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Old 01-17-2006   #1
AstroTexan
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Default Vince Young: The Underdeveloped QB

I've read in a few posts in the whole Reggie vs. Vince Young vs. Trading the pick scenario, but I want to focus on Vince Young and peoples thoughts about him being underdeveloped.

For those of you who think Vince Young is the way to go the most of you seem to think it is feasable to get rid of Carr and start Young next year. This is the most underthought logic I've heard of in a while. If we do for some reason take Vince Young with the number 1 pick, he has to sit at least 1 season if not 2 to get Kubiaks system down along with reading the different more complicatedc coverages he'll see in the NFL.

The other thing that Vince Young will need to do is learn to tuck the ball away when he checks out of his reads and runs the ball. The way he runs right now, as was seen in the Texas A&M game is withtout the ball enough. He needs to protect it better or will be fumbling like Tiki Barber did 2 years ago with the Giants.

It is feasable to compare him right now to Michael Vick coming out of VTech. As you seen, the Falcons had average teams for the first few years Vick was starting, but they really haven't been a great team. It was until this year where Michael Vick became a qualtiy NFL QB. If you compare him to his earlier years, Vick is now going through his progression and checking off all options before taking off and running the ball. This is something that will have to be learned by Vince Young as well. It is something that athletic/running QB's from college have to go through and it takes time.

Any more thoughts on Young being underdeveloped?
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Old 01-17-2006   #2
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Pretty much agree. Will need at least a year, maybe 2-3 before he is good at:

- Learn to read NFL schemes/coverages
- Play an NFL style offense
- Adapt to NFL defenses' speed
- Polish his arm and release

Vince should have a bright future ahead of him. He is a bright kid, a hard worker, and there is no denying his talent. As far as all of this crap about "no one ever like him," that is garbage hype, nothing more. But he is clearly talented.

I expect him to have a good and quite possibly great NFL career. I just expect him to do it elsewhere.
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Old 01-17-2006   #3
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I think that Vince started doing all the things you are saying already though. In comparison to Vick, Young has matured alot more than Vick did at Young's stage of his career. Plus Vick did more in college than Vick ever did.

I do agree with the putting the ball away.
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Old 01-17-2006   #4
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I'm sorry but I'm just not sold on Young being great in the NFL untill I see his onfield performance against NFL defenses. Too many big name QB's shined in college and completley flopped in the pros. Andre Ware was suposed to set the world on fire and he was horrible for the Lions. Akili Smith busted with the Bengals, Rick Myers (sp) did nothing for the Seahawks, Tim Couch sucked it up with the Browns and Ryan Leaf cried his way out of San Diego.

I cant think of a Linebacker that went high in the first round that has busted except for Brian Bosworth and not a single high first round left tackle has flopped completley that I can think of.
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Old 01-17-2006   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroTexan
Any more thoughts on Young being underdeveloped?
Carr started right from the get go and alot of people think he's still the answer.

Look Carr is bad, really bad. #2 at best (that's not really that bad, sorry)
With all the right pieces in place Carr would excell at being one of the best back-ups in the NFL at best.

Carr is this decades version of Andre Ware. Monster senior year in college but so far a complete failure in the NFL. Season 2 Banks won 2 or 3 of our games as well as beating a SB opponent and almost beating the SB winner. Carr could only muster up 2 more wins the following season. Carr is tough but he reminds me of a stronger armed Bucky Richardson.

Bush is underdeveloped and undersized. And to those who wil say he's not as underdeveloped than Young, QB to RB is a Huge diffrence.It takes a smarter player to play QB

Leinert is underdeveloped.

AJ hawk is underdeveloped. Hell they're all underdeveloped. Whats your point, Life in the NFL is totally different from college. It takes all players time to develope in the NFL.
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Old 01-17-2006   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerek
Pretty much agree. Will need at least a year, maybe 2-3 before he is good at:

- Learn to read NFL schemes/coverages
- Play an NFL style offense
- Adapt to NFL defenses' speed
- Polish his arm and release

Vince should have a bright future ahead of him. He is a bright kid, a hard worker, and there is no denying his talent. As far as all of this crap about "no one ever like him," that is garbage hype, nothing more. But he is clearly talented.

