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Old 01-11-2006   #1
Nighthawk
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Default The Last Vince Young Thread

I know it's presumptuous. Forgive me.

Here's the deal. Young is too big a potential star to pass up. Plain and simple, that's what it comes to. He might be a bust, though the odds are pretty much against it, and he might not be the best QB in NFL history.

On the other hand, he MIGHT BE the best QB in NFL history. Who else can you say that about? Nobody. So the Texans have to take him at number 1.

The next problem is Carr. After much reflection and against my own wishes, I think the Texans will figure some way to keep Carr for the next year or two. I figure Young will grow very fast and take over the team some time late nest year or in 2007. At that point, if Carr has improved he can either stay and back up Young, or, if he's vaulable trade material, get the trade people are talking about this year.

Young is a once-in-a-lifetime prospect, and that's the kind of thing you can't ignore. Lienart will be a good NFL QB, but his upside isn't even close to Young's. That's why you didn't hear anybody screaming about taking Lienart over Bush.

So it comes to keeping Carr and taking Bush, and working some financial wizardry to make it work. Were it me I'd trade Carr for picks now, use Banks next year while Vice gets a handle on things, or make a low level trade for a journeyman vet for next year.

I do not think that's what McNair will do. The safe bet, from his point of view, is keep Carr until we're 100% sure Vince is going to be a superstar.
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Old 01-11-2006   #2
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What about Ragone? Would you consider giving him a shot next season if the team trades off Carr? It's funny how no one has mentioned him amidst all of this.
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Old 01-11-2006   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk
I know it's presumptuous. Forgive me.

Here's the deal. Young is too big a potential star to pass up. Plain and simple, that's what it comes to. He might be a bust, though the odds are pretty much against it, and he might not be the best QB in NFL history.

On the other hand, he MIGHT BE the best QB in NFL history. Who else can you say that about? Nobody. So the Texans have to take him at number 1.

The next problem is Carr. After much reflection and against my own wishes, I think the Texans will figure some way to keep Carr for the next year or two. I figure Young will grow very fast and take over the team some time late nest year or in 2007. At that point, if Carr has improved he can either stay and back up Young, or, if he's vaulable trade material, get the trade people are talking about this year.

Young is a once-in-a-lifetime prospect, and that's the kind of thing you can't ignore. Lienart will be a good NFL QB, but his upside isn't even close to Young's. That's why you didn't hear anybody screaming about taking Lienart over Bush.

So it comes to keeping Carr and taking Bush, and working some financial wizardry to make it work. Were it me I'd trade Carr for picks now, use Banks next year while Vice gets a handle on things, or make a low level trade for a journeyman vet for next year.

I do not think that's what McNair will do. The safe bet, from his point of view, is keep Carr until we're 100% sure Vince is going to be a superstar.


I will set my body on fire if this is the last vince young thread made......too many months left before draft day.
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Old 01-11-2006   #4
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Best QB in NFL history? The guy hasn't even stepped on an NFL field! The reason you don't hear anyone screaming about Leinhart is because he isn't from Texas.
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Old 01-11-2006   #5
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The Chargers afforded it last year and this year. 2 QB's on the roster that are high paid . This year had more $$ spent for them though. They'e still alive.
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Old 01-11-2006   #6
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No way this is the last VY thread. Not even the last thread of the week, but good shot at it.
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Old 01-11-2006   #7
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Originally Posted by Big B Texan Fan
The Chargers afforded it last year and this year. 2 QB's on the roster that are high paid . This year had more $$ spent for them though. They'e still alive.

They had significantly more cap space to work with then than we do now.
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Old 01-11-2006   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk
I know it's presumptuous. Forgive me.

Here's the deal. Young is too big a potential star to pass up. Plain and simple, that's what it comes to. He might be a bust, though the odds are pretty much against it, and he might not be the best QB in NFL history.

On the other hand, he MIGHT BE the best QB in NFL history. Who else can you say that about? Nobody. So the Texans have to take him at number 1...

...I do not think that's what McNair will do. The safe bet, from his point of view, is keep Carr until we're 100% sure Vince is going to be a superstar.
Quick notes to a couple things here:
1. Ref. drafting possibly the "best QB in NFL history"...Tom Brady, 7th round pick to NE. 3 SB rings and 2 SB MVPs and won a SB in his 1st season as a starter. If Vince does that I'll strip naked and do the hokey pokey on the 50yrd line.

