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Old 01-10-2006   #1
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Default If we were to "rebuild" with Vince why does the cap hit matter for trading Carr?

Here's a point I don't think I'm following all the way in this debate. If we were to move in the direction of signing Carr and trading him, is my understanding correct that we would just take a big 6-7 million dollar cap hit next season (depending if we do the 2 or 3 year extension). Here's the thing. I think even the most die hard Vince backers realize we aren't competing for a playoff spot with him QB'ng in the first two years at least, so why exactly would it be such a big deal to take a cap hit on Carr's contract if we can trade him for a pick or another player? Would it just mean we wouldn't be able to go out and make as big of free agent signings? Or maybe have to cut some higher paid veteran players? Personally I don't see why either one of these should raise too much concern if we are admittedly rebuilding in a way that we think can help the team make the playoffs possibly 3 or 4 years from now. I'm just not up on the salary cap that much and any input would be great. Would trading Carr somehow hamper us capwise further down the road than say 2 years? Or would it make it so bad on us in the near term that we would have to let go of some young core talent that we wouldn't otherwise have to. Those are really my only concerns if we were to move in that direction. Thanks for any responses.
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Old 01-10-2006   #2
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The cap hit (I believe) is a one time deal etween 5 and 8 mill .... depending on the length of the extenxion (2or 3 years) .... If they give Carr the extension and keep him they pay him 5-8 mil vs the cap split over the duration of the contract . If they give him the extension and trade him that take the full bonus as a direct hit on the cap .... I really dont see this as a roadblock in trading Carr (If that were the case) ...

This team can not fool itself or its fans into thinking they are contenders after the season they just gave us . It IS rebuilding. They have so many holes it will take at least 2-3 years to fill them , FA's dont want to come to a 2-14 team ....

Taking Bush #1 may make this team slightly better Immediately . Taking Young will make it better in the long haul . The only question's here are .... how long is management willing to wait for the dividends to show .... and are they willing to gamble on a QB #1 again (who wouldnt play for at least a season) with this cracker jack O-line.

Simply put the cap hit is a formality ... an Excuse .
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Old 01-10-2006   #3
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O-lines, cracker jack or otherwise, take at least a good year or two to develop. If the Texans draft Young and a lineman or two, it could be that the Texans are looking to hit their stride about three years down the road when we will have a much more talented group on both sides of the ball.

However, we are taking a step back (experience-wise) to gamble on three years into the future. That's a lot of risk to not much investment. Taking Bush and picking up three others puts more stake into next year, as RBs can be productive in their first year (Caddilac and Brown, for example).
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Old 01-10-2006   #4
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I still don't see it as a step backwards. We'll still have Carr. Vince will sit. The pick won't help us next year, but I honestly don't think picking Bush will either. The Best thing to do for this team, is to trade down, get some players, and a first round pick this year and next, or two a first and two seconds, or something. Fix the O-Line, and our Defense.

But I can't pass on Young....... I think he's that good. I'd have passed on Vick, and McNabb, but not on Young.

The Smart move is to trade down. But if we're going to use the pick, and we're not going to address needs, take Young. Especially if we get Kubiak.... plug in RB here...
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Old 01-10-2006   #5
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Sign and then Trade David Carr will be a huge cap hit, but also this years cap is going up around 90 million because of the new NFL TV Contract. It might be more, but I am not saying we should trade David Carr. I think we can still use him and make him a very good QB.
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Old 01-10-2006   #6
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Here's couple of theams that made the playoffs without big contibutions from their round 1 pick in the last draft-
Bears - Ced Benson
Giants - didn't have one
Broncos - didn't have one
Redskins - I don't think their 1st rd CB was not a starter but even if so he got hurt. Their other 1st rd'r didn't even get a start
Colts - Marlin Jackson, not a starter

There's more out ther but you get my drift. We don't have to have an immediate impact from our 1st pick.

I know, Cadillac Williams practically put the Bucs in the playoffs.
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Old 01-10-2006   #7
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Thanks guys, that's what I thought the situation was. It sounds like with the cap raising anyways the cap hit from a Carr trade would simply mean we wouldn't add a veteran free agent THIS coming season possibly. WHO CARES if we aren't making our push this coming season? A year from now we will have that cap room back and can then use it to build a serious contender. It looks like a non issue to me if we are going with Vince.
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Old 01-10-2006   #8
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Coaching alone makes a big difference. We may seem to be a pathetic team, but you don't know how good we actually are. We lost 4 or 5 games on the last play of the game. We finished at 2-14, but we could have easily been 6-10 or 7-9. I know a lot of you are saying that we can't be much better next year, but the Dolphins went from 4-12 last year to 9-7 this year. I believe the Chargers went from 4-12 two years ago to 12-4 last year. If we let Carr go and draft Vince, we aren't going to be a much better team because rookies rarely are successful from the very beginning. Especially a raw talent like Vince Young.
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Old 01-10-2006   #9
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The Texans aren't making the playoffs next year no matter who takes the snaps.
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Old 01-10-2006   #10
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I really doubt any businessman would want to throw away 5-8 million dollars for any reason. The only reason you'd resign Carr and take that cap hit is to play him. If you trade him, you might get a 3rd round pick for him. So, at that point, you're basically paying 5-8 mill (whatever the figure is) for a 3rd round pick - plus whatever the player costs you. That is so totally not worth it. Throughout the latter part of the season and so far during this offseason, McNair has been talking to football experts about David Carr, in order to make an informed decision. I applaud him for that. I realize many of us on this board want Vince Young or Reggie Bush, but we're not in that group of "experts" (and thank God!). If the Texans keep Carr, it will be because they intend to play him and they've received plenty of expert evaluation saying to do so. While I am obviously not in the circle of experts either, I'd be willing to place a bet that most of the experts are saying that no QB would have done anymore than Carr given the same set of circumstances to this point.

