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Old 12-05-2005   #21
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To add two comments --

Shaun Alexander and ... some other big name FA RB (I forget who) were being shopped around this past offseason and their teams could not even get a 3rd round pick for them. So all this DD trade talk is pretty silly, especially when you factor in the new contract. Besides, if we compiled a top-10 list of what's wrong with this team, DD would be nowhere on the list. This line of reasoning leads me to believe it's pretty illogical to draft Bush. The only argument I have seen (repeatedly, dear god) for drafting Bush is "You can't pass up that talent!". Well, we may or may not end up picking #1 overall, but Bush will likely go in the top 3 picks. There aren't that many joint occurrences of RBs and tackles being taken in the top 5, but there are plenty in which a tackle and a sure-fire prospect otherwise were taken in the top 5 or 10.

In 1993, the Cardinals took Garrison Hearst at 1.3. Hearst was probably every bit as hyped as Bush is now, but people have short memories when it comes to these things. The Saints took Willie Roaf at 1.8. The Rams took Bettis at 1.10 and even though Bettis won ROY, I'd be willing to bet the Rams wish they'd taken Roaf. In 1995, the Bengals took Ki Jana Carter at 1.1 and he was as hyped as any college player entering the pro ranks has ever been. The Jags took Tony Boselli at 1.2 and I'm going to guess that, even with Boselli's shortened career, they feel like they got the better of those two picks. In 1997, Shawn Springs and Darrel Russell were highly-touted defensive players in what was a defense-heavy draft. Half of the first 20 picks were defensive and only 5 were skill positions (including Tony Gonzales). Orlando Pace was taken at 1.1 overall, Darrell Russell at 1.2, and Shawn Springs at 1.3. Incidentally, the team that took Springs at 1.3 also took Walter Jones at 1.6. In 2002, the top pick overall was David Carr. Yay. Harrington was the only other skill position taken in the top 10. Now, Carr was not as hyped as some of these other players coming out of college, but here are some of the other players taken in the top 9 spots - Peppers, Jammer, and John Henderson. I am willing to bet that the Vikings are happy with their 1.7 pick of Bryant McKinnie at LT and the Bengals will want to keep Levi Jones at 1.10. Anyway, just some food for thought.

Second, all this talk about Bush being 200 lbs. contains a great deal of hypocrisy. Many people that deride DD for his size and perceived durability are the same ones touting Bush as the Messiah. And the reverse occurs frequently as well.
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Old 12-05-2005   #22
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I don't recall Garrison Hearst being considered the elite no-brainer everyone seems to think Bush is, and I have followed the draft closely for decades. I just remember him being considered the best back in that draft class....Bush is being talked about like a once in a decade or two type talent.
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Old 12-05-2005   #23
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Vinny is right, there is a huge difference between the best back in the draft and one of the best backs in any draft. Kind of like comparing Peyton Manning to David Carr.
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Old 12-05-2005   #24
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Once in a decade sounds pretty darn correct to me.
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Old 12-05-2005   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriadoc
To add two comments --

Shaun Alexander and ... some other big name FA RB (I forget who) were being shopped around this past offseason and their teams could not even get a 3rd round pick for them. So all this DD trade talk is pretty silly, especially when you factor in the new contract. Besides, if we compiled a top-10 list of what's wrong with this team, DD would be nowhere on the list. This line of reasoning leads me to believe it's pretty illogical to draft Bush. The only argument I have seen (repeatedly, dear god) for drafting Bush is "You can't pass up that talent!". Well, we may or may not end up picking #1 overall, but Bush will likely go in the top 3 picks. There aren't that many joint occurrences of RBs and tackles being taken in the top 5, but there are plenty in which a tackle and a sure-fire prospect otherwise were taken in the top 5 or 10.

In 1993, the Cardinals took Garrison Hearst at 1.3. Hearst was probably every bit as hyped as Bush is now, but people have short memories when it comes to these things. The Saints took Willie Roaf at 1.8. The Rams took Bettis at 1.10 and even though Bettis won ROY, I'd be willing to bet the Rams wish they'd taken Roaf. In 1995, the Bengals took Ki Jana Carter at 1.1 and he was as hyped as any college player entering the pro ranks has ever been. The Jags took Tony Boselli at 1.2 and I'm going to guess that, even with Boselli's shortened career, they feel like they got the better of those two picks. In 1997, Shawn Springs and Darrel Russell were highly-touted defensive players in what was a defense-heavy draft. Half of the first 20 picks were defensive and only 5 were skill positions (including Tony Gonzales). Orlando Pace was taken at 1.1 overall, Darrell Russell at 1.2, and Shawn Springs at 1.3. Incidentally, the team that took Springs at 1.3 also took Walter Jones at 1.6. In 2002, the top pick overall was David Carr. Yay. Harrington was the only other skill position taken in the top 10. Now, Carr was not as hyped as some of these other players coming out of college, but here are some of the other players taken in the top 9 spots - Peppers, Jammer, and John Henderson. I am willing to bet that the Vikings are happy with their 1.7 pick of Bryant McKinnie at LT and the Bengals will want to keep Levi Jones at 1.10. Anyway, just some food for thought.

Second, all this talk about Bush being 200 lbs. contains a great deal of hypocrisy. Many people that deride DD for his size and perceived durability are the same ones touting Bush as the Messiah. And the reverse occurs frequently as well.
Good post E. I have been asking to trade down to take LT Ferguson, but even my want reminds me that LTs are not any different in the hype, see Tony Mandarich.
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Old 12-05-2005   #26
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I would like to see us keep DD and get Bush. All good NFL teams have a change of pace back. You need more than one back to carry the work load, with the exception of 2-3 teams. What bad could come from haveing more than one good back, or for that instance more than 1 good backup. Also with the versatility of Bush he could be split out wide and be a factor.
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Old 12-05-2005   #27
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It also could extend the lengths of both careers too.
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Old 12-05-2005   #28
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Not exactly like Davis is chopped liver anyhow. In 3 years, the guy has rushed for 3056. He's on his way to his third straight thousand yard season and although his touchdown numbers are going to dip, I still think the Texans have a hell of a HB already on their roster.