I expect him to have a good and quite possibly great NFL career. I just expect him to do it elsewhere.
heh, I don't understand how people say he will have to learn how to "play in an NFL style offense"

You know, Texas offense is based on Indy's offense, right? Peyton Manning works out of the shotgun quite a bit. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Elway ran quite a bit of shot gun in his time too.....
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Old 01-17-2006   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacier
heh, I don't understand how people say he will have to learn how to "play in an NFL style offense"

You know, Texas offense is based on Indy's offense, right? Peyton Manning works out of the shotgun quite a bit. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Elway ran quite a bit of shot gun in his time too.....
Texas offense is "based" on Indy's offense?

Is it now? The Colts use shotgun quite a bit, not virtually all of the time.

Excuse me while I dust off the rest of my points, none of which you even addressed, which leads me to believe that you cannot refute them, or have (wisely) chosen not to try.
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Old 01-17-2006   #8
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Originally Posted by Glacier
heh, I don't understand how people say he will have to learn how to "play in an NFL style offense"

You know, Texas offense is based on Indy's offense, right? Peyton Manning works out of the shotgun quite a bit. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Elway ran quite a bit of shot gun in his time too.....
UT runs a zone-read offense, and Vince will not be able to run that in the NFL. 90%+ of their snaps are out of a shotgun, which also will not happen in the NFL, Indy runs it maybe 5% of the time and sometimes Manning will audible into a shotgun. USC's offense is relatively similar to a pro offense, but UT is far from it.
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Old 01-17-2006   #9
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Firast of all It's going to take Carr 2-3 years to get Kubiak's offense down anyway, obviously he does have the present offense down. How many completions over 20 did Carr have this year? Let's face it Carr is damaged goods. I would rather Take Vince or trade down for D'Brickshaw and an obsurb amount of draft picks.
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Old 01-17-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerek
Pretty much agree. Will need at least a year, maybe 2-3 before he is good at:

- Learn to read NFL schemes/coverages
- Play an NFL style offense
- Adapt to NFL defenses' speed
- Polish his arm and release

Vince should have a bright future ahead of him. He is a bright kid, a hard worker, and there is no denying his talent. As far as all of this crap about "no one ever like him," that is garbage hype, nothing more. But he is clearly talented.

I expect him to have a good and quite possibly great NFL career. I just expect him to do it elsewhere.

Okay, since you wanted feed back on your no brainer, shockingly amazing insight.....

- Learn to read NFL schemes/coverages

Coaching...he needs Kubiak. Same goes for Carr, who has underachieved. Carr needs coaching as well. It could be argued that Carr needs more coaching than Vince since, all Vince does is win. All Carr does is get pounded and throw interceptions. Houston has not had a very good coaching staff. I am a firm believer that Coaching is EVERYTHING. Btw, this point would also apply to Bush having to learn blocking schemes or Leihart as well.

- Adapt to NFL defenses' speed

You know....Bush had problems adjusting to Texas' defensive speed. His one REAL big run for a touch came after LenDale had been plowing and pounding and grinding down that defense FOR him.....Dominack Davis won't be filling that role if you take Bush. Furthermore, anyone drafted will have to adjust.

- Polish his arm and release

this would be a huge mistake that people need to get over. The kid than sling the ball and make ALL the throws. his release is QUICK! Other QBs have had good success with a side armed release. The focus on Vince needs to be on his mind, not his already superior god given gifts. if anything at all, he will need to work on his game below his waste and above his shoulders.... foot work and reading defenses.....nothing more.
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Old 01-17-2006   #11
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Originally Posted by Glacier
Okay, since you wanted feed back on your no brainer, shockingly amazing insight.....

- Learn to read NFL schemes/coverages

Coaching...he needs Kubiak. Same goes for Carr, who has underachieved. Carr needs coaching as well. It could be argued that Carr needs more coaching than Vince since, all Vince does is win. All Carr does is get pounded and throw interceptions. Houston has not had a very good coaching staff. I am a firm believer that Coaching is EVERYTHING. Btw, this point would also apply to Bush having to learn blocking schemes or Leihart as well.

