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Old 01-11-2006   #1
gtexan02
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Default Unbiased comparison of VY and Reggie Bush?

Ok here are the rules for this thread:

Post a Pro/Con (try to be honest and unbiased here) about either VY or Bush. If you post a pro about VY, you must also post a con. If you post a con about Bush, you must also post a Pro for him, etc. Limit your responses to 1 Pro/Con per post!

I'll start by summing up most of what I've heard so far on the boards:

Reggie Bush
Pros:
Plays 3 positoins very well (WR, RB, PR)
Is extremely fast (around a 4.3 40 time)
Has ridiculous juking moves
Sees the field very well, finding holes and exploding into them
Has the size to run over/stiff arm would be tacklers
Is being compared to Gale Sayers
Mentored by LT

Cons:
Generally averages around 15 carries per game
Runs East-West more often than between the tackles
We already have Domanick Davis
Bush's success is partly due to the great USC O-Line, and if he played behind our OL, who knows what would happen

Stats:
200 Rush Attempts for 1740 yards (8.7 ypc) and 16 rushing TDs (0 fumbles)
37 Receptions for 478 yards (12.9 ypc) and 2 receiving TDs

In Important Situations: Rosebowl Game Stats (Against University of Texas- #6 Total Defense)
13 Carries for 82 yards (6.3 ypc) 1 Rushing TD, 6 receptions for 95 yards

Vince Young
Pros:
Has the heart of a champion, and knows how to win games
Can create plays with his legs
Became an accurate and efficient passer his junior year
Sees the whole field well
Makes players around him better
Mentored by Steve McNair

Cons:
Wacky half-flip throwing motion
Tends to try to win games single handedly in crunch time
We already have David Carr
Played well because of UTs great OL. Behind ours, who knows what would happen

Stats:
212/325 passes (65.2% completion) for 3036 yards (9.34 ypa) for 26 tds and 10 ints

155 rushing attempts for 1050 yards (6.8 ypc) for 12 TDs and 0 fumbles

In Important Games (Rose Bowl stats versus #40 total ranked USC defense)
30/40 for 267 yards and 0 TDs. Rushed 19 times for 200 yards and 3 TDs
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Old 01-11-2006   #2
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Bush
Pro: Fills our need for a back to share carries with DD, who compliments DDs running style.

Cons: Ties up alot of Cap space in our backfield.



Vince Young

Pros: A clean slate to start over with.

Cons: Running QBs dont win championships.
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Old 01-11-2006   #3
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I disagree with you Grid about Young being a "running QB". When I think of a running QB, I think of Antwan Randle El in college or Michael Vick's college and early NFL career. In my time watching Young in the championship game he always looked to pass first before running unless it was a designed run. I think he's very similar to Steve McNair in that he doesn't "run" unless there's nobody open and he has to scramble to evade pressure. McNair was 6 inches from a championship, and he made that Titans team, he didn't break it. I think Young's playstyle is conducive to winning championships, IMO.
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Old 01-11-2006   #4
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http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review40.html


this article seemed pretty good
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Old 01-11-2006   #5
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Reggie:
Pro : Teams have to game plan around him. No current Texans with the exception of AJ have that kind of talent.

Con : Big $ would be tied up in RB

Vince :

Pro : 1st ever to pass for 3000 and rush for 1000. Could have easily padded those stats even further but came out in the 3rd quarter of most games.

Con : Would spell the end a David Carr in Houston. I don't know how the front office looks that guy in the face after subjecting him 200+ sacks without getting him any help. I still think he has the skills to get it done. I don't think there are many QBs around that could take that kind of beating and still take as many snaps as he has.
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Old 01-11-2006   #6
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Bush
Pro: Comes from a sucessful program.

Con: Inflated numbers against some of the worst Div I defenses.


Young
Pro: Amazaing physical tools are ability to read zone defenses. Satisfies the common "man crush"

Con: Raw passer, not from pro style offense.
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Old 01-11-2006   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
Vince Young

Pros: A clean slate to start over with.

Cons: Running QBs dont win championships.
And no number 1 pick for an expansion team has ever won one either...so is that another con for Carr???
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Old 01-11-2006   #8
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Just because a so called running QB hasn't won a SB doesn't mean one won't.
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Old 01-11-2006   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmantx
Just because a so called running QB hasn't won a SB doesn't mean one won't.
true, but sucess tends to follow history.
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Old 01-11-2006   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddy
And no number 1 pick for an expansion team has ever won one either...so is that another con for Carr???
So then why even bother picking a QB #1 again?

Im neiter for nor against VY yet by the way.
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Old 01-11-2006   #11
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ok.. well then how about

"Running QBs do not make the playoffs as often"

look around the league and tell me that isnt true.



As for "the #1 pick for an expansion team".. that is kind of an odd stat. Thats like saying no RB has ever run for 100 yards in a single quarter of overtime. It may be true.. but its a very small sample size .
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Old 01-11-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungTexanFan
So then why even bother picking a QB #1 again?

Im neiter for nor against VY yet by the way.
I'm saying the teams first ever pick. A teams first ever pick has never won a Super Bowl. If y'all are going to say scrambling QBs have never won one, which VY isnt a scramble first QB, then I can bring up that no first number 1 for an expansion team has never won one.
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Old 01-11-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
ok.. well then how about

"Running QBs do not make the playoffs as often"

look around the league and tell me that isnt true.



As for "the #1 pick for an expansion team".. that is kind of an odd stat. Thats like saying no RB has ever run for 100 yards in a single quarter of overtime. It may be true.. but its a very small sample size .
And relative to NFL history, there hasnt been many scrambling QBs. Just a few before the outburst over the last few years.

