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Old 01-10-2006   #1
ReggieBushFan
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Question Why does everyone think we should draft Vince Young?

lets get something straight before I go into to what I'm about to say

I love Vince Young and I couldn't be more proud of the way he led my Horns to the Championship this year, but just because I love the Horns and I love Vince as a college player doesn't mean the Texans should draft him.

I love Vince Young, but now that the college season is over, my allegiance goes back to the Texans and Reggie Bush will be a much better NFL player and pick for the Texans than Vince would

-Vince has mediocre arm strength
-he can't read a defense
-he can't audible plays at the line of scrimmage
-he doesn't even take a snap under center
-he averaged 3.7 yards a carry against OHIO ST., 1.9 yards a carry against A&M, and -.7 yards a carry against Kansas this season, those were the only 3 college teams he faced with decent linebackers and he struggled mightily, he will not be able to do what he did to a bad USC defense in the NFL, he couldn't even do it against the better defenses in college


at best Vince will be a 3 or 4 year project in the NFL, there is way too much he has to learn to play the quarterback position at the next level whereas Reggie will make an immediate impact


Reggie Bush isn't a gamble, he is a guarantee, the guy has great hands, great breakaway speed, the ability to cut like no other, a brilliant football mind and he has been ranked my many NFL scouts as the greateast college player that they have ever rated since they have been scouting

just because Vince is from our city and we love what he did for our Longhorns doesn't mean we should draft him, especially to pass up what will be a tremendous player by his 2nd year in the NFL (Reggie Bush)


last week during the championship game I didn't like Bush because I was obviously routing for the Horns, but now that all changes, we have the oppurtunity to draft quite possibly the greatest college player ever


all this Vince Young hype based off a performance against a bad defense is ludicrous, lets be realistic about the situation and take the best player available A.K.A REGGIE BUSH
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Old 01-10-2006   #2
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There are dozens of other posts on this. But I pulled these form my favorite:

When Vince Young does a push up, he isn't lifting himself up, he's pushing the earth down.

Vince Young is the first man to ever defeat a brick wall in a game of tennis.

In fine print at the end of the Guinness Book of World Record it states that Vince Young actually holds every world record, and those previously listed are just the closest anyone has ever gotten.

Superman owns a pair of Vince Young pajamas.

Vince Young can set ants on fire with a magnifying glass. At night.

Vince Young has counted to infinity. Twice. (my favorite)

He can't get sick because he is immune to everything, especially a pass rush.

Vince Young was once involved in a head-on car crash, and he was the only survivor. Vince Young was walking at the time.

Vince has learned 23 different languages just by listening to the last words of his victims.

Vince Young can beat aquaman in the 400m butterfly.

Vince Young is the only person in history to break out from wonder womans magic lasso.

Vince Young put sugar in speed racers gas tank.

Hellen Kellers favorite color is Vince Young.

Vince Young is actually left handed, but he is so powerful, if he threw with his good arm he would burn holes through his recievers. So he throws with his weak arm, at only 30 percent strength.

Vince Youngs tears can cure cancer....to bad he's never cried.

Vince Young did indeed build Rome in a day.

In ancient aramaic, Vince Young actually mean "saves bad coaches."

Jesus walked on water. Moses split the Red Sea. Vince Young did both before he came out of the womb, then he roundhoused Jesus and Moses.

When Vince Young picks up a football, the U.S. Terror Alert Level is raised to gold.

When 72 virgins die and go to heaven, they are rewarded with Vince Young.

Vince Young created Himself in the image of Himself.

VY sold his soul to the devil for his rugged good looks and unparalleled football skills. Shortly after the transaction was finalized, Vince juked the devil out of his horns and took his soul back. The devil, who appreciates irony, couldn't stay mad and admitted he should have seen it coming. They now play poker every second Wednesday of the month.

When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for VY.

VY can touch MC Hammer.

A Handicap parking sign does not signify that this spot is for handicapped people. It is actually in fact a warning, that the spot belongs to VY and that you will be handicapped if you park there.

The sun doesn't actually rise or set. VY simply claps twice.

Achilles was supposedly the greatest warrior of all time, but he died because of his weak spot, the Achilles tendon. There is no VY tendon. You do the math.
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Old 01-10-2006   #3
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Thats awsome. I nearly died laughing.
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Old 01-10-2006   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieBushFan
all this Vince Young hype based off a performance against a bad defense is ludicrous, lets be realistic about the situation and take the best player available A.K.A REGGIE BUSH
And you don't think all the hype around Bush centered around his game against Fresno State?