I like Bush as much as anyone else, but if Houston can get a good return trade-wise, I wouldn't hesitate.
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Old 12-05-2005   #29
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I'll be curious to see just how brave Casserly is with that trade possibility right now, assuming there's a #1 pick for Houston and assuming Cass is still employed by the Texans come draft-time. A couple of bad trades (see Babin and Buchanon) may make him less willing to stick his neck out.
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Old 12-05-2005   #30
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A silver lining could be that if Casserly thought that Babin was worth what he traded for, imagine what he thinks Reggie Bush is worth.
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Old 12-05-2005   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulexan
A silver lining could be that if Casserly thought that Babin was worth what he traded for, imagine what he thinks Reggie Bush is worth.
Casserly probably has a 3rd round grade on him. I heard him say "weeeeeell, I don't know if ya can pick a guy number one who will be a part time playa you know".
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Old 12-05-2005   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
Casserly probably has a 3rd round grade on him. I heard him say "weeeeeell, I don't know if ya can pick a guy number one who will be a part time playa you know".
Haha, that was pretty much how he sounded on the radio.
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Old 12-05-2005   #33
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The way I see it is this, that run that Davis had set up a field goal for us because he was caught from behind. Bush would finish that play with a TD.

Guys, this guy has a legend who has never had contact with before vying for him as legit. Gayle Sayers has mentioned that this guy has skills that you just can't coach. He basically is saying this guy will make it in the NFL. We gotta get him and instead of building the offense around Carr, build the offense around him.
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Old 12-05-2005   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
Good post E. I have been asking to trade down to take LT Ferguson, but even my want reminds me that LTs are not any different in the hype, see Tony Mandarich.
No position is exempt from busts, but first-round tackles have actually been surprisingly correct picks. Mandarich is the big name that sticks out for tackle, but there are a few others that weren't as hyped that really haven't lived up to expectations as well. Running backs are not taken as frequently in the top 20 anymore, with good reason, but there have been many more hyped players bust out at running back than at tackle. Of course, the proviso to this is we're dealing with a fluid intangible called "hype" Just off the top of my head, however, in the last 10 years, I can think of Thomas Jones (considered a bust until last year), Curtis Enis, Robert Edwards (injuries, IIRC), Lawrence Phillips, Tim Biakabutuka, KiJana Carter, Ty Wheatley (lasted a while, but never lived up to 1st-round status), and Nap Kaufman (injuries). I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. Skill position players are just so dependent upon the team around them to make plays and our team's foundation is too flawed for skill position players to consistently be effective.

Victor Riley was taken in the first round in 1998, I think, since we're on the topic of busts
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Old 12-05-2005   #35
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I pose this question. Can Reggie Bush block? Can he pick up the blitz. If so then he's our man as DD just doesn't have it be a complete RB. Sure he racked up big yards yesterday, but it few and far between. Could another RB have done just as good, some of those holes were blantanly wide open.
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Old 12-05-2005   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
I pose this question. Can Reggie Bush block? Can he pick up the blitz. If so then he's our man as DD just doesn't have it be a complete RB. Sure he racked up big yards yesterday, but it few and far between. Could another RB have done just as good, some of those holes were blantanly wide open.
I can honsetly say that I have not seen marked improvement from DD in his blocking. And I have not watched Bush enough to see him in the backfield where he is called to block. This very important piece of the game will need to be addressed by Bush's team to any prospective suitor.
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Old 12-05-2005   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SESupergenius
I pose this question. Can Reggie Bush block? Can he pick up the blitz. If so then he's our man as DD just doesn't have it be a complete RB. Sure he racked up big yards yesterday, but it few and far between. Could another RB have done just as good, some of those holes were blantanly wide open.
I'll agree that DD's blocking is his weakest point. There was at least one sack yesterday that was squarely on his shoulders. I hate that he is such a poor blocker. However, I'll have to disagree with you on the "blatantly wide open" statement about the running lanes yesterday. DD did a lot of the work himself cutting back and picking up yardage in traffic. Even when he is going down, he always seems to squeeze between a couple guys and end up with a yard or two more than you initally thought he had. One of the things that everyone overlooks about DD is the way he keeps his legs moving and breaks tackles quite a bit. That is not a given with running backs. Many of the speedster tailbacks coming out of college have never really had to break tackles in the NCAA because they've had good college-level O-lines and the speed to get outside. In the NFL, getting an outside corner and getting upfield is not that common. DD does a great job of running between the tackles.
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Old 12-05-2005   #38
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I havn't watched enough of Bush to determine that either, but that is a major factor in considering him to be the number one pick, he has to be a complete back. If he's not then DD will suffice and we can focus our pick in another direction.
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Old 12-05-2005   #39
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What I have seen of Bush he SEEMS to be a better blocker (2 games) than DD (horrible), but he doesn't seem to have the power to move the pile like DD did Sunday. DD is the more of a power runner (not a Bettis) and Bush is more of the outside runner. Both can do either, but they each have their niche. Once they are in the open it's hands down Bush. I suspect that DD has the better hands.
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Old 12-05-2005   #40
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Why do we have to trade Davis?

The thing with Bush is, is that you could line him up at WR any time you wanted.
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