- Adapt to NFL defenses' speed

You know....Bush had problems adjusting to Texas' defensive speed. His one REAL big run for a touch came after LenDale had been plowing and pounding and grinding down that defense FOR him.....Dominack Davis won't be filling that role if you take Bush. Furthermore, anyone drafted will have to adjust.

- Polish his arm and release

this would be a huge mistake that people need to get over. The kid than sling the ball and make ALL the throws. his release is QUICK! Other QBs have had good success with a side armed release. The focus on Vince needs to be on his mind, not his already superior god given gifts. if anything at all, he will need to work on his game below his waste and above his shoulders.... foot work and reading defenses.....nothing more.
This is ridiculous. Carr has less of his game to work on than Vince Young. Saying that Vince doesn't need to adjust his throwing style is also just silly, throwing sidearm like that is going to make it very hard to get the ball off, it negates his height advantage over some QBs, and he can't make all the throws. He can't throw an accurate ball more than 35 yards downfield, he has a slow release, he has horrible footwork and doesn't step into his throws, he doesn't read defenses very well unless they're backed off into a cover 2 zone and he can throw 3 yard routes underneath the defense. The few things Carr really needs to work on are just in his head, whereas Vince needs to develop those same things in addition to fixing his whole throwing motion from his feet on up to his arm, as well as adjusting to the speed and defenses in the NFL and not working out of a shotgun 95% of his plays.
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Old 01-17-2006   #12
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Originally Posted by MorKnolle
This is ridiculous. Carr has less of his game to work on than Vince Young. Saying that Vince doesn't need to adjust his throwing style is also just silly, throwing sidearm like that is going to make it very hard to get the ball off, it negates his height advantage over some QBs, and he can't make all the throws. He can't throw an accurate ball more than 35 yards downfield, he has a slow release, he has horrible footwork and doesn't step into his throws, he doesn't read defenses very well unless they're backed off into a cover 2 zone and he can throw 3 yard routes underneath the defense. The few things Carr really needs to work on are just in his head, whereas Vince needs to develop those same things in addition to fixing his whole throwing motion from his feet on up to his arm, as well as adjusting to the speed and defenses in the NFL and not working out of a shotgun 95% of his plays.

wow...I don't know what to make of all this other than suspect that 1. you are an A&M fan, 2. you MIGHT be an alien, 3. it is possible that you might be on drugs and out of touch with reality or 4. you didn't watch Vince Young play.

Stephen A. Smith, of ESPN2's "Quite Frankly" had Charlie Weis on a few days ago. They had the regular ol **** chat about the state of the ND football program, the pats, Tom Brady.....

Then for some odd reason, Stephen Smith felt the need to ask Charlie Weis what he thought about Vince Young.....o man....

Charlie Weis said some VERY interesting and positive things about Vince and his game. Anyone have a link or audio clip of Charlie Weis on Vince Young?
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Old 01-17-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacier
wow...I don't know what to make of all this other than suspect that 1. you are an A&M fan, 2. you MIGHT be an alien, 3. it is possible that you might be on drugs and out of touch with reality or 4. you didn't watch Vince Young play.

Stephen A. Smith, of ESPN2's "Quite Frankly" had Charlie Weis on a few days ago. They had the regular ol **** chat about the state of the ND football program, the pats, Tom Brady.....

Then for some odd reason, Stephen Smith felt the need to ask Charlie Weis what he thought about Vince Young.....o man....

Charlie Weis said some VERY interesting and positive things about Vince and his game. Anyone have a link or audio clip of Charlie Weis on Vince Young?
This is great. The VY crowd will pull up Charlie Weis, Skip Bayless, or really any old Joe Schmo with a blog and parrot on about how this guy extolled Vince, but never mind the other 75% of analysts, scouts, and league coaches who would so much as dare to defend David Carr or say that the Texans don't need to draft VY.

Way to completely ignore Mork's post and pull a line out of your *** about what Charlie Weis had to say.
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Old 01-17-2006   #14
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Originally Posted by jerek
This is great. The VY crowd will pull up Charlie Weis, Skip Bayless, or really any old Joe Schmo with a blog and parrot on about how this guy extolled Vince, but never mind the other 75% of analysts, scouts, and league coaches who would so much as dare to defend David Carr or say that the Texans don't need to draft VY.

