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Old 01-07-2006   #1
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Default About Young's College success

Someone in one of these hundreds of Young threads said something about the kind of scheme or passing formation that UT uses, and how most of Young's completions come from that.. and that it would not translate to the NFL.

I was wondering if the person who explained that would mind doing so again? I tried looking for it but there is just too many posts/threads about Young, and I cant remember where I saw it.

Sorry to clutter the board with another thread about it, but it looked pretty important/damning.. and I wanted to shine some light on it and see if some other people with more football knowledge than myself might be able to explain it in more detail.
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Old 01-07-2006   #2
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I'm probably not the guy you're actually looking for but the issue you are refering to is the "Zone Read".

Zone Read is run exclusively from the shotgun and is predicated on reading the initial push of the farthest edge defender (normally the DE) on the side that the play is going. The best way I can think of describing it is the genesis of the basic triple option play. The system works very well with an athletic QB giving him the option to run or pass immediately.

At the college level you can excell if you have the right type of players...basically it lets you "out athlete" lesser talents. This system has a number of flaws when you translate it to the pro game, not the least of which is the propensity to get your QB turned into paste on a regular basis.

The concern with VY is that he will need major assistance in learning how to read the full defensive set, make adjustments, and run thru passing progressions. The zone read allows a QB to react on a simple single key...a non-starter at the pro level. If you look at the USC offense it IS a pro level offense; one of the reasons that Carson Palmer and now Matt Leinart will progress rapidly once drafted. If I had to guess I would say that Palmer and Leinart were probably the most "pro ready" QBs to come out in the draft maybe in the last 10 years for this reason (and their own outstanding levels of talent).
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Old 01-07-2006   #3
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Yes that is exactly what I was looking for thanks alot.

Now I just wonder if someone else who is a big young supporter, and knows about this kind of stuff, would like to counter that arguement.
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Old 01-07-2006   #4
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I'm not a Young fan but I can give you the argument that you can expect.

It doesn't matter. Vince Young is from Houston, TX and went to University of Texas. He won the National Championship this year and will go to several Pro Bowls plus win the Super Bowl every single year that he is in the league. He will finish his career with 60,000 yards passing plus 20,000 yards rushing.
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Old 01-07-2006   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
Yes that is exactly what I was looking for thanks alot.

Now I just wonder if someone else who is a big young supporter, and knows about this kind of stuff, would like to counter that arguement.

sure ill give it a shot.

Vince went from a run first qb 2 years ago to a pass first with some designed running plays to take advantage of his amazing running ability.

UT couldve ran a more spread offense this year, and they did at times. But a big reason they used zone read a lot was the running back situation. with benson gone, we had all young guys with little to no experience. little experience leads to bad decisions. So UT eliminated these by putting VY in charge of the read plays.


when VY has run designed passing plays, he has shown a good ability at reading defensive coverages and progressing through his reads. He has turned into a very efficient QB and cut his mistakes down greatly. The leap he made as a passer this year cant be emphasized enough.


and to j-man: im sorry but the ESPN hype machine got you, USC does NOT run a pro style offense. They run a simple WCO like most of the other teams in the PAC-10. The only thing that makes it mildly complex is their ability to use Bush so many ways, other than that, their offense is no different from oregon's or cal's. its just simple pac 10 football


and Carson Palmer did not progress rapidly, he didnt even play his first year, and his second year he was at the top of the league in interceptions in a run first offense.




let us not forget Vince went 30/40 with 0 turnovers against Pete Carrol's defense that led the nation in int's. It was said Carrol was a mastermind at confusing qb's with his gameplan, yet Vince had the best game of any player in a championship game ever.




I'm not even sure we should draft vince, but good god so many people are so uninformed about his playing skills. It seems like they all remember watching him against OU 3 years ago and that is his skill level, and there is no way he improved much since then.

Vince has had 3 sub-par games the past 2 years: oklahoma 2 years ago, mizzou 2 years ago, and A&M this year. thats it.