And I hate to tell you, 3 scrambling QBs made the playoffs last year: McNabb, Vick and Culpepper all made it. McNabb made it to the Super Bowl, Vick to the Championship game and Culpepper lost to Vick after beating Favre. So saying they dont make the playoffs isnt very true either when McNabb has been there about 5 times, I think, maybe just 4. Vick twice and Culpepper has been there once or twice. And McNair has been to the playoff a few times and even a Superbowl.
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Old 01-11-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddy
I'm saying the teams first ever pick. A teams first ever pick has never won a Super Bowl. If y'all are going to say scrambling QBs have never won one, which VY isnt a scramble first QB, then I can bring up that no first number 1 for an expansion team has never won one.
its a stretch, and you may be a little far out on the limb, but for arguments sake, how many expansion teams have won a superbolw with their original QB?

VY isnt a scrambler, he is a player. He can scramble but he looks to pass first.

Again, I am neither for or against him at this point.
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Old 01-11-2006   #15
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This whole "vince young isnt a run first QB" thing.. is kinda silly.

Is there such thing as a run first QB? Vick maybe.

A running QB is a QB who makes plays with his legs if he cant find an open receiver. That doesnt sound like a bad thing.. until you consider that QBs who stay in the pocket and make plays with their arms..are the ones who win superbowls. While one QB might roll out and look for the open guy.. a running QB may look for a hole and run it himself.

It may not seem huge.. but it is.. in big games with two really talented teams.. its the passing plays that win games.. that is where the big plays come from.

If you want to argue VY as a pocket QB vs. Carr as a pocket QB.. id say Carr is the winner. Quote VYs college stats all you want.. but he does NOT have Carrs passing abilities. You call VY a great accurate passer.. but how many of those passes were 5-7 yard dump offs to his favorite target, David Thomas? Compare VYs passing stats in college to Carr's passing stats in college and i think it will show that Carr has the upper hand there.

Choosing between Carr the Pocket QB and Reggie Bush.. or just VY the pocket QB.. i gotta go with Carr and Bush.
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Old 01-11-2006   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
This whole "vince young isnt a run first QB" thing.. is kinda silly.

Is there such thing as a run first QB? Vick maybe.

A running QB is a QB who makes plays with his legs if he cant find an open receiver. That doesnt sound like a bad thing.. until you consider that QBs who stay in the pocket and make plays with their arms..are the ones who win superbowls. While one QB might roll out and look for the open guy.. a running QB may look for a hole and run it himself.

It may not seem huge.. but it is.. in big games with two really talented teams.. its the passing plays that win games.. that is where the big plays come from.

If you want to argue VY as a pocket QB vs. Carr as a pocket QB.. id say Carr is the winner. Quote VYs college stats all you want.. but he does NOT have Carrs passing abilities. You call VY a great accurate passer.. but how many of those passes were 5-7 yard dump offs to his favorite target, David Thomas? Compare VYs passing stats in college to Carr's passing stats in college and i think it will show that Carr has the upper hand there.

Choosing between Carr the Pocket QB and Reggie Bush.. or just VY the pocket QB.. i gotta go with Carr and Bush.
no arguments except for bush, but that is another post and has been beaten already.
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Old 01-11-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
A running QB is a QB who makes plays with his legs if he cant find an open receiver. That doesnt sound like a bad thing.. until you consider that QBs who stay in the pocket and make plays with their arms..are the ones who win superbowls. While one QB might roll out and look for the open guy.. a running QB may look for a hole and run it himself.
And Carr stays in the pocket??? After two seconds he starts "scrambling" outside the pocket and then sacks himself when he runs into the way of a defender because the o-lineman have no idea where he is. Carr is probably more of a "scrambler" than VY. Carr hasnt learned any pocket presence in 4 years. I've never seen him stay in the pocket till the last possible second then release the ball knowing he is going to get hit. He gets happy feet, runs outside the pocket and then makes the o-line look bad when he takes a sack and doesnt throw the ball away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungTexanFan
its a stretch, and you may be a little far out on the limb, but for arguments sake, how many expansion teams have won a superbolw with their original QB?
None and that's what I'm saying. If you are going to go pull up the history of the NFL, then Carr should be out of here because history has told us an expansion's team orignal first pick will not win a Superbowl. There are other times to use NFL history, this is not one of those.
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Old 01-11-2006   #18
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Quote:
And Carr stays in the pocket??? After two seconds he starts "scrambling" outside the pocket and then sacks himself when he runs into the way of a defender because the o-lineman have no idea where he is. Carr is probably more of a "scrambler" than VY. Carr hasnt learned any pocket presence in 4 years. I've never seen him stay in the pocket till the last possible second then release the ball knowing he is going to get hit. He gets happy feet, runs outside the pocket and then makes the o-line look bad when he takes a sack and doesnt throw the ball away
Well he has been trying to make plays with a bad line .. that isnt the type of QB he is though. He has an origin as a pocket QB.. and with coaching and an improved Oline he could return to that. Id say its easier to re-teach a former Pocket QB, than to teach a running QB without pocket QB characteristics, to be a pocket QB.

We totally hijacked this thread
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Old 01-11-2006   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
Well he has been trying to make plays with a bad line ..
That's where we differ. You think the line is bad, I think the QB makes the O-line look bad because of his poor pocket awareness.
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Old 01-11-2006   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddy
None and that's what I'm saying. If you are going to go pull up the history of the NFL, then Carr should be out of here because history has told us an expansion's team orignal first pick will not win a Superbowl. There are other times to use NFL history, this is not one of those.
So how many 2nd for an expansion team QB's have there been fiddy?

Predicting SB QB's is harder than the lotto. There is a system of numbers for the lotto, so much more to factor in for a SB QB.
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