carr's signs of greatness? In order to proclaim this you have to see a level that is CONSISTENT. One half against a horrible Arizona team or a Jacksonville game two years ago doesn't get the job done. Stop stirring the pot with this drivel. Manning was 22 of 38 with 290 yards and a TD with no interceptions on a horrible day. That is Carrs best day most of the time.
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Old 01-17-2006   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonFrog
I'm not trying to be a jerk but this thread is absolutely a joke and really has nothing relevant about it. Manning, even after getting pounded, still put 15 points on the board in the 4th and had his team in a postion to go to OT..even after being outplayed all game. Manning has been an NFL MVP who smartly knows what calls to make at the line of scrimmage. He works non-stop on his timing with his receivers and the countless progressions and praactice he and Harrison and Wayne put in after practice and before games has been the stuff that I have seen in two TV segments about them. You can't knock a guy from elite status because someone had a better game plan. You don't see Manning staring down one receiver or holding the ball too long when it isn't the O-lines fault. To make a jump like this is ludicrous. You don't see carr making the throws that Manning makes or the decisions, plain and simple. They are not on the same level. Where has been Carr's signs of greatness. In order to proclaim this you have to see a level that is CONSISTENT. One half against a horrible Arizona team or a Jacksonville game two years ago doesn't get the job done. Stop stirring the pot with this drivel.
That's strange cause in every post-season when he's faced the same dilemna Carr faces all season.....Manning breaks down. What good does a 13-0 start to a season do, all the practice and having slumber parties with his team mates do you when the opposition is in your face....your brain farts up?

I saw Manning stare down receivers cause there were plenty of times other guys were open.....but guess what........he didn't see them cause he freaked when having guys come at him. What happened? Busted plays, that's what.

Sure Manning can be an MVP multiple times.....something Carr has never been or done. He has the luxury of not being hurried or having the defense in his face the way Carr does however. So....under different circumstances, Manning with protection and Carr without........yes, they are in no way comparable. But....stick them in the same circumstances..............they fare the same. When Carr's had protection.....he's performed very well. But that's quickly forgotten since those instances are few and far between. I don't know if you forgot but Carr does have a rediculous record of the being the QB sacked the most in 4 years.

In the playoffs of the 2004 season........after making record setting TDs in a season, after having also placed a record for being the only QB to have 3 WRs with 10 TDs each, respectively..........he goes into the post-season to face the Pats and he doesn't get a SINGLE TD. That's pitiful. You have all these TDs in the season.........break and make a record for it......but when the pressure is finally on.........you get ZERO of them. Ludicrous!!

Say as you please.......under the same circumstances........Manning is no different than Carr................UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES!!! Clear enough???
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Old 01-17-2006   #10
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The first half of last season, I think we all saw what Carr CAN do, and the line play was not stellar, just average. This season, the entire team melted down and the offensive line was worse than in Year One, at least until they bumped Riley out. With improved line play next year and some decent coaching, I see no reason why Carr cannot improve upon 2004's numbers.
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Old 01-17-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBTexans08
That's strange cause in every post-season when he's faced the same dilemna Carr faces all season.....Manning breaks down. What good does a 13-0 start to a season do, all the practice and having slumber parties with his team mates do you when the opposition is in your face....your brain farts up?

I saw Manning stare down receivers cause there were plenty of times other guys were open.....but guess what........he didn't see them cause he freaked when having guys come at him. What happened? Busted plays, that's what.

Sure Manning can be an MVP multiple times.....something Carr has never been or done. He has the luxury of not being hurried or having the defense in his face the way Carr does however. So....under different circumstances, Manning with protection and Carr without........yes, they are in no way comparable. But....stick them in the same circumstances..............they fare the same.

In the playoffs of the 2004 season........after making record setting TDs in a season, after having also placed a record for being the only QB to have 3 WRs with 10 TDs each, respectively..........he goes into the post-season to face the Pats and he doesn't get a SINGLE TD. That's pitiful. You have all these TDs in the season.........break and make a record for it......but when the pressure is finally on.........you get ZERO of them. Ludicrous!!

