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Old 12-01-2005   #21
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NOBODY dislikes Capers, or Casserly, or any of this sad bunch of coaches. It's not about Capers, it's about the team being real bad. It's unfortunate all the way around. Best would be to let him go now, not make him walk through these next five weeks as if nothing was wrong. What's wrong is making him stay.
You are right on this one. I feel that the meltdown of this year is just part of a continuing decline that started last season. None of us are trying to say that Capers or Casserly are bad people, just bad at running a football team. They are not right for the long term interests of this team. Capers seems to have become some kind of a matyr to many people around here. A good man being treated wrong. Unfortunately, it seems that these feelings are also shared by the owner if we are to believe the article from ESPN. Holding on to Capers for appearance sake is not good for this team or for Dom himself. Firing him now closes the door on this whole chapter in Texans' history and forces everyone to start on the process of rebuilding.
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Old 12-01-2005   #22
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Short publicity... it's now Duke on the "front page headlines".
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Old 12-01-2005   #23
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In looking towards next year, what I found interesting was the comment that they would build the offense around Carr. IMO, this sounds like McNair/Casserly are already planning a trade-down of Reggie Bush to give Carr a line and somebody else to throw to (TE).
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Old 12-01-2005   #24
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Originally Posted by Grid
oh god.. please keep Capers over Billick or Martz.

Billick has done worse than Capers despite having one of the best defensive lineups in the league. And if you think Capers makes boneheaded decisions in games.. wait till you see what Martz is capable of.
Billick and Martz have each coached a Super Bowl Champ. Capers has never coached in a Super Bowl.
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Old 12-01-2005   #25
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Toro I am with ya give me Wins above anything. I dont want either of them, but Grid's thought process is way off.
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Old 12-01-2005   #26
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Originally Posted by oso
In looking towards next year, what I found interesting was the comment that they would build the offense around Carr. IMO, this sounds like McNair/Casserly are already planning a trade-down of Reggie Bush to give Carr a line and somebody else to throw to (TE).
I think at this point that almost everything we read everywhere is speculation. Honestly, other than "Mooch is fired in Detroit" and hence available (not that I'm saying we should go that route) nothing else is certain.

I can't wait for this season to get over with so we can get this show on the road.
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Old 12-01-2005   #27
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Originally Posted by cadahnic
Toro I am with ya give me Wins above anything. I dont want either of them, but Grid's thought process is way off.
I want guys with attitude and rings on our staff. Professional athletes respect coaches who have been to the top of the mountain, especially the more talented players.

Back to the article, I cannot belive I read the words to the tune of rebuilding around Carr. Any Texan on the roster who read that is probably calling their agent to say get me off this crazy thing. Has any player done less to warrant more?

I have contended for quite some time Martz would be a very good OC for a young Defensive minded HC like Jerry Gray.
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Old 12-01-2005   #28
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Almost every pro scout and personel person feels that CARR has tremendous talent. I have even heard some go as far as saying he is a more mobile Carson Palmer. I doubt that, but Palmer is more accurate and Carr has likely the bigger gun, but Palmer is winning and that is what counts.

I think ESPN and other sites that are talking about rebuilding around Carr are accuarate and feel that it is a good idea. I am one of those guys that thinks it is a good idea, but I will only hold that feeling for about half the next season. Cause with the new players and coaching staff Carr better get the job done.
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Old 12-01-2005   #29
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Has any quarterback in the league taken more of a beating than Carr?

I don't think rebuilding around Carr means trading down to get more picks. That makes me think that they are going to focus on offense this offseason. If they have the first overall pick I really can't see them passing on Reggie Bush. McNair would be cruxified by the fans. It may not be our biggest need, but I have to say, the more I watch him the more I like him. I used to be a huge D'Brick no matter what guy, but after that Fresno State game I was convinced the other way. I think taking Bush first and Jean Gilles second would be just as good as taking D'Brick first and a TE second.
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Old 12-01-2005   #30
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[quote=bigTEXan8]I doubt any player on the roster is going to be upset that the Texans are finally going to protect the QB and give him other players around him, unless they are members of the o-line or anybody from the WR corp. [quote]

Back in the early part of the season when I was very hard on DC and his contract, the question was posed - what happens when DC gets protection? Will that equate to more wins, better stats, more points? Looks like we have gotten more of the same. DC has an arm, is accurate and is tough, but those three attributes are not great enough to remedy is other deficiencies - reading the defense, progressions, footwork in the pocket, leadership. What is it going to take for the Texans to be successful with him as QB is the question I ask myself. I find a lot of people asking the question what is it going to take Carr to be successful with the Texans.

I am a Texans fan, not a Carr fan. Whatever is done will be done, I just want to win no matter who has at QB. It just pains me that we are hithcing the future of our franchise to somene who has has not produced.
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Old 12-01-2005   #31
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My thoughts on Billick and Martz are kind of the same of how I feel about Casserly. It seems like all three were somehow anointed with the title of genius and they continue to toted as football gods when their recent history does not warrant it.

We are always reminded of Casserly’s work with the Redskins and how many Super Bowls they won during those years. However, it is rarely mentioned that the previous GM played a role in assembling those teams. If you review the subsequent drafts, you see some success, but also plenty of questionable moves. The bottom line is the last Casserly Super Bowl team was over about 15 years ago and nothing indicates that the Texans are any closer to this lofty goal under his watch.

Brian Billick gained the reputation of being an offensive wiz based on his work with the Minnesota Vikings many years ago. A team that built by Dennis Green with an incredible assortment of superstars, including Randy Moss. Again, we are talking about events that occurred well over a decade ago. He was able to win a Super Bowl, but this team was built around playing defense and running the football, not the offense. This defense was largely the work of Marvin Lewis, who went on to create good defenses with both the Redskins and the Bengals. He was credited with maintaining some semblance of order during the chaos of the Spurrier era with the Skins. Lewis’ body of work also includes the revival of the horrible Bengals. So, maybe Lewis might have been the real reason for the success of the Ravens. Billick’s team never have been able to create any kind of an offense. It appears to be on the decline with age catching up with the defense. There have been numerous reports of players being undisciplined on and off the field under his watch.

Mike Martz is credited with the “Greatest Show on Turf”. However, the one Super Bowl the Rams won was actually coached by Dick Vermeil. Despite all the talent, Martz teams have only been to the Super Bowl once with him as the head man (a loss). Vermeil went on to create a similar offense with the Chiefs that the Texans have been trashed by on a few occasions. So the question is who really was the offensive genius? Martz has been widely criticized for ignoring the running game and putting the quarterback into harm’s way. He has made numerous tactical errors and displayed an inability to adjust to what the opponent is doing.
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Old 12-01-2005   #32
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I sure as hell dont like Billick he wont be able to do anything here We have a Kyle Boller type of Qb here as well. i wont mention any names who that certain Qb is i dont want the Homers Getting all riled up.



And Martz his Qb has to have some Cajones To stay in the Pocket and wait for a route to develop and we dont have that type of Qb either especially having so many options in Martz Offense Our Qb No names of course would LOCK on to his first read like always.:brickwall

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Old 12-01-2005   #33
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Originally Posted by Texans427
I do believe that we should keep that #1 pick and get the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE!! We need to start thinking about better personnel. I am not in favor of trading down for a tackle or a guard. I'd rather throw a little cash at a FA (tackle or guard) and get youth and experience instