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Old 01-16-2006   #1
Bayern
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Default The Houston Product

I started discussing this with some other posters in another thread. Perhaps this deserves its own.

If the table had been turned, talent levels and performance were the same but Lienart was the Houston boy, born and raised. Do you think the hype stays the same?

I'm asking because I feel Houston is being blinded by what this guy has done simply because he is from Houston.
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Old 01-16-2006   #2
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Well of course not. We would be talking about Bush. If people wanted a new QB, we would be talking about ALL of them, not just one. I think thats the key.
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Old 01-16-2006   #3
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There would be talk of VY, sure, because I think that there are people on this message board who feel that, all other things being equal, VY is the best.

But a lot of this is his hometown status and Rose Bowl performance, pure and simple. Bottom line is that the VY traffic probably went up 5-10x since that damned game.
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Old 01-16-2006   #4
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This is exactly what I was expecting to hear. Thanks guys.

It really IS that simple. Vince's talent is only half of the equation. The hometown player stuff is just dominating.

This really bothers me because who cares where he's from.... is he talented enough to be the no. 1 pick? I'd venture to say 90 percent of the country would say no.
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Old 01-16-2006   #5
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Default I don't care where he is from--maybe the planet NoWayIJustSawHimDoThat

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Originally Posted by Bayern
This really bothers me because who cares where he's from.... is he talented enough to be the no. 1 pick? I'd venture to say 90 percent of the country would say no.
Various thoughts:

1. Not been a Leinart fan for Houston and wouldn't be even if he were the hometown guy. He is not mobile enough for our line and has been dinged. Carr Haters and Lovers agree, at least Carr is durable.

2. VY is legit as the Number 1 pick--compare to 2001 draft. Stats don't say everything, but VY's intangibles remarkably go beyond his gaudy stats:


Mike Vick (last college season), Drafted 1st, 60, 214 lbs

1439 passing yards
54.19 completion percentage
179 attempts for 97 completions, 8.0 av yards per attempt
9 passing TDs with 7 INTs
113 rushes for 636 yards, 5.6 av yards per attempt, 9 rushing TDs

Vince Young (last college season), Drafted ???? 6 5 230 lbs

3036 passing yards
65.2 completion percentage
325 attempts for 212 completions, 9.3 av yards per attempt
26 passing TDs with 10 INTs
155 rushes for 1050 yards, 6.8 av yards per attempt, 12 rushing TDs

Vick was picked first in 2001, and VY is a more complete passer than Vick and has gaudier running stats.

3. I don't care where he is from. It can be a plus factor that he actually wants to come here and take the risk of being part of a new franchise (not all players would be that way). I believe in picking best player available and not by need, and in my opinion that is VY.
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Old 01-16-2006   #6
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I'll say this now... I'm not a huge college fan, by any means. What I saw of college was on Sportscenter in the mornings and when I was at my girlfriends on saturday (huge UT fan). I've thought for most of the season that Vince would do wonders for the Texans, improved line or not.

I've wanted VY for two reasons:
1. His versatility, I think, makes him an extremely exciting player. Regardless of performance, I would love to see Young here just to be able to watch on Sundays. Granted, its not a reason to pick him, but its a reason the fans want him.
2. Leadership. How many times have you heard the announcers talk about what people have coined the "Vince Vibe?" We need that. Even when he was down by two scores, the Vince Vibe never disappeared. Just the mere fact that we have him on the sideline and in the locker room would be a huge morale boost for our team.

I admire Carr a great deal for sticking with us for four years, and I really do like him, it is for those reasons that I feel we need to get him out of here. Put him somewhere where he won't break his own record (again) for most sacks in a season on any NFL QB. He has just lost confidence in himself and our team has lost confidence in him as well. In my honest opinion, I think that he needs to start over on a team that can protect him better from the start.
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Old 01-16-2006   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayern
I started discussing this with some other posters in another thread. Perhaps this deserves its own.

If the table had been turned, talent levels and performance were the same but Lienart was the Houston boy, born and raised. Do you think the hype stays the same?

I'm asking because I feel Houston is being blinded by what this guy has done simply because he is from Houston.
If I gave you a ticket to a game and you could ultimatley determine what QB you would go see, which one would you pick regardless of what city you were from...Matt or Vince?
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Old 01-16-2006   #8
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Default Mommy, make the bad nightmares go away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BREAZE
If I gave you a ticket to a game and you could ultimatley determine what QB you would go see, which one would you pick regardless of what city you were from...Matt or Vince?

