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Old 01-09-2006   #1
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Default Young vs. Young

If I could be so presumptuous as to attempt to limit the scope of this thread, I ask that it not be turned into:

1. A David Carr thread
2. A Vince Young is the only smart pick thread
3. A Vince Young is a stupid pick thread

I think these topics are addressed elsewhere.



Consider the spectrum of running quarterbacks. On one end we have a great passing, good running QB (i.e. Steve Young); at the other end we have a great running, good passing QB (i.e. Vince Young may be evaluated as such after his career is over).

I have a two-part question for anyone who is interested. First, in general which type of QB is more valuable to the average NFL team? Second, which type is more valuable to the Texans at this time?

I challenge the board to some serious discussion!
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Old 01-09-2006   #2
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Well good question , I for one know Steve Young was the better QB or Great passer good runner , so I would have to say the great passer and good runner , we know Carr is a good runner and has shown at times to be a great passer when he has time . Hope that helps or answers the question
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Old 01-09-2006   #3
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Part I:

Passing ability will always be the number one quality in the NFL by a long shot. Having a mobile QB can be a plus as long as they look to pass first and get the ball into the hands of their playmakers. Mobile QBs scramble to buy time or pick up the 1st or TD when the opportunity presents itself. Basically it's a bonus but not key in any way.

A Running QB is a different animal...they trust their feet more than their arm and when pressured or rattled they will look to run ASAP. Most of the time this is a product of them being incredible athletes and they haven't developed their passing skills to an acceptable level for the NFL because they could always "out athlete" their competiton.

Part II:
We need a throw first QB. Period. My opinion is that VY is a Running QB right now, not a Mobile QB as defined in Part I. He will need to learn to adapt his game and I think he does have the potential to be very special in the league but make no mistake he will have some serious growing pains as he makes these adjustments.
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Old 01-09-2006   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Man
I think he does have the potential to be very special in the league but make no mistake he will have some serious growing pains as he makes these adjustments.

What QB doesnt have growing pains ..... Ask David Carr about his .... 208 lessons over his 4 years in the NFL . Those are just the classes he got credit for not the multitude of extra credit hits ....errrr Lessons opposing defenses gave him)

On a more seroius note ... I agree Young will have to make a lot of adjustments to the NFL but has huge potential ... Ug the P word. He would be best served by being drafted by a team that can afford to sit him behind a veteran QB for a year or two ..... Could that team be the Texans ?
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Old 01-09-2006   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Man
My opinion is that VY is a Running QB right now, not a Mobile QB as defined in Part I.
He never runs first unless it's designed in the play. If you paid close attention on VY's runs in the Rose Bowl where the play wasnt designed, you'd see that he looked at all his reads before taking off. He only takes off when he is in trouble or the play is called for him to do so.
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Old 01-09-2006   #6
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I'd say a great passing and good running QB is more beneficial to an NFL team, and it would definately be more beneficial to the Texans. Afterall a QBs main job is to get the ball in the hands of his playmakers. Why not a pocket QB then? Simple with a good running QB you've got the ability to scramble for enough yards to pick up the first down when a defense is blankeitng his WRs on a particular play. It also buys the QB some time when he can escape the pressure allowing some of his WRs to get seperation from their man. I've always thought of Steve Young and John Elway as these types of QBs. Obviously they are among the best at their position.
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Old 01-09-2006   #7
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While "running" QBs make great highlights, the traditional dropback passer QB will always reign in the NFL (just look at the simple stat of how many are in the playoffs).

One of the big issues is a simple matter of the physical body. A player can only take so many brutal hits before suffering injury. When a mobile player takes too many injuries, it's a given he loses the mobility that defined his greatness.

With a QB, they can fall back on their arms...if they developed them when they were young. Players like Elway, Young, Cunningham, etc., were always "scramblers" to me, because running was a last resort.

These newer QBs seem to have running as one of the first options (instead of the last). But the NFL has a way of equalizing everything, and no offensive scheme can ever stand the test of time undefeated. Defensive minds always find a way to counter it.

Forming a protective pocket with big linemen so your QB can throw it 50 yards downfield will ultimately prevail over trying to make your QB run that same 50 yards.

If V. Young is smart about it, which I think he will be, he'll develop that arm and use his running ability as another weapon in his arsenal (instead of the main weapon like other running QBs have in the past).
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Old 01-10-2006   #8
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I think the pass-first QB has been more valuable and will continue to be so - UNLESS - some offensive visionary (a la Bill Walsh) comes along and basically develops a style of offense that is predicated upon the mobile QB. The tables might turn a bit at that point.
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Old 01-10-2006   #9
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Originally Posted by eriadoc
I think the pass-first QB has been more valuable and will continue to be so - UNLESS - some offensive visionary (a la Bill Walsh) comes along and basically develops a style of offense that is predicated upon the mobile QB. The tables might turn a bit at that point.
Interesting concept. We need an evolution of the Pro game to take full advantage of the evolution of the running QB.

Some college offenses already seem to do this, but those offensive styles wouldn't translate well into the NFL.
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Old 01-10-2006   #10
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The game is too fast for mobile QB's. Unless you can a way to become faster running the ball than passing the ball, which means running at around 50 mph, it will always be a pass first game.
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Old 01-10-2006   #11
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When Young started the league with the Bucs, he was a good to great runner and above average to good passer. It wasn't until he got the tutelage of Bill Walsh that his game turned around.

Steve McNair and Norm Chow would be great for Young. Unfortunately that would be horrible for us Texans fans.
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Old 01-10-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOgre
When Young started the league with the Bucs, he was a good to great runner and above average to good passer. It wasn't until he got the tutelage of Bill Walsh that his game turned around.

Steve McNair and Norm Chow would be great for Young. Unfortunately that would be horrible for us Texans fans.
At the same time the Texans have turned a new leaf and are going to start intelligently improving their team, and once Denver is eliminated from the playoffs and Kubiak is signed, he will help David Carr improve to superstar status too. Remember, he was the QBs coach in San Francisco (with Shanahan as O-coordinator) towards the end of their reign when Steve Young was becoming a stud and replacing Joe Montana there.
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Old 01-10-2006   #13
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I beleive a passer is more important than a runner at the QB position. A runner if used to buy time and pick up the occasional tough yards is good, but more important then that is pocket pressence and knowing when to get rid of the ball. Manning and Marino will never be accused of being good runners but they are the best examples of the least sacked QBs. IMO, good pocket pressence and a quick release is more dangerous then a running QB.
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Old 01-10-2006   #14
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One thing to consider is that there has never been a "running" QB in the NFL quite like VY. He has speed, elusiveness, AND size. I for one think he can have more success when running than any other modern QB. It is part of his game, and I wouldn't take that away from him until the other NFL teams stop him from running successfuly.
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