-Vince has mediocre arm strength - Wrong
-he can't read a defense - Wrong
-he can't audible plays at the line of scrimmage - Wrong
-he doesn't even take a snap under center - Wrong

Wow, at least you're consistent.

-he averaged 3.7 yards a carry against OHIO ST., 1.9 yards a carry against A&M, and -.7 yards a carry against Kansas this season, those were the only 3 college teams he faced with decent linebackers and he struggled mightily

Vs A&M - 13 of 24, 162 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT
Vs OSU - 18 of 29, 270 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs
Vs KU - 19 of 27, 281 yards, 4 TDs, 0 INTs (KU was ranked 11th in total defense...Young was taken out of this game before the 4th quarter)

Funny that you would point out his worst rushing performances when everybody complains about how he can't pass the ball.

he will not be able to do what he did to a bad USC defense in the NFL, he couldn't even do it against the better defenses in college

But I'm sure Reggie will have no problems carrying over that 8.7 YPC once he gets into the league. Oh wait...

Only 6.4 per against Washington's defense (94th in total defense)?
Only 5.7 per against Wazzu's defense (106th in total defense)?
Only 4.8 per against Cal's defense (46th in total defense)?

I'm not surprised you left out Vince's performances against:

Oklahoma (13th in total defense) - 14 of 27, 241 yards, 3 TDs, 0 INT
Texas Tech (30th in total defense) - 12 of 22, 239 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs
Colorado (41st in total defense) - 39 of 46, 529 yards, 5 TDs, 1 INT (2 games)

Against Ohio State (5th in total defense), he "only" accounted for 376 yards of total offense. And unlike Bush, none of those were return yards.

Nah, not surprised at all why you'd leave those games out. Probably because it'd blow that theory about Vince only having one good game this season out of the water. But that's just a hunch.

Your theory <---

USC's defense ranked 48th in total defense. Not very good for a defending MNC riding a 34 game winning streak. But it's a helluvalot better than the patsies Bush was facing week in and out. And yeah, Young was able to torch USC as well.

Who's going to lob the next softball?
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Old 01-10-2006   #5
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the first 4 points I made where you said "wrong"


I would like you to please explain to me how I'm wrong on any of those points, have you watched the Longhorns play this year? Vince never takes a snap under center, he has never audibled a play at the line of scrimmage, he has said himself that he has trouble reading defenses and you don't have to be a genious to figure out he has mediocre arm strength, just ask any NFL scout in the country, better yet, go read some scouting reports, they all say the same thing

like I said, I love and appreciate Vince and what he has done at Texas, but drafting him to our NFL team is another story
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Old 01-10-2006   #6
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Vince from under center.

Vince from under center.

Vince from under center.

Do you really want me to go on? Because there are a ton more where those came from.

I took your advice and asked an NFL scout about Vince's arm. This is what he had to say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Clark
"Vince is a tremendous athlete and a great competitor. He surprised me on just how accurate he is throwing the ball over the middle. To be honest he is a more accurate passer than Daunte Culpepper, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb or Mike Vick were when they came out of college and those are the quarterbacks most people compare him to. He’s a very smart football player also. You saw that he made the hot reads when they tried to blitz him, and he dumped the ball off correctly to the back or the tight end. Vince is a very strong guy and he has the arm strength to make all the throws downfield. (USC coach) Pete Carroll threw every defense in the world at him, and he made good on almost every throw. You could clearly see that he grew in stature as a passer all season long. You don’t lead the NCAA in passing efficiency by not being a good passer and having good touch. The thing that jumps out at you is that he is not rifling the ball like a bullet on the shorter throws, but instead he is putting good touch and a tight spiral on those throws. When he needs to put some real steam on the ball he can do that also."
Joe Clark, who coached in the NFL, NFL Europe and the college ranks for over 40 years, and has tutored the likes of Kurt Warner, Jake Delhomme, Don Majkowski, Jim Miller and Jay Fiedler, gives us his take on the two top quarterbacks in college football.

Hopefully that answers your questions about his arm strength and ability to read defenses.

