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Old 01-05-2006   #1
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Default What to do, what to do

OK!.. this game was great for us for 2 big reasons. (or possibly 2 anyway)

1) Reggie Bush is no longer considered to be Jesus with more athletic ability. If we were to NOT take Bush now.. it would not lead to us being badly flamed by the media.

2) Here is the possible second reason. If Vince Young comes out.. we have the most valuable pick in recent draft history. Maybe one of the most valuable ever.


Here is what we SHOULD do.

TRADE DOWN

Lets face facts folks. We wanted Bush because he was a great prospect..but also because it was expected. NOT taking him would have lead to quite a bit of ridicule.. and we may have really regretted it if he became a great player. But we dont need an RB.. we never HAVE needed an RB.. and if we get Kubiak as our HC, then we REALLY dont need an RB.

After that game.. the Bush hype has died down.. and if it STAYS down.. we can trade down and REALLY do ourselves some good.

But what if Vince Young is available you say? We dont need him. Sorry we really dont.. he looks great.. but is he Peyton Manning great? Is he Joe Montana great? no.. he may be Steve McNair great.. but I dont think that Steve McNair great would be a big upgrade over the budding talent we already have, David Carr. I know there are some people here who will totally disagree with that.. and nothing I say will change their mind.. but for those of you who ARE open minded.. keep in mind everything we have seen from Carr. He is OBVIOUSLY a great leader.. he is OBVIOUSLY a tough guy.. he is OBVIOUSLY gutsy.. he is OBVIOUSLY an extremely gifted athlete.. the biggest knocks against him are things which can, for the most part, be directly attributed to a poor offensive coordinator..and poor pass protection. Remember how he played when the offense was in his control.

I know, Vince Young is a hometown prospect.. well im sorry but the franchise is more important than one player.. and you can pretty much count on 3/4 of the league making us offers to trade up and grab either Bush, Young, or Lienart. Someone is gonna offer us quite a deal.. and there is alot of good we can do with it.

Dbrickshaw Ferguson
A.J. Hawk
Haloti Ngata
Michael Huff
Vernon Davis
Jimmy Williams
Winston Justice
Eric Winston

These are all players which will be available to us when we trade down. Are you telling me that you cant find someone here that you would want as bad as Bush, or Young? With our needs..you cant see someone here that looks just as tempting to you?

The extra picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds that we receive can be used on players like

Max Jean-Gilles
Jonathan Scott
David Thomas
Jeremy Trueblood
Taitusi Lutui
Nick Mangold
Gabe Watson
Jesse Mahelona
Leonard Pope

I know that id like more than a couple of these guys.



I think we have to think about what is best for the future of the franchise now. When Reggie Bush was a god amongst men.. that was what was best for the franchise.. and I know all you people who say "its just one game" will disagree.. but he isnt what is best anymore.. and neither is Vince Young.


Also.. for those of you who are saying "have you watched Reggie play? Have you seen more than one of his games?".. I ask you to go back and watch again. Imagine him going up against a defense that is just as fast as he is.. and tell me if he is going to have anywhere NEAR the same kind of success in the NFL? To save you some time.. ill tell you right now.. the answer is a resounding NO.

Last edited by Grid; 01-05-2006 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 01-05-2006   #2
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Well said that pretty much covers the next hundred days of discussion here. I wish somehow they could just hammer out a deal tonight. With a draft this deep 6 of the top 70 players could do wonders for this team.
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Old 01-05-2006   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
OK!.. this game was great for us for 2 big reasons. (or possibly 2 anyway)

1) Reggie Bush is no longer considered to be Jesus with more athletic ability. If we were to NOT take Bush now.. it would not lead to us being badly flamed by the media.

2) Here is the possible second reason. If Vince Young comes out.. we have the most valuable pick in recent draft history. Maybe one of the most valuable ever.


Here is what we SHOULD do.

TRADE DOWN

Lets face facts folks. We wanted Bush because he was a great prospect..but also because it was expected. NOT taking him would have lead to quite a bit of ridicule.. and we may have really regretted it if he became a great player. But we dont need an RB.. we never HAVE needed an RB.. and if we get Kubiak as our HC, then we REALLY dont need an RB.

After that game.. the Bush hype has died down.. and if it STAYS down.. we can trade down and REALLY do ourselves some good.