Oooooh, Vince. Unless VY is in a Titans uniform. ACK!!!!!
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Old 01-16-2006   #9
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I would also add this would not be nearly an issue if our division rival and old enemy Tenn. did not have the #3 pick...
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Old 01-16-2006   #10
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i've said this before about matt leinart, but the reason he, or jay cutler, or omar jacobs arent in the equation to replace david carr is that vince young is a different style of quarterback. Matt Leinart is a pocket passer. A pocket passer, in houstons o-line, gets murdered. See the first 4 years in david carrs career. putting another stiff, non versatile qb behind the line accomplishes nothing productive but getting that qb sacked 100 + times in the next 4 seasons. David Carr getting replaced makes a lot more sense then dominack davis getting replaced or augmented.
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Old 01-16-2006   #11
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Well to me it does not matter i would take Either Matt Or Vince just look at it either one is and upgrade over our current situation.
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Old 01-16-2006   #12
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I disagree that replacing the QB is the best way to fix a bad Oline.

Even so.. running QBs are not as productive in the NFL as pocket QBs.. and I think we should go forward with that in mind. Make the pocket QB work... it will pay dividends in the future.
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Old 01-16-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayern
I started discussing this with some other posters in another thread. Perhaps this deserves its own.

If the table had been turned, talent levels and performance were the same but Lienart was the Houston boy, born and raised. Do you think the hype stays the same?

I'm asking because I feel Houston is being blinded by what this guy has done simply because he is from Houston.
I'm sorry, but this seems to me a stupid question. People are entralled with Vince Young. Period. His talent, his ability, his "vibe." He has something NOBODY ELSE HAS--major talent and charisma combined, and the latter clearly comes from the former.

So no, if the performances were the same as they were, but Lienart was from Houston, we'd still be beating the drum for Vince Young. This holds true for about 95% of the VY posters on the board.

We're interested in his extraordinary talents and capabilities as a football player, which talents and capabilities (a) far exceed anyone else available in the draft, and (b) far exceed anyone currently on our team, and (c) will become the foundation of teh Texans for the next decade. He's going to be a perpetual Pro Bowl QB, a leader in the league just as he has been everywhere else. The fact that he's home grown is just the gravy.

If the Texans pass on Young to pick Bush or to drop down in the draft, they will regret it for the next ten years.

What I don't understand is how supposed supporters of this team can't see that Vince Young is like the Earl Campbell of this moment. Passing on Young would be exactly like having passed on Earl Campbell, who lead the Houston football franchise during its best ever years.

Who wants THAT on their resume?
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Old 01-16-2006   #14
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beleive me.. some of us are just as perplexed by your opinions sometimes Nighthawk.

Like for example.. you are amazed by VYs talents.. yet he is obviously a very raw QB with plenty of upside, but also alot of work to do before he reaches NFL quality.

You claim he far exceeds anyone else in the draft.. and im sorry but anyone who says that Bush is not as good or at least close to as good of a prospect as Young is turning a blind eye. Bush is a great prospect.. if you like Young better, thats fine.. but claiming that Young far exceeds him is just not accurate.

Far exceeds anyone on our team before playing a down in the NFL.. going to be a perpetual pro bowl QB.. a leader in the league... im a Bush supporter but even I wont make claims like this without at least putting a "hopefully" at the end. There is no such thing as a sure thing in the Draft.

And i personally feel that Bush could be the Campbell of this moment.. which is why I dont want to pass on him.. especially for a running QB that needs alot of work.. double especially considering that running QBs have not won a superbowl yet.

look at the 4 teams that are still in the playoffs and tell me what you notice? Ill help you out. Dominant running games.. good defenses.. and a QB that wont leave the pocket unless he is rolling out to make a pass.
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Old 01-16-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
beleive me.. some of us are just as perplexed by your opinions sometimes Nighthawk.

Like for example.. you are amazed by VYs talents.. yet he is obviously a very raw QB with plenty of upside, but also alot of work to do before he reaches NFL quality.

You claim he far exceeds anyone else in the draft.. and im sorry but anyone who says that Bush is not as good or at least close to as good of a prospect as Young is turning a blind eye. Bush is a great prospect.. if you like Young better, thats fine.. but claiming that Young far exceeds him is just not accurate.

Far exceeds anyone on our team before playing a down in the NFL.. going to be a perpetual pro bowl QB.. a leader in the league... im a Bush supporter but even I wont make claims like this without at least putting a "hopefully" at the end. There is no such thing as a sure thing in the Draft.