BTW, if the clips don't work, try right clicking and saving or opening in a new window.
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Old 01-10-2006   #7
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maybe we learn something new everyday? that is the first scout of any sort that I've heard complimenting his ability to throw

as far has him being under center, I'm sure you realized what I meant, the vast majority of the Texas offense is run from the shotgun, after all, I have attended every game the last 2 seasons


the reason Mack and Co. had to let Vince run loose is because his in-ability to read defenses, I'm not saying he can't learn to do these things better in the future, but he isn't even close to being NFL ready, it would take him at least two seasons before he could even play with any effectiveness at the next level, Reggie is ready now and that is my whole point


thank you for the information regarding Mr. Joe Clark, that does make me feel a little better about Vince's chances in the future, he is such a good guy, I certainly hope he suceeds in every way, that doesn't necessarily mean I think we should draft him over Reggie Bush though, I think Bush is an instant offensive producer
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Old 01-10-2006   #8
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There are many college programs that run mainly out of the shotgun formation. Byron leftwich went through the same criticisms
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Old 01-10-2006   #9
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please keep in mind HUGE, that I'm a die-hard Longhorn fan and I really like Vince Young, I'm not trying to take away from anything that he has done at Texas, but my interests now are making the Houston Texans a better football team and I think Reggie Bush will do that
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Old 01-10-2006   #10
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Default More than about a QB

I have to say, I am a hardcore Dallas Cowboys fan - have been for as long as I have memory. So, why am I posting on a Houston Texan's website? I'll answer that later.....

There is no question that Vince Young will play in the the NFL for a long time to come and, though he will NOT have the same rushing success as a runner, his mobility WILL make him an elite NFL QB because, defenses are faster these days and his legs will buy him time in the pocket. He has been a pass first QB all season with the exception of designed runs.

So again, as a Cowboys Fan, what is my interest in Vince Young going to the Texans?

It is more than just about a QB, honestly. If Carr was such a great QB, wouldn't the Texan's be doing better by this point? This is about Texas Football.....

Vince Young is Texas Legend now. I wasn't even a Vince Young fan going into this season. I was one of those people who thought he should be moved to WR this season. I've watched every one of the Texas games since VY came on the scene because I'm from Austin. I've seen the kid grow by leaps and bounds since he showed up in Austin.

This is about fan base now. Vince Young is a Texas legend now, no matter where he goes, I'll watch him. This is about Texas football. When the Texans are on now, I change the channel, win or lose. If Reggie Bush comes to the Texans, I still won't watch the Texans. I don't buy that he is some savior. His amazing runs came vs average teams. Sure he is good. He will make some runs. I don't buy that he is insanely better than Davis.

Now, if Vince Young comes to the Texans AND the Cowboys are on at the same time, guess who I am going to watch? Thats right, I'll be watching Texan Football. Seriously, who wants to watch Drew Bledsoe stumble around for another season? I'd much rather watch VY grow into being an elite passer and bring another Superbowl home to Texas.

Ideal situation:

Texans take VY with the #1 pick. Trade Carr for the #4 pick, take the elite tackle with the #4 Pick and Kubiak comes to Texas to develope VY.

I'd be a die hard Texan's fan and would watch would great interest. O I'd still love the Cowboys but would be MUCH more interested in The Texans.
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Old 01-10-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieBushFan
the reason Mack and Co. had to let Vince run loose is because his in-ability to read defenses, I'm not saying he can't learn to do these things better in the future, but he isn't even close to being NFL ready, it would take him at least two seasons before he could even play with any effectiveness at the next level, Reggie is ready now and that is my whole point
They changed the offense to take advantage of Young's abilities. Not to disquise his inabilities.

Pete Carroll was one of the better defensive coordinators in the NFL. That's an NFL defense they run at USC (they just don't have the NFL talent running it). Did Vince appear to have any trouble reading that defense?

And no kidding he's not ready for the NFL. Do you know which college QB is? None of them. Peyton Manning could've spent 7 years at Tennessee and he still wouldn't have been ready for the NFL. Know why? Because it's not the NFL.

I realize Vince has run the majority of his snaps from the shotgun. It's been addressed in another thread. Byron Leftwich and Ben Roethlisberger are two other QBs that ran the shotgun in college. Many consider them to be two up and coming star QBs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieBushFan
please keep in mind HUGE, that I'm a die-hard Longhorn fan and I really like Vince Young, I'm not trying to take away from anything that he has done at Texas, but my interests now are making the Houston Texans a better football team and I think Reggie Bush will do that
I'm not against the Texans taking Bush. If they did so, I think it'd be a very smart decision.

