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Old 01-16-2006   #1
Marcus
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Default Would 'tweeners' Babin & Peek fit a 4-3 defense?

Both these guys were defensive ends in college. Small defensive ends . . . deemed too small to play in a standard NFL 4-3.

A Dwight Freeney, these two are not. Not nearly the quickness, speed, and strength that Freeney has in overcoming the bigger, and in most cases, very talented offensive tackles.

Casserly has mentioned on the radio, if the defense were switched to a 4-3, there would be a "surplus" in defensive tackles. If that's the case, you have to wonder if there are not enough defensive ends and linebackers to fit a 4-3 scheme.

And if you're wondering that, then you'd have to wonder if changing to the 4-3 would be the wisest move. If Peek and Babin can't get the job done as down linemen, then there would be a problem. I don't see them being any better as outside linebackers in a 4-3.

Thoughts?
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Old 01-16-2006   #2
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Default My Thoughts

I think that Babin is big enough (or can get big enough with a good offseason) to be an everydown weakside DE. Babin has shown consistently that he plays better from a three-point stance than standing up in space.

Peek cannot be an every down DE, however, I think he could be similar to Mathis in Indy - a passing down specialist. We need 2 DEs, one to start on the strongside and one as a quality backup. I think in a pinch Gary Walker could start at strongside w/ Peek coming in on passing situations. However, this is not ideal.

Neither Peek nor Babin is suited to play LB in a 4-3 scheme. Both Wong and Greenwood are ideally suited to be OLBs in a 4-3. We need to get a quality MLB via FA.

If we can get a serviceable MLB and 2 DEs via FA and/or the draft I think the swithc is doable. However, we will have to cut one of our DTs, likely Seth Payne (even though it is a huge cap it), to free up a roster spot.
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Old 01-16-2006   #3
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I think if we go 4-3 we are going to have to make a big investment in free agency and the draft, because of the LBs and ends as you noted. Most posts on this board are about improving the offense, because that is a lot more fun to think about IMO.

It will be hard to significantly improve talent on both sides of the ball in one year. However, all is not lost! The change in coaching can have as much impact next year as a new set of rookies.
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Old 01-16-2006   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Both these guys were defensive ends in college. Small defensive ends . . . deemed too small to play in a standard NFL 4-3.

A Dwight Freeney, these two are not. Not nearly the quickness, speed, and strength that Freeney has in overcoming the bigger, and in most cases, very talented offensive tackles.

Casserly has mentioned on the radio, if the defense were switched to a 4-3, there would be a "surplus" in defensive tackles. If that's the case, you have to wonder if there are not enough defensive ends and linebackers to fit a 4-3 scheme.

And if you're wondering that, then you'd have to wonder if changing to the 4-3 would be the wisest move. If Peek and Babin can't get the job done as down linemen, then there would be a problem. I don't see them being any better as outside linebackers in a 4-3.

Thoughts?
IMO Babin could line up as a RDE in the 4-3 like he did in college. Babin was a beast in college, and is now 20 pounds lighter than he was in college so should be a bit quicker than he was in college.
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Old 01-16-2006   #5
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You know who we need? Randy "Pink" Flloyd.
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Old 01-16-2006   #6
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What about a 4-6 defense?
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Old 01-16-2006   #7
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isnt that the defense the caveman ran
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Old 01-16-2006   #8
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^^^ LOL. I think we should go to a 4-3 with wong and greenwood on the outside
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Old 01-16-2006   #9
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I can't see either of them as anything other than an OLB in a 4-3 either.