And i personally feel that Bush could be the Campbell of this moment.. which is why I dont want to pass on him.. especially for a running QB that needs alot of work.. double especially considering that running QBs have not won a superbowl yet.

look at the 4 teams that are still in the playoffs and tell me what you notice? Ill help you out. Dominant running games.. good defenses.. and a QB that wont leave the pocket unless he is rolling out to make a pass.
let me correct your vision sir....you see DOMINANT defenses.....carolina, denver, seattle, and pittsburgh are all cream of the crop....qb's that actually HAVE a pocket to throw from, and capable running games built from solid olines. What reggie bush is, is a 200 pound scatback that doesnt particularly like running through 2/3rds of any football field. Campbell was a strong beast. Reggie is a fast raghib ismail. Im not claming bush is a bad prospect. Im claiming he will be a pro bust. (in my opinion, for any picky folks). I dont think he has the right skills....like i've said, i'll be the first cheering for him if he happens to get picked, but i think he has farther to fall than anybody else in the draft, vince young included.
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Old 01-16-2006   #16
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Eh.. actually.. Carolina and Pittsburg are top 10 defenses. Denver and Seattle are 15 and 17, respectively

Interestingly enough.. Seattle and Denver are top 10 offenses.. with Pitts and Carolina falling at 16 and 22 on offense.

and Bush is the same size as Tiki Barber. And is comparable in size to Clinton Portis, Terrell Davis (2 very successful Denver RBs) and Barry Sanders.
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Old 01-17-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
Eh.. actually.. Carolina and Pittsburg are top 10 defenses. Denver and Seattle are 15 and 17, respectively

Interestingly enough.. Seattle and Denver are top 10 offenses.. with Pitts and Carolina falling at 16 and 22 on offense.

and Bush is the same size as Tiki Barber. And is comparable in size to Clinton Portis, Terrell Davis (2 very successful Denver RBs) and Barry Sanders.
to me that dude grid just need to shut up and take his so called wanna be a texan fan back where he came from
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Old 01-17-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
look at the 4 teams that are still in the playoffs and tell me what you notice? Ill help you out. Dominant running games.. good defenses.. and a QB that wont leave the pocket unless he is rolling out to make a pass.
A guy like bush, who is 50% receiver, is not going to give you a "dominant running game" no matter how hard you may wish it. I'll grant he's terrific, a great YAC guy, but I don't believe he can carry the team.

The reason I (and others) say that Young is much better, in spite of his rawness, is that he CAN CARRY A TEAM, as he has done many times in college, most recently the astonishing Rose Bowl.

So we end up saying: Hey! Wake up! This is not just a great QB prospect, this is an extraordinary person and player, and we end up invoking the name of the greatest player in Houston football, Earl Campbell, to suggest the way in which we are seeing Vince Young. And we are stunned that others don't see that. We KNOW THAT HE'S RAW, we're looking beyond that, at the person, the whole project, and it looks like he's the NEXT BIG THING.

Bush, on the other hand, you'd cite some stats and say if all goes well he'll be merely excellent.
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Old 01-17-2006   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swtbound07
let me correct your vision sir....you see DOMINANT defenses.....carolina, denver, seattle, and pittsburgh are all cream of the crop....qb's that actually HAVE a pocket to throw from, and capable running games built from solid olines. What reggie bush is, is a 200 pound scatback that doesnt particularly like running through 2/3rds of any football field. Campbell was a strong beast. Reggie is a fast raghib ismail. Im not claming bush is a bad prospect. Im claiming he will be a pro bust. (in my opinion, for any picky folks). I dont think he has the right skills....like i've said, i'll be the first cheering for him if he happens to get picked, but i think he has farther to fall than anybody else in the draft, vince young included.
Lol, there's no logic in this post, so noone should bother reading it.
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Old 01-17-2006   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk
The reason I (and others) say that Young is much better, in spite of his rawness, is that he CAN CARRY A TEAM, as he has done many times in college, most recently the astonishing Rose Bowl.

So we end up saying: Hey! Wake up! This is not just a great QB prospect, this is an extraordinary person and player, and we end up invoking the name of the greatest player in Houston football, Earl Campbell, to suggest the way in which we are seeing Vince Young. And we are stunned that others don't see that. We KNOW THAT HE'S RAW, we're looking beyond that, at the person, the whole project, and it looks like he's the NEXT BIG THING.
First off Vince didn't carry any team. Carrying a team is Barry Sanders where he literally did all the work while his team watched. Your comment wether intentionally or not belittles the rest of the Texas team. He had a great O-line he had a dominant defense and good receivers and backfield. He by no ways carried that team. He may be a great player, but he in no way carried that team. Did he make them a better team, yes, is he an exceptional athlete, yes, does he show poise and leadership skills, yes, did he carry the team, hell no.

I will just dismiss the comparison to Earl because you are making a mockery in what you said and I won't carry it on.

When you and others say you are looking beyond something it means you are seeing what you want to see. Hindsight is 20/20 because neither you or I or anybody else on this board can know what the next big thing is until it's here. I don't know why you said the things you said, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, and it's my opinion that you are in danger of getting caught up in the hype.
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