2. You'll never know 100% about anyone...it took most Carr haters 2.5 to 3 seasons to cement their decision that Carr needed to go.
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Old 01-11-2006   #9
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You could say that about half of the young, starting QBs in this league could become the best NFL QB of all time, and a case could be made for Favre and Manning to be included in that elite group, and I am not at all ready to include Vince in that group, not until he actually steps onto the NFL field and proves himself for a couple years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookem Horns
What about Ragone? Would you consider giving him a shot next season if the team trades off Carr? It's funny how no one has mentioned him amidst all of this.
That's because Dave Ragone is not very good. Any lack of development that you have seen in Carr is mainly due to poor coaching, and Ragone has been receiving that poor coaching his whole career too, but David came out of college a much better QB than Ragone and has gotten to play in 60 some games and gain experience from that, which Ragone also has not gotten to do. Putting the team in Ragone's hands next year will basically guarantee us another 2-14 record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texan279
Best QB in NFL history? The guy hasn't even stepped on an NFL field! The reason you don't hear anyone screaming about Leinhart is because he isn't from Texas.
Agreed, outside of Texas, and mainly Houston, the general consensus is that we either take Bush or trade down. No one else is really considering Vince as a serious option because they all realize the potential that David still has if we'd give him a decent team and coach to work with and they aren't blinded by their hometown loyalties. Fans of certain teams (especially the Raiders) are now hoping we will draft Vince so we will trade Carr to their team because they realize how good of a QB he can become.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big B Texan Fan
The Chargers afforded it last year and this year. 2 QB's on the roster that are high paid . This year had more $$ spent for them though. They'e still alive.
1) That's the Chargers and if they want to have cap problems from doing so then I have no problems with it.
2) They are not paying their two QBs anywhere near what we would. Rivers was taken at #4, and although he held out to get #1-type money (his holdout cost him his job anyways, otherwise the Chargers may have had the same success with him since the rest of the team improved so much and everyone would be saying about what a great deal the Chargers made to get Rivers), his contract was about $15-20 million less than what Vince Young will receive as the outright #1 pick, add that to the fact that David Carr is going to be receiving around $8.5 million a year with his new contract, and that makes for some bad cap problems, especially for a team that already has some unnecessarily huge contracts (Wade, McKinney, Walker, Payne, Greenwood, etc.) and that is going to need some cap room to try to bring in some free agents and the rest of their draft picks to actually improve this team.

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Old 01-12-2006   #10
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Couple of points.

I did not say Vince Young "would" be the best QB in NFL history, I said he might not be but at least he has the chance. I do not think you can say that about many of the QBs in the league, certainly not "half of the young, starting QBs." Carr, for example, clearly won't ever be the best QB in the NFL.

You know nothing of Ragone and neither do I. The coaches kept a lid on him and what people saw in practice doesn't count. Besides, everybody's got an agenda, even you. You're all about Carr Forever, aren't you? All your posts say as much.

Outside of Texas the "real" fans haven't been watching Vince Young for the last three years. And they've heard all the hype about the brilliance of Reggie Bush. He's no doubt a considerable talent, but I don't see it as a talent that's going to tear up the NFL. I suspect he'll do well, just not THAT well.

I prefer trading Carr now, if we can get anything like value from him, which I personally doubt. I figure we might get a number 2 pick at best, but then who knows. Some other people on other msg boards at least seem to think he could help their teams. In fact, I would not mind affording him the opportunity for a fresh start somewhere else, especially if we get Young and some draft picks out of the deal.

If we keep Carr, which seems likely, then I'm absolutely certain McNair and his financial wizards can figure out a way to keep both of them for a year or two, thus putting us in the best position to benefit the franchise in the long run.

My original point was, and is, that Vince Young presents a remarkable talent that is too big to pass up. I grant that there's a possibility he's not all he looks like he might be. But if he's half as good as he looks like he might be, he's twice as good as Carr, so it's hard to lose by taking him.
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Old 01-12-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk
Couple of points.

Outside of Texas the "real" fans haven't been watching Vince Young for the last three years. And they've heard all the hype about the brilliance of Reggie Bush. He's no doubt a considerable talent, but I don't see it as a talent that's going to tear up the NFL. I suspect he'll do well, just not THAT well.
I'm so frakin sick of this stupid opinion that the so-called real fans havn't wathced VY ans that the only reason they say Reggie is beeter is casue they didn't watch VY. This is just flatout arrogant. Firstly all of the draft gurus and professional writers HAVE watcehd VY alot this year, no matter where in the country they are; secondly all this talk of the "REAL" fans is just moronic; Ijust because you've seen every VY snap (and probally very little of Bush) dosn't entitle you to lord over everybody who disagrees with you.

I trust the guys who do this (draft evaluation) for a living, which isn;t you, and they nearly all say Bushis the best player to leave college in several years. Some have VY near the top, some don't; but none to my knowledge have anybody rated higher the Reggie.
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Old 01-12-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk
I know it's presumptuous. Forgive me.