Say as you please.......under the same circumstances........Manning is no different than Carr................UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES!!! Clear enough???
Your post was a rambling diatribe of contradictions. In one sentence he is the same because he folds under presssure yet in another he can still win games and get a team to the playoffs and be an MVP with the pressure and somehow he is just like Carr, a guy who has won nothing or taken a team anywhere. Huh? So your saying that Elway and Young were failures because they lost in 3-4 years or more of the playoffs before winning their first one?But somehow these guys had to GET to the post season to even have a chance. Something Carr doesn't do. If he is so bad then why does Manning get blitzed all season and still produce. And why don't you have an answer for his stats in the game when he had no turnovers, 290 yards a TD?Wouldn't you think that their defense, who was ranked high all year and gave up all the points and the 8 minute drives would be responsible?You really are making no sense at all. So no, it is not clear enough. Please don't ramble like RainMan on crack again. When you can answer when Carr got knocked around like that, still had 290 yards, a TD and no picks and the team still had a chance to win, then your point can be made. But you can't because it has never happened and it sure as heck never happened in a playoff game.
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Old 01-17-2006   #12
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Carson Palmer,Tom Brady,Peyton Manning,Matt Hassellback,Donovan Mc Nabb,Ben etc. what do they all have in common apart from being regarded as the best qbs-excellent o-lines and run games. the best example of o-line importance is Culpepper-last year with excellent protection he was brilliant-this years with bad protection int magnet. note to every football fan: if the majority of qbs in the nfl are given time and a running game they will look good. thats why ferguson ,bentley and other o-line should be our off-season offensive moves
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Old 01-17-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc
The first half of last season, I think we all saw what Carr CAN do, and the line play was not stellar, just average. This season, the entire team melted down and the offensive line was worse than in Year One, at least until they bumped Riley out. With improved line play next year and some decent coaching, I see no reason why Carr cannot improve upon 2004's numbers.
And 2004's numbers weren't bad, considering Carr still had many games where the line broke down. I mean...bad protections always been a problem for him. I wonder what Manning would have done in Carr's position in 2004. Would he have had as good a year Carr did with that O-line? Looking at the games in which Manning gets pressured.....I'd heavily doubt it. 2005 season was too ridiculous..........NO QB could perform under those circumstances........NO QB, NO WAY, NO HOW! I don't see why people down Carr the way they do. That line is piss poor...........and not to mention the poor excuse of a coaching staff Carr had to deal with.

The coaches didn't have confidence/faith in their plan, playing musical chairs with their linemen..........how could the lineman themselves have confidence in the coaches plans if the coaches didn't have faith in it? What did this project into? You guessed it...........SACKS GALORE!!
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Old 01-17-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonFrog
Your post was a rambling diatribe of contradictions. In one sentence he is the same because he folds under presssure yet in another he can still win games and get a team to the playoffs and be an MVP with the pressure and somehow he is just like Carr, a guy who has won nothing or taken a team anywhere. Huh? So your saying that Elway and Young were failures because they lost in 3-4 years or more of the playoffs before winning their first one?But somehow these guys had to GET to the post season to even have a chance. Something Carr doesn't do. If he is so bad then why does Manning get blitzed all season and still produce. And why don't you have an answer for his stats in the game when he had no turnovers, 290 yards a TD?Wouldn't you think that their defense, who was ranked high all year and gave up all the points and the 8 minute drives would be responsible?You really are making no sense at all. So no, it is not clear enough. Please don't ramble like RainMan on crack again. When you can answer when Carr got knocked around like that, still had 290 yards, a TD and no picks and the team still had a chance to win, then your point can be made. But you can't because it has never happened and it sure as heck never happened in a playoff game.
You need to learn to read. I didn't contradict myself. Read it again.