But what if Vince Young is available you say? We dont need him. Sorry we really dont.. he looks great.. but is he Peyton Manning great? Is he Joe Montana great? no.. he may be Steve McNair great.. but I dont think that Steve McNair great would be a big upgrade over the budding talent we already have, David Carr. I know there are some people here who will totally disagree with that.. and nothing I say will change their mind.. but for those of you who ARE open minded.. keep in mind everything we have seen from Carr. He is OBVIOUSLY a great leader.. he is OBVIOUSLY a tough guy.. he is OBVIOUSLY gutsy.. he is OBVIOUSLY an extremely gifted athlete.. the biggest knocks against him are things which can, for the most part, be directly attributed to a poor offensive coordinator..and poor pass protection. Remember how he played when the offense was in his control.

I know, Vince Young is a hometown prospect.. well im sorry but the franchise is more important than one player.. and you can pretty much count on 3/4 of the league making us offers to trade up and grab either Bush, Young, or Lienart. Someone is gonna offer us quite a deal.. and there is alot of good we can do with it.

Dbrickshaw Ferguson
A.J. Hawk
Haloti Ngata
Michael Huff
Vernon Davis
Jimmy Williams
Winston Justice
Eric Winston

These are all players which will be available to us when we trade down. Are you telling me that you cant find someone here that you would want as bad as Bush, or Young? With our needs..you cant see someone here that looks just as tempting to you?

The extra picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds that we receive can be used on players like

Max Jean-Gilles
Jonathan Scott
David Thomas
Jeremy Trueblood
Taitusi Lutui
Nick Mangold
Gabe Watson
Jesse Mahelona
Leonard Pope

I know that id like more than a couple of these guys.



I think we have to think about what is best for the future of the franchise now. When Reggie Bush was a god amongst men.. that was what was best for the franchise.. and I know all you people who say "its just one game" will disagree.. but he isnt what is best anymore.. and neither is Vince Young.


Also.. for those of you who are saying "have you watched Reggie play? Have you seen more than one of his games?".. I ask you to go back and watch again. Imagine him going up against a defense that is just as fast as he is.. and tell me if he is going to have anywhere NEAR the same kind of success in the NFL? To save you some time.. ill tell you right now.. the answer is a resounding NO.
He just did play a fast defese and only put up 177 offensive yards on 19 touches. In 11 of 13 games this season Bush has had atleast 1 carry of more than twenty yards. In 9 out of 13 games he had a run of atleast 40 yards. Name one present RB that has stats any were NEAR that. To save you some time. Ill tell you right now. The answer is 0
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Old 01-05-2006   #4
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yes.. when Bush gets around the corner he does very well... he wont get around the corner in the NFL.
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Old 01-05-2006   #5
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He runs atleast a 4.3 and probably a high 4.2 and he is the quickest player I have ever seen. Who exactly is going to stop him. Also dont forget he can plays WR. When he gets the ball he is a freak.
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Actually he is an A-Hole because he is an A-hole. just like a tiger is a tiger because he is a tiger.
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Old 01-05-2006   #6
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when he gets a straight away and kicks it into 2nd gear.. sure.. he probably runs a good 40... but when he is trying to get to that straightaway.. he is NOT fast. Adequate.. but not elite speed. He is also NOT shifty.. he is NOT quick.. at least, I didnt see it. Especially last night in the Rose Bowl.. he didnt avoid tackles :P

For a guy that is supposed to be so great.. he seems to have a problem with making the first guy miss.
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Old 01-05-2006   #7
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Like the post Grid except for one point. I do not think it is obvious that DC is a leader. Moreover, to not say that DC does not shoulder some of the blame for his inept four years of play is short sighted. I hope that it will get better as the franchise has been on his shoulders for the first four years and will most likely continue to be.
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Old 01-05-2006   #8
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No I think that part of the blame is Carr's... I just dont think that any more of the blame should be placed on him than is necessary. Of all the players on offense.. he has been in the worst position to show his ability.

He HASNT progressed.. he HAS bad habits.. but I dont think that his bad habits are unfixable, and I DO think that he can continue to get better if he had some help from the coaches and Oline.