Here's the deal. Young is too big a potential star to pass up. Plain and simple, that's what it comes to. He might be a bust, though the odds are pretty much against it, and he might not be the best QB in NFL history.

On the other hand, he MIGHT BE the best QB in NFL history. Who else can you say that about? Nobody. So the Texans have to take him at number 1.
Oh my gosh....

Are you serious? Vince doesn't even sit under the center and take snaps. Once he "learns" how to get under the center and get the ball, you think he can still run like he does now? I don't. The pocket will close and in the "pro" league, the pocket will collapse faster than it did at Texas. You think pro linebackers and defensive ends are going to just let him run like day light? It will take them 2 games before they learn to stop it and try and make him "pass" the ball which we ALL KNOW he still needs to learn how to do.

Now take Matt Leinart. He is already learned to pass from the pocket and recieve snaps from "under" the center which has to be done to get anywhere in the NFL. So please spare me this Vince Young is God stuff and let's move on.
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Old 01-12-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoth-Boy
I'm so frakin sick of this stupid opinion that the so-called real fans havn't wathced VY ans that the only reason they say Reggie is beeter is casue they didn't watch VY. This is just flatout arrogant. Firstly all of the draft gurus and professional writers HAVE watcehd VY alot this year, no matter where in the country they are; secondly all this talk of the "REAL" fans is just moronic; Ijust because you've seen every VY snap (and probally very little of Bush) dosn't entitle you to lord over everybody who disagrees with you.

I trust the guys who do this (draft evaluation) for a living, which isn;t you, and they nearly all say Bushis the best player to leave college in several years. Some have VY near the top, some don't; but none to my knowledge have anybody rated higher the Reggie.
Most of the so-called gurus of nfl draft usually go with who they think will go in the top 10 so they will not look stupid, not who they consider is better than who. Casserly is a so called guru. In all of our 2nd and 3rd pix (whether we kept the pick or tradeed it) since the teams inception Cass has only hit on 1 of them out of a possible 11 (give or take 1 on the 11, I think I got it right).

Anyways, Those draft sites want hits on their sites, they'll keep putting Bush there as long as they think the Texans will take him, not because they know all about scouting.
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Old 01-12-2006   #14
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Vince operated in the shotgun, Alex Smith operated into the shotgun. My poit is it is very different being under center. Alex Smith had 1 great year, and became the #1 pick. Now he's thrown 1 TD and 11 picks or something.
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Old 01-12-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big B Texan Fan
Anyways, Those draft sites want hits on their sites, they'll keep putting Bush there as long as they think the Texans will take him, not because they know all about scouting.
Free daraft sites are useless, as are most pay sites. But writers, for legit media outlets, know there ****.

Guys like Gosslin, Kiper (as much as I hate to say it), the crew at Scouts, Inc and the guys at Ourlads know what they are talkin about; and they almost all have Reggie has the highest rated/graded player in the last several years; not just that they think he will go first but the highest, ie the best, ie the most cont miss, ie the most likely to be a star in several years.
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Old 01-12-2006   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoth-Boy
Free daraft sites are useless, as are most pay sites. But writers, for legit media outlets, know there ****.

Guys like Gosslin, Kiper (as much as I hate to say it), the crew at Scouts, Inc and the guys at Ourlads know what they are talkin about; and they almost all have Reggie has the highest rated/graded player in the last several years; not just that they think he will go first but the highest, ie the best, ie the most cont miss, ie the most likely to be a star in several years.
Explain to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bush is an NFL, #1 pick worthy, evry down back. Off of what you learned from the Gurus
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Old 01-12-2006   #17
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When sombody who knows more then anybody and everybody on this board, Rick Gosslin, says that he hasn't seen a back withe the acceleration, moves, speed, ability to effect a game; says teh he is the best prospect in a long *** time I believe him. Why shouldn't I, and why do you not? Gosslin is well know by draftniks as THE source of draft info and analysis.

As for what I've seen personally, dude watch Reggie and don't tell me he isn;t . He can score from anywhere on the feild .
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Old 01-12-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoth-Boy
When sombody who knows more then anybody and everybody on this board, Rick Gosslin, says that he hasn't seen a back withe the acceleration, moves, speed, ability to effect a game; says teh he is the best prospect in a long *** time I believe him. Why shouldn't I, and why do you not? Gosslin is well know by draftniks as THE source of draft info and analysis.