But if a comment is made about Vince (or any other player) and I disagree with it, then I'll post my opposing opinion and I'll usually back it up with stats, quotes or (in this case) visual evidence.
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Old 01-10-2006   #12
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good enough Huge, we have to agree to disagree, I guess we can't all think alike, thanks for the reply
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Old 01-10-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieBushFan
I guess we can't all think alike
Then we'd be Aggies!
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Old 01-10-2006   #14
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From the scouting reports that have been posted on this board, Matt Leinart is considered to have "marginal arm strength" as well.

If a defense tries to stop Vince from running, he'll just starts beating them through the air. If he makes a bad play, he doesn't hang his head. He steps up his game and makes up for whatever was lost.

No one at the top of this draft has perfect fundamentals. They are all unique, and they all have their standard scouting strengths and weaknesses.

Vince has an edge, in my opinion, because he is a WINNER. In every sense of the word. And that is a very attractive quality in a prospect when I've been watching a team of losers all year - maybe longer than that. I think that instead of hearing comments like "this team needs a leader", we'd soon be hearing comments like those of Young's teammates on the sidelines after the Rose Bowl. It's amazing how much loyalty he inspired in his teammates and in his coach. It's amazing how willing they were to follow his lead.

On the business side, I think it allows the Texans franchise to finally break into the Austin and San Antonio markets, which have been really tough to crack over the past 4 years.
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Old 01-10-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieBushFan
the reason Mack and Co. had to let Vince run loose is because his in-ability to read defenses
The reason Mack and Greg let Vince loose is because he convinced them that they were choking the offense. He asked for more responsibility. Their playing-not-to-lose philosophy was what kept the Longhorns from making the leap from good to great, and mid-season last year, they made the change. And it worked.

Vince can read defenses. Like Mel Kiper said, it's almost instantaneous.
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Old 01-10-2006   #16
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While reading about the upcoming draft, I came across this tidbit from Bill Walsh, former coach of the SF 49ers (for those too young to remember - he coached Joe Montana and brought the West Coast offense to the NFL, and is by far more qualified to evaluate talent than anyone on this board). This is from the LATIMES:

Former 49er coach Bill Walsh, one of pro football's best talent evaluators, believes that Leinart is the best quarterback prospect in the draft, and that Bush's stock might have dropped a bit after the Rose Bowl because "he didn't dominate."

Walsh said Young "performed brilliantly" in the Rose Bowl, but the former coach said he isn't sure whether Young's scrambling style would work over the long haul in the pros.

"A lot of the running Young did in the Rose Bowl, he wouldn't have been able to get away with in the NFL," Walsh said. "Everybody's a step or two or three faster, especially the linebackers. The punishment he would take in the NFL would start to slow him down.

"It's a Michael Vick kind of thing," Walsh said, referring to the Atlanta quarterback whom the Falcons are shaping into more of a traditional pocket passer. "It looks good early on, but it's less and less a factor every game he plays."

I guess that's Walsh's
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Old 01-10-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulip
Vince has an edge, in my opinion, because he is a WINNER. In every sense of the word. And that is a very attractive quality in a prospect when I've been watching a team of losers all
I really don't know what the texans should do anymore I've given up on it and I'm mentally burned out, I just want one thing and thats not to see VY in a Titans jersey next year. Having said that I'm still trying to stay impartial about the whole situation and with you saying Vince has an edge becuase he is a winner, does that imply that Matt L. and Reggie Bush aren't. All three of these guys are winners
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Old 01-10-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulip
Vince has an edge, in my opinion, because he is a WINNER. In every sense of the word. And that is a very attractive quality in a prospect when I've been watching a team of losers all year - maybe longer than that.
So does Leinart and Bush's 37-2 records as collegiate players mean that they aren't winners?
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Old 01-10-2006   #19
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Well, Vince is THE winner for Texas. Leinart and Bush have to share the credit with each other.
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Old 01-10-2006   #20
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Well, Vince is THE winner for Texas. Leinart and Bush have to share the credit with each other.
So if LenDale could run 3 yards does that mean Vince is less of a winner?
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