Way to completely ignore Mork's post and pull a line out of your *** about what Charlie Weis had to say.
You are missing the point. The point is, Weis has 3 Superbowl titles under his belt as an offensive coordinator. He, in his first year, took a ND team with marginal talent and a QB who was washing out, shook them up and moved them back into the College Football Elite....

This isn't some scrub analyst talking. When a man like Weis speaks, if you love football and respect accomplishment and results, you should LISTEN to what he has to say on some random topic. He has nothing to gain by edifying Vince Young...yet, he was OBVIOUSLY a huge fan of what Vince has done in Texas, calling him a "Pass first quarterback." That tells me that he studied Vince, just in case......you KNOW he had to have a lot of film on Vince just in case they ended up meeting Texas.

Thats all I'm saying. Analysts as well as us message board warriors are mostly clueless, I believe; however, when the man who developed Tom Brady and has 3 Superbowls under his belt speaks, I listen VERY intently. Hunt down that transcript of Weis speaking on Vince Young....you will be shocked to hear what he says.
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Old 01-17-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacier
You are missing the point. The point is, Weis has 3 Superbowl titles under his belt as an offensive coordinator. He, in his first year, took a ND team with marginal talent and a QB who was washing out, shook them up and moved them back into the College Football Elite....

This isn't some scrub analyst talking. When a man like Weis speaks, if you love football and respect accomplishment and results, you should LISTEN to what he has to say on some random topic. He has nothing to gain by edifying Vince Young...yet, he was OBVIOUSLY a huge fan of what Vince has done in Texas, calling him a "Pass first quarterback." That tells me that he studied Vince, just in case......you KNOW he had to have a lot of film on Vince just in case they ended up meeting Texas.

Thats all I'm saying. Analysts as well as us message board warriors are mostly clueless, I believe; however, when the man who developed Tom Brady and has 3 Superbowls under his belt speaks, I listen VERY intently.
You know what Glac? ... I am going to go on record as saying I was wrong about you. That is exactly the type of reasoning that belongs in a discussion such as this. That is not sarcasm, that is the honest truth of it.

That said, I would like to know what Weis specifically said. I have said it a hundred times on here, Vince is not a bad QB, I think he will be good in the league. I still don't think we need him, but that is my thought.

Any way, credit to you man, you have shown yourself just now.
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Old 01-17-2006   #16
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Originally Posted by Glacier
wow...I don't know what to make of all this other than suspect that 1. you are an A&M fan, 2. you MIGHT be an alien, 3. it is possible that you might be on drugs and out of touch with reality or 4. you didn't watch Vince Young play.

Stephen A. Smith, of ESPN2's "Quite Frankly" had Charlie Weis on a few days ago. They had the regular ol **** chat about the state of the ND football program, the pats, Tom Brady.....

Then for some odd reason, Stephen Smith felt the need to ask Charlie Weis what he thought about Vince Young.....o man....

Charlie Weis said some VERY interesting and positive things about Vince and his game. Anyone have a link or audio clip of Charlie Weis on Vince Young?
1) I don't like the Aggies
2) I'm pretty sure I'm not an alien
3) I am definitely not on drugs or out of touch with reality
4) I have watched some of Vince's games in their entirety and I've seen a lot of additional game tape on him and talked to a few people in the professional football community that agree with that assessment (actually some of those points I picked up from them)

I'm sure Charlie Weis did have some positive things to say about Vince, everyone including myself does, but that doesn't change the fact that his passing mechanics are not especially good from the time he receives the snap (usually in a shotgun) to the time he releases the ball.
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Old 01-17-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorKnolle
1) I don't like the Aggies
2) I'm pretty sure I'm not an alien
3) I am definitely not on drugs or out of touch with reality
4) I have watched some of Vince's games in their entirety and I've seen a lot of additional game tape on him and talked to a few people in the professional football community that agree with that assessment (actually some of those points I picked up from them)

I'm sure Charlie Weis did have some positive things to say about Vince, everyone including myself does, but that doesn't change the fact that his passing mechanics are not especially good from the time he receives the snap (usually in a shotgun) to the time he releases the ball.