As for what I've seen personally, dude watch Reggie and don't tell me he isn;t . He can score from anywhere on the feild .
Good Points
Gosslin has been wrong before, many times.
Look at the translation to the nfl, it seems as though as it doens't compute.
Undersized fast scatback PR KR types can be found all through the draft.
He's not an everydown guy, will never be
You can use rookies on 3rd down and on returns to get them on the field to see what they can do as rookies but you do not draft a guy with the #1 to be that kind of guys his whole career.
Bush is great, not #1 overall great
Besides, noone should get their hopes up because Kubiak and the Broncos have passed on many RB's in the 1st rd because they don't believe in drafting a RB in the 1st. If Kubiak is our coach (which all indications point that happening) that more than likely won't change when he comes here.

Riddle me this.
Bush to DD is an upgrade, a substantial one. But DD's body of work in the NFL is pretty good.
Young to Carr is an upgrade, a substantial one. Carrs' body of work in the NFL is not very good at all.
Hmmmm
Why replace with this particular pick the better of the 2. The more productive of the 2. The one you gave a contract extension to less than a year ago. I just don't see it happening.
Not to mention we got Morency and Wells. Kubiak and his version of the zone blocking scheme can work wonders with those guys. Bush is better than all those guys though. But why bring in another good/great back.
We've got no QB's worth a crap. Hold the line on all the O-Line junk. They run block well becuase they respect DD, and can't pass block very goodto beginwith but don't give it much more effort because the respect factor is minimal. I can't say who but one of my close friends is an old HS buddy of one of the starters on our line and it's no secret in the locker room that they do not like him very much.

I've typed long enough. Please reply
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Old 01-12-2006   #19
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Vince is NOT as good as Carr right now, sorry. David has three years of pro expeirence versus Vince's none. On that alone Carr is a better pro QB currently then VY. Also there are still several NFL talent evaluators who think Carr can still be a good to great NFL QB; once agan why do you doubt the opinion of guys who are paid to make these calls, and therefore on average are usually right?

Yes, Gossilin has been wrong, but a) not ofter and b) when he says somebody is a slam dunk he is usually right. Bush was third in the nation in rushing, and the guys infront of him had each has an extra 100 carries (Bush's 200 to 308 and 309). Also Gossilin just said that he thinks that Bush will be teh ROY next year, and that when he talks to NFL talent guys and brings up the name Bush he gets comparisions to OJ, Sayers and that like, he has those kind of traits and abilities. Bush is a special knid of player, not the average player he is being made out to be here.

Reggie is 6'0" and 200 pounds. He is likely to add some weight in the next couple of years. Davis is 5'9" 216 pounds, but you don't think he is undersized? Bush is faster then DD, bigger then DD, more elusive then DD, a better reciever then DD, and behind this suspect line would probaly be a bigger threat to the opposing D then DD.

As for Kubiak, how do you know what he will do in the draft? He (Kubiak) could think that Reggie is the best back since Sanders and that Carr is better then VY and that DD is one more injury away from being done.

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Old 01-12-2006   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthawk
I know it's presumptuous. Forgive me.

Here's the deal. Young is too big a potential star to pass up. Plain and simple, that's what it comes to. He might be a bust, though the odds are pretty much against it, and he might not be the best QB in NFL history.

On the other hand, he MIGHT BE the best QB in NFL history. Who else can you say that about? Nobody. So the Texans have to take him at number 1.

The next problem is Carr. After much reflection and against my own wishes, I think the Texans will figure some way to keep Carr for the next year or two. I figure Young will grow very fast and take over the team some time late nest year or in 2007. At that point, if Carr has improved he can either stay and back up Young, or, if he's vaulable trade material, get the trade people are talking about this year.

Young is a once-in-a-lifetime prospect, and that's the kind of thing you can't ignore. Lienart will be a good NFL QB, but his upside isn't even close to Young's. That's why you didn't hear anybody screaming about taking Lienart over Bush.

So it comes to keeping Carr and taking Bush, and working some financial wizardry to make it work. Were it me I'd trade Carr for picks now, use Banks next year while Vice gets a handle on things, or make a low level trade for a journeyman vet for next year.

I do not think that's what McNair will do. The safe bet, from his point of view, is keep Carr until we're 100% sure Vince is going to be a superstar.
Did you watch Banks against San Francisco? How many interceptions did he put up in a half against the 9ers? I'd rather have Pendry and Carr nickel and diming it down the field than to watch that turnover factory in progress.

It is ridiculously presumptous to say that VY might be the best QB in NFL history. I know: that wasn't the thrust of your argument, you are just arguing that he will probably good. But the best ever? Hell, for that matter, I might be.

Could we stick to calling it like it is, which is to say he has the chance to be a great NFL QB?
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