And I think he is an obvious leader personally.. but it is hard to prove that without being in the lockerroom.
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Old 01-06-2006   #9
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The leader issue is grey. I saw Gary walker berate him on the sidelines for not listening to coaching. Not to say Gary is the best at that either, but Vince is a leader on the Longhorns and that is what we need. I see the texans players taking the company line when it comes to critising the franchise QB,but there are issues with Carr. Granted some QB's have gotten better with age and coaching, but lets just one time take a player that is extraordinary like we did back in the late 70's with another Longhorn from Tyler , Texas named Earl Campbell. I do feel David has gotten a bad deal lets let him go back to his home of the west coast and start over. Great discusions though.

Later.....................

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Old 01-06-2006   #10
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If you want a real NFL back draft White

If you want a slash or vick type (who is better at going through the progressions) QB draft Young

if you want a 3rd down back or slot WR draft Bush

If you dont wanna upgrade your O-line in FA draft O-line

If you get OL in FA and some one offers enough for Bush then trade down and go D.

alot of ifs huh.
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Old 01-06-2006   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grid
when he gets a straight away and kicks it into 2nd gear.. sure.. he probably runs a good 40... but when he is trying to get to that straightaway.. he is NOT fast. Adequate.. but not elite speed. He is also NOT shifty.. he is NOT quick.. at least, I didnt see it. Especially last night in the Rose Bowl.. he didnt avoid tackles :P

For a guy that is supposed to be so great.. he seems to have a problem with making the first guy miss.
Remember the 26 yard TD no other RB would have scored that. DD would have gotten tackled before he even got to the sideline.
The rose bowl must have been the only game who have seen of him.
Bush is already the shiftiest player in all of football pro and college I dont know what makes you think he isnt shifty.
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Actually he is an A-Hole because he is an A-hole. just like a tiger is a tiger because he is a tiger.
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Old 01-06-2006   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pscooter21
The leader issue is grey. I saw Gary walker berate him on the sidelines for not listening to coaching. Not to say Gary is the best at that either, but Vince is a leader on the Longhorns and that is what we need. I see the texans players taking the company line when it comes to critising the franchise QB,but there are issues with Carr. Granted some QB's have gotten better with age and coaching, but lets just one time take a player that is extraordinary like we did back in the late 70's with another Longhorn from Tyler , Texas named Earl Campbell. I do feel David has gotten a bad deal lets let him go back to his home of the west coast and start over. Great discusions though.

Later.....................

Pscooter21...................
Another plus for Carr.

G Walker, defensive player, berating Carr for not listening to Pendry, the worst Oline coach in the NFL who inexplicably got promoted to O-cordinator. Did anyone notice Carr did better calling his own plays instead of what Pendry called.
G Funk needs to look in the mirror before berating anyone.
Maybe Carr should call out Walker in front of the fans for not getting more sacks or pressure on the other teams QB. Stick a fork in Walker. Only his overblown contract will keep him here any longer.


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Old 01-06-2006   #13
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get off vince youngs jock he doesn't want you there. To everyone who wants vince young, where were you before the rose bowl thats all i gotta say, everyone else who just jumped on the bandwagon ya'll r pathetic.
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Old 01-06-2006   #14
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We are in a great position - except of course for the fact that we are low on talent and our salcap situation isn't great.

But, DRAFTWISE we are in a good spot. There are 3 guys (assuming VY comes out) worth a #1 overall pick - much better than last year when noone was worth pick (where would ASmith go in this draft? not in the top 10 picks).

So, which option helps us the most.

Option 1: pick 1 of 3 players (Bush, VY, Leinert)
BUSH: Gives us a RB that can fly. He didn't go inside n the Rose Bowl, but he did against UCLA and other teams. I think this guy is Tiki Barber, but faster. Even if we get Kubiak, which means we could get by with mediocre RBs, I like this guy as our TDavis.

VY: Potentially the greatest QB ever - - and no I am not on crack. VY looked bad until this year - just as bad as he will look for at least his first couple of years in the NFL. But, he became in college what he was in high school. If he makes that step again, he would be a creature that the NFL has never seen - a fast running qb with size and an arm - doing to the NFL what he did to USC.
HOWEVER, VY is also a potential bust. (face it - its his legs not his arm that makes him attractive) There is a reason no NFL QB has ever become what VY would need to be to succeed. Look at the best running QBs in the last couple of decades: while the jury is still out, Vick has become exposed as unable to take a good team to the next level and injuries are a concern; Cunningham, injuries again; Kordel, the worst case scenario with a running QB; and thats about it.