He's a QB that has gone 25/29 for 336 yards passing, and a QB that has rushed 21 times for 267 yards.




his yardage went from 1800 last year to 3000 this year. His td's-int's went from 12/11 last year to 26/10 this year. his yards per attempt jumped from 7.4 to 9.3 (so save the "all he throws is dump off passes" arguement, because he has a higher YPA than Leinart
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Old 01-07-2006   #6
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and FYI I want Bush, but thats no reason to go around trashing Young as some sub-par player who won't make it in the NFL.
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Old 01-07-2006   #7
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Cool.... well at least we have a better arguement going than "Young is from Houston".
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Old 01-07-2006   #8
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Quote:
(so save the "all he throws is dump off passes" arguement, because he has a higher YPA than Leinart
it's called YAC (or RAC) in some circles....look into it
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Old 01-07-2006   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradK10
it's called YAC (or RAC) in some circles....look into it

its called YARDS PER ATTEMPT


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Old 01-07-2006   #10
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Yes but a 1 yard pass that turns into a 50 yard touchdown is credited as a 50 yard play. So if he threw 1 ball that was a 5 yard pass that was an 80 yard touchdown his YPA would be 80
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Old 01-07-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
Someone in one of these hundreds of Young threads said something about the kind of scheme or passing formation that UT uses, and how most of Young's completions come from that.. and that it would not translate to the NFL.

I was wondering if the person who explained that would mind doing so again? I tried looking for it but there is just too many posts/threads about Young, and I cant remember where I saw it.

Sorry to clutter the board with another thread about it, but it looked pretty important/damning.. and I wanted to shine some light on it and see if some other people with more football knowledge than myself might be able to explain it in more detail.
Your looking for a reason Young won't be successful in the NFL. Don't waste your time.
#1 the people here won't listen.
#2 he is going to be successful in the NFL.
#3 you don't have to degrade him to support your argument of using our #1 pick in another way.
#4 The is no one right option. There are lots of ways to be successful with the #1 pick. Picking Bush, Picking Young or trading down could ALL lead our team to success.
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Old 01-07-2006   #12
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yeah buddy, i was countering your YPA arguement

thanks tulexan for spelling it out for our football challenged
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Old 01-07-2006   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulexan
Yes but a 1 yard pass that turns into a 50 yard touchdown is credited as a 50 yard play. So if he threw 1 ball that was a 5 yard pass that was an 80 yard touchdown his YPA would be 80

Vince's main target was a TE.... second was a 6'5 posession receiver....
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Old 01-07-2006   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBC_Justin
#4 The is no one right option. There are lots of ways to be successful with the #1 pick. Picking Bush, Picking Young or trading down could ALL lead our team to success.
GOD....the single most intelligent thing posted on this board since the night of January 4th
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Old 01-07-2006   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradK10
yeah buddy, i was countering your YPA arguement

thanks tulexan for spelling it out for our football challenged

show me where the UT receivers had a higher YAC than USC's.

David Thomas the TE was vince's main target. Dwayne Jarrett was leinarts.

who do you think has the higher yac?
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Old 01-07-2006   #16
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that depends....did thomas get the ball in open space or traffic? did jarrett catch the ball in the endzone?

we'd have to go back and look at a LOT of film to figure that out, and frankly i dont care nor do i have the time.
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Old 01-07-2006   #17
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So you are saying that his receivers never get any YAC? I know I have seen many times where he has thrown relatively short passes that turned into long touchdowns.
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Old 01-07-2006   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulexan
So you are saying that his receivers never get any YAC? I know I have seen many times where he has thrown relatively short passes that turned into long touchdowns.

never? no of course not.

But the jackass over here pointed out YAC as an arguement to refute my statement that all of vinces passes were just dumpoffs.

I showed UT's top 2 receivers were a TE and a 6'5 posession receiver, so obviously YAC hasnt skewed his stats.

think of all the YAC Bush got for Leinart
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Old 01-07-2006   #19
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and might wanna think about changing your sig if you're such a Vince worshipper
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Old 01-07-2006   #20
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I would think the surest bet for a college QB to translate to a pro QB would players like Brady Quinn who plays for a guy like Charlie Weiss .
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