If we switch, we need to get some trading done and pick up some real BEASTS to play DE.
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Old 01-16-2006   #10
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Why does no one think Babin can play DE again?
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Old 01-16-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Why does no one think Babin can play DE again?
Because like most of the Texans defenders, Babin struggled to get off blocks last season. His shoulder injury probably had a lot to due with that, because Babin was solid against the run in '04. If his shoulder is fully recovered, Jason should be given a shot at DE next season. I just wouldn't want to count on him getting it done, so a vet or a decent draft pick should be brought in.
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Old 01-16-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Why does no one think Babin can play DE again?
He just doesn't have the size to play an NFL DE. I wouldn't be that concerned from a pass rush standpoint, but he'd get run over in the ground attack.
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Old 01-16-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Why does no one think Babin can play DE again?
I believe he can. If anything, I think he's too big to play LB. He's listed on NFL.com at 6'3" (or 6'2" - short term memory loss) and 259 lbs. There aren't many OLBs that are that big. There are at least three or four DEs that are 260-269, and if Babin played heavier in college (20 lbs., as posted above) that would be right about the DE median weight in the NFL, actually (most are 270-279).
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Old 01-16-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Because like most of the Texans defenders, Babin struggled to get off blocks last season. His shoulder injury probably had a lot to due with that, because Babin was solid against the run in '04. If his shoulder is fully recovered, Jason should be given a shot at DE next season. I just wouldn't want to count on him getting it done, so a vet or a decent draft pick should be brought in.
Sure he has struggled some, because in college he played DE in a 4-3 and is now trying to play OLB in a 3-4, which is why I think he should get a shot as a DE in the 4-3, plus he had the shoulder injury earlier this season. He was a beast as a DE in the 4-3 in college, which is why we traded up to draft him.
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Old 01-16-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Why does no one think Babin can play DE again?
He probably could for a season until we fill the spot.
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Old 01-16-2006   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big B Texan Fan
He probably could for a season until we fill the spot.
I think he could fill it for longer. I think if Babin puts on a little more weight, that I would love him to have him back at DE, where he belongs. Babin is not a LB, he's not a coverage man. He does not seem comfortable when he has to go into coverage. Babin is just a bull-rush type of player. I say, if Babin goes back to DE, then he'll remind a lot of people Jason Taylor. Maybe not as good, but that type of player. Speed and strength.
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Old 01-16-2006   #17
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In college, as a DE in the 4-3, Babin had 299 tackles, 38 sacks, and 75 stops for losses. I see no reason he could not play RDE full time in a 4-3. And as far as size does, Babin now is listed as 6'2'' 260, compared to Dwight Freeney at 6'1'' 268, John Abraham at 6'4'' 258, Mike Rucker at 6'5'' 275, Osi Umenyiora at 6'3'' 280, Trent Cole, 6'2'' 260, and Javon Kearse at 6'4'' 265, not much of a difference between these guys as far as size goes...
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Old 01-16-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigTEXan8
I think he could fill it for longer. I think if Babin puts on a little more weight, that I would love him to have him back at DE, where he belongs. Babin is not a LB, he's not a coverage man. He does not seem comfortable when he has to go into coverage. Babin is just a bull-rush type of player. I say, if Babin goes back to DE, then he'll remind a lot of people Jason Taylor. Maybe not as good, but that type of player. Speed and strength.
Ya know, maybe you're right. I've always said it sickens me how we've (Cass and Capers) made a bad habit of drafting marginal players to play a whole different position in the NFL. If we want OLB's for a 3-4 then lets get some collegiate LB's not undersized DE's. At least don't do it alot, once, is understandable.
As far as your comparison to Taylor.......c'mon, get real.
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Old 01-16-2006   #19
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Babin "plays smaller" than his size/weight. He simply doesn't seem to have the strength/technique/whatever to get the job done, even from a 'pure' pass rush standpoint.

The one-trick-pony spin move doesn't seem to have evolved much from his first season. Maybe that's because he's had to concentrate too hard for the "Fangio 3-4" that had him trying too many reads, or maybe he just doesn't have the 'stuff' of which NFL DEs are made.

Much of this next season will be spent re-grading our entire roster to see if lousy schemes can be blamed for much of the failure, or if our talent really DOES suffer as much as it seemed during our 2-14 run.
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Old 01-16-2006   #20
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I don't get where you are gathering that from. Babin was very good his rookie year and for the most part of this year he sat because of a shoulder injury and was basically useless when he was trying to play it through. Now I can understand if you don't like the WAY we got him by trading for so many players, but he's still a very good player. He blew up teams towards the end of the season when he was healthier. Now if he moves to a 4-3 he'll be just as forceful.
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