Just a guess, though.
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Old 01-10-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulexan
Coaching alone makes a big difference. We may seem to be a pathetic team, but you don't know how good we actually are. We lost 4 or 5 games on the last play of the game. We finished at 2-14, but we could have easily been 6-10 or 7-9. I know a lot of you are saying that we can't be much better next year, but the Dolphins went from 4-12 last year to 9-7 this year. I believe the Chargers went from 4-12 two years ago to 12-4 last year. If we let Carr go and draft Vince, we aren't going to be a much better team because rookies rarely are successful from the very beginning. Especially a raw talent like Vince Young.

But we're not talking about letting Carr go....... at least I'm not. Let's put Carr in with a New Coach, a new system. See how he does. IF we are below 500 at midseason, Vince get's the start.
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Old 01-10-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulexan
Coaching alone makes a big difference. We may seem to be a pathetic team, but you don't know how good we actually are. We lost 4 or 5 games on the last play of the game. We finished at 2-14, but we could have easily been 6-10 or 7-9. I know a lot of you are saying that we can't be much better next year, but the Dolphins went from 4-12 last year to 9-7 this year. I believe the Chargers went from 4-12 two years ago to 12-4 last year. If we let Carr go and draft Vince, we aren't going to be a much better team because rookies rarely are successful from the very beginning. Especially a raw talent like Vince Young.
Kudos to you! You have echoed my thoughts exactly. We were 7-9 two years ago. We were expected to compete for the playoffs this year. With the right coach (Kubiak), we can easily be 7-9 to 9-7 next year. We could have easily been 7-9 this year, if we didn't play NOT to lose.
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Old 01-10-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss
But we're not talking about letting Carr go....... at least I'm not. Let's put Carr in with a New Coach, a new system. See how he does. IF we are below 500 at midseason, Vince get's the start.
They aren't going to have Carr and Young on the team at the same time. That is way too much money tied into one position, especially when one of them won't be playing.

There are two options:

Keep Carr and draft Bush or trade down

Get rid of Carr and draft Young.


We aren't going to extend Carr and then trade him because we will have to take a $5-8 million cap hit. We also aren't going to extend Carr and have Vince sit behind him until Carr's contract is over.
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Old 01-10-2006   #14
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Quote:
I really doubt any businessman would want to throw away 5-8 million dollars for any reason. The only reason you'd resign Carr and take that cap hit is to play him.
That's really the jest of it as far as I can see. I know yall hate this point but it applies here.. 1-You will easily make that 5 million (2 year deal) up in Vince jerseys, concessions etc.. Fire away, but that point is almost certainly correct. 2-If you are making the trade to improve the team you have to view the cap hit as a means to that end. Just the same as if we were to sign a 5 million dollar linebacker next year with Carr still at QB. Your still shelling out the same money for the team, you goal is just further down the road.

Now the happy medium seems to be keep Carr one year and try to build him up for more trade value and ?less of cap hit? after one season I'd guess.
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Old 01-10-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-3
That's really the jest of it as far as I can see. I know yall hate this point but it applies here.. 1-You will easily make that 5 million (2 year deal) up in Vince jerseys, concessions etc.. Fire away, but that point is almost certainly correct. 2-If you are making the trade to improve the team you have to view the cap hit as a means to that end. Just the same as if we were to sign a 5 million dollar linebacker next year with Carr still at QB. Your still shelling out the same money for the team, you goal is just further down the road.

Now the happy medium seems to be keep Carr one year and try to build him up for more trade value and ?less of cap hit? after one season I'd guess.

It's not just losing $5-8 million dollars. That is $5-8 million on the salary cap which means you have less money to spend on players.

The NFL is not like the NBA or MLB. You can't go over the cap. There is no leeway. It's not that you go over and pay a luxury tax, you are not allowed to go over and if you do, you face severe penalties.
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Old 01-10-2006   #16
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Big Deal to sign Carr and trade him. They won't go over the cap.
Most of the payers on the roster should earn about

So we should not have any cap issues. We'll have $$ left to blow! LOL

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Old 01-10-2006   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oso
O-lines, cracker jack or otherwise, take at least a good year or two to develop. If the Texans draft Young and a lineman or two, it could be that the Texans are looking to hit their stride about three years down the road when we will have a much more talented group on both sides of the ball.

However, we are taking a step back (experience-wise) to gamble on three years into the future. That's a lot of risk to not much investment. Taking Bush and picking up three others puts more stake into next year, as RBs can be productive in their first year (Caddilac and Brown, for example).
We already have a productive RB. Burning a #1 overall on a RB when you already have a good one gets you nowhere except another 2-14 season.
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Old 01-10-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephyr
Kudos to you! You have echoed my thoughts exactly. We were 7-9 two years ago. We were expected to compete for the playoffs this year. With the right coach (Kubiak), we can easily be 7-9 to 9-7 next year. We could have easily been 7-9 this year, if we didn't play NOT to lose.
Um, we were 7-9 with Capers. So if your goal is 7-9, why did they fire him in the first place?
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Old 01-10-2006   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulexan
There are two options:

Keep Carr and draft Bush or trade down

Get rid of Carr and draft Young.
Then there is the smart option -- keep Carr and trade the pick to get help at positions where the Texans are really hurting.
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Old 01-10-2006   #20
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Quote:
It's not just losing $5-8 million dollars. That is $5-8 million on the salary cap which means you have less money to spend on players.
Read my original post. It only means we can't spend on players for NEXT season, which we will be starting with a new QB if we make a trade. That hardly matters at all really. In year 2 we will have the cap room back and can get our players then. Cap room just isn't a huge issue when you are in "mini-rebuilding mode" year 1.
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