One of the most interesting points that Charlie Weis made about Vince Young was on his throwing motion.

Not an exact quote but, I remember him saying something along the lines of...

"A throwing motion can be coached and tweeked in the pros. You can't coach god given talent."

That was probably the more interesting thing he said. He did touch on the leadership aspect of Vince's game, which is an intangible that can't be measured.

In all, I'm not hating on Carr at all. I think he has it in him to be a VERY solid pro quarterback in the mold of a Jake Plummer type QB who has suffered through bad coaching, a crappy football program and bad talent evaluation. Yet, in the right circumstances, he could be playing in the AFC title game.

Taking Vince Young will probably set Houston back a couple of years in terms of potential production. In the long term though, Carr has taken a lot of punishment playing in Houston. Vince would be a better long term solution at the position.


Edit: There is one thing that has gone unmentioned in all this. I do not believe that Houston is Vince Young's best chance at being successful. I'm sure it has been mentioned that he might have better success not being around his home town and some of the potential negative influences that could be in Houston. I do want to see Vince Young succeed in the NFL. I'm not sure that Houston would be his best chance at success. I think the "TRUE" Vince Young fans would much rather see him go #3 to the Titans where he will have a solid mentor, solid coach and solid football program to grow in.

Last edited by Glacier; 01-17-2006 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 01-17-2006   #18
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I don't view Greg Davis as a good mentor of QB's. I think Vince improved Davis, not the other way around. I like Vince and wouldn't be overly upset if we drafted him. I am just kind of irritated by the "force of the frenzy" to take him. Something about this situation (Young/Bush) reminds me of the Applewhite/Simms debate at UT. Applewhite was all but given God status, and I feel the same way about Young now. It also reminds me of DJ in last year's draft too.

It has an artificial, built-on-pure-emotion (as opposed to logic) feel to it. I'm not saying there are not logic arguments for taking Young, but I don't think that is really the main reason some of the fans want him.
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Old 01-17-2006   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorKnolle
UT runs a zone-read offense, and Vince will not be able to run that in the NFL. 90%+ of their snaps are out of a shotgun, which also will not happen in the NFL, Indy runs it maybe 5% of the time and sometimes Manning will audible into a shotgun. USC's offense is relatively similar to a pro offense, but UT is far from it.
Your point is well taken.

All QBs need to develop coming outta college. No matter what they ran. Tho it wasn't pro style, Vince in high school took tons of snaps under center, btw.

See e.g.:VY high school video--has sound (and words over the video), but you'll get the idea

Just saying.
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Old 01-17-2006   #20
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Originally Posted by MorKnolle
Saying that Vince doesn't need to adjust his throwing style is also just silly, throwing sidearm like that is going to make it very hard to get the ball off, it negates his height advantage over some QBs, and he can't make all the throws.
Carr resorts to his sidearm sometimes and who cares if he negates his height advantage because it's still better than some QBs.

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Originally Posted by MorKnolle
He can't throw an accurate ball more than 35 yards downfield...
Check the Kansas game when he was hitting WRs (Sweed and Crosby) downfield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorKnolle
he has a slow release...
NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE (except you now) has said VY has a slow release. Everyone says his best attribute in the passing game is the quick release he has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorKnolle
he has horrible footwork and doesn't step into his throws...
And Carr steps into throws and knows how to use the pocket??? Check the Cinnci game where he fumbled it away at the end. He never step up into his throw and there are countless times he sacks himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorKnolle
he doesn't read defenses very well unless they're backed off into a cover 2 zone and he can throw 3 yard routes underneath the defense.
You dont complete 75% of your passes and average 8.9 yards per completion in a championship game if you cant read a defense and only throw 3 yard underneat routes. And he averaged 14.3 yards per completion during the season, so this 3 yard underneath routes doesnt check out unless we had some of the best YAC WRs ever.

And, in any case, Carr doesnt throw 3 yard underneath routes against Cover 2??? lol, that's all he does againt Cover 2.
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