Edit: As an addendum. There's more to making a point in a post than just sentence structure (your forte). Again....read it, compute it....then come at me.
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Old 01-17-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonFrog
I'm not trying to be a jerk but this thread is absolutely a joke and really has nothing relevant about it. Manning, even after getting pounded, still put 15 points on the board in the 4th and had his team in a postion to go to OT..even after being outplayed all game. Manning has been an NFL MVP who smartly knows what calls to make at the line of scrimmage. He works non-stop on his timing with his receivers and the countless progressions and practice he and Harrison and Wayne put in after practice and before games has been the stuff that I have seen in two TV segments about them. Carr doesn't watch film or stay after practice. You can't knock a guy from elite status because someone had a better game plan. You don't see Manning staring down one receiver or holding the ball too long when it isn't the O-lines fault. To make a jump like this is ludicrous. You don't see Carr making the throws that Manning makes or the decisions, plain and simple. They are not on the same level. Where has been Carr's signs of greatness? In order to proclaim this you have to see a level that is CONSISTENT. One half against a horrible Arizona team or a Jacksonville game two years ago doesn't get the job done. Stop stirring the pot with this drivel. Manning was 22 of 38 with 290 yards and a TD with no interceptions on a horrible day. That is Carrs best day most of the time.

Not to be a jerk either but I believe it is incredibly relevant and if my computer hadn't been down the last day I would have started the same thread. I would have prefaced it by saying the obvious difference is in their experience, stats, and success but the thread is about the difference when neither has good o-line protection. The answer to that is essentially not much. Both get sacked and put up scratch #'s. Yeah Peyton got the late TD but really the stats should have showed an INT, the result of constant pressure and little confidence in having more time. The bottom line is that NFL QB's look horrible when they have no time and if Peyton essentially getting shut down doesn't prove that then I don't know what to say. The second bottom line is the Texans need to forget about playmakers because when there is no blocking there will be little offense to be had. Personally if the Texans draft Reggie I'll still root for them but I'll expect the exact same sort of production.
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Old 01-17-2006   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBTexans08
You need to learn to read. I didn't contradict myself. Read it again.
I did and again it made no sense and went in 10 directions. You have no answer for statistics or any facts I brought out. Same as you accused others of doing above. You can't make the argument at all. You are now personally attacking me instead of the facts!!You have not made one relevant point. To be an NFL QB, you need more than just an O-line. You need to study, you need to work with your teammates. You need to make it to the playoffs. I saw Steve Young get his head handed to him against the Cowboys in an NFC title game and he lost 3 times before winning the SB. So did that make him a loser that was the same as Carr?No, it meant that his team had a bad day. He still was a winner who could lead and get his team to a point where they could, AS A TEAM, compete. Carr has neither shown the leadership, the extra work or any of these qualities, even in defeat.

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Old 01-17-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Preacher
The second bottom line is the Texans need to forget about playmakers because when there is no blocking there will be little offense to be had. Personally if the Texans draft Reggie I'll still root for them but I'll expect the exact same sort of production.
F'en A! Let's hope Kubiak makes the most of what we've got. Great point man.....no matter what talent in the playmakers you have there at your disposal.....they'll do you no good if you don't protect the QB.
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Old 01-17-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBTexans08
Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.
Manning has been able to step out of the ominous shadow of David Carr and has won 3 playoff games in his career.

Comical how Carr comparisions revolve around other's one game short comings and Carr's great half against the Arizona Cardinals at the end of the season when neither had anything to play for.
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Old 01-17-2006   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Preacher
Not to be a jerk either but I believe it is incredibly relevant and if my computer hadn't been down the last day I would have started the same thread. I would have prefaced it by saying the obvious difference is in their experience, stats, and success but the thread is about the difference when neither has good o-line protection. The answer to that is essentially not much. Both get sacked and put up scratch #'s. Yeah Peyton got the late TD but really the stats should have showed an INT, the result of constant pressure and little confidence in having more time. The bottom line is that NFL QB's look horrible when they have no time and if Peyton essentially getting shut down doesn't prove that then I don't know what to say. The second bottom line is the Texans need to forget about playmakers because when there is no blocking there will be little offense to be had. Personally if the Texans draft Reggie I'll still root for them but I'll expect the exact same sort of production.
So how does one account for the fact that most coaches, commentators, etc literally call Carr out for taking many of his own sacks by holding the ball too long and staring down receivers?Some how these other QBs took their knocks and learned the lesson yet Carr hasn't.
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Old 01-17-2006   #20
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Manning has a MUCH better team around him. He's also more experienced and, besides, Carr doesn't need to be Peyton Manning to be worth keeping.
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