LEINERT is not enough of an improvement over Carr for us to take him and rebuild - so this option has not been given serious thought. But, Leinert should be better than Carr so it is at least a possibility.

Option 2: Trade the pick

2A - trade down to pick 2 or 3; take Bush if he is there or trade down again. (this makes sense if QB hungry teams are willing to pay to move up)
2B - trade all the way down: keep dealing down and picking up picks. I was for this when we got the team (idea being to parlay the pick into a dozen or more picks in the first 3 rounds over the next 3 years).
2C - target a certain player or slot and get as much as you can dealing down. Ferguson at 4 or Hawk/Williams at 5 or possibilities. Or just figuring you would be happy with whoever fell to #6 and trading down to that spot.
2D - target a player on another team. Who could we get that would help us that would pay the price to move up: Detroit might give up #9 and RoyWilliams giving us a superb WR tandem and them a good qb; AZ might give up its pick along with an OL and Dansby; (and on and on with other teams)


Until we get more analysis, its hard to say which approach is best. Personally, I would prefer a safe approach and would not take VY. But, I like the idea of moving down to 3. Tenn would have to give us its 2nd+3rd+4th or 2nd and 4th this year and another 2nd next year according to the point value chart. At 3 we take Bush. If NO takes Bush, which I doubt, then we deal down again - either for Jets 1st and 2nd picks (and maybe a 2nd next year) if we target Ferguson or down a little farther for 1st, 2nd and 3rd picks this year and a #1 in 2007.

If we ended up at pick 3: Bush/2aJean-Gilles/2bPope, Winston or best OT/3aTutui if still there/3bMangold

If we ended up at 4: Ferguson/2aJean-Gilles/2b Pope, O'Callaghan or CB Hill/2cTutui/3a BAP, I think a good DT will drop like Harris or Bunkley/3b 3cMangold
If we ended up at 4, we could totally rebuild our OL: LOT Ferguson, LOG Tutui, C Mangold, RG JeanGilles, RT Pitts, TE Pope - If we took O'Callaghan instead of Pope or Jean-Gilles - fill in Pitts' name at a G position to replace whichever one we didn't get.
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Old 01-06-2006   #15
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trade down and take as many O linemen as you can in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round..
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Old 01-06-2006   #16
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trade down and take as many O linemen as you can in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round..
There is no way we draft more than two linemen in the first three rounds we would be paying to much money to way to many players who play the same position.
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Old 01-06-2006   #17
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yah im thinking 2 olinemen on the first day, and 1.. MAYBE 2 Olinemen out of FA. putting 4 new Olinemen on the roster would be a bit difficult without cutting some valuable players though. 3 strikes me as the magic number.
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Old 01-06-2006   #18
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After that game.. the Bush hype has died down.. and if it STAYS down.. we can trade down and REALLY do ourselves some good.
Bush talk has died down for one reason and for one reason only...VINCE YOUNG, not your trade down scenarios that have been here since day one...
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Old 01-06-2006   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbajwp
There is no way we draft more than two linemen in the first three rounds we would be paying to much money to way to many players who play the same position.
BTW, five OLinemen are on the field at the same time for every play, and at some point in time we need to drastically overhaul our OLine and this is the best draft in many years to do it. It makes a lot more sense to draft 2-3 OLinemen in the top 3 rounds and pay them a combined $30 million than to draft another RB and pay our top two RBs $80 million when only one can really be involved in a play at any time.
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Old 01-06-2006   #20
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BTW, five OLinemen are on the field at the same time for every play, and at some point in time we need to drastically overhaul our OLine and this is the best draft in many years to do it. It makes a lot more sense to draft 2-3 OLinemen in the top 3 rounds and pay them a combined $30 million than to draft another RB and pay our top two RBs $80 million when only one can really be involved in a play at any time.
combine the thirty million and S McKinney, Todd Wade, Pitts, Wiegert, and Rileys contracts and tell me what you get.
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Actually he is an A-Hole because he is an A-hole. just like a tiger is a tiger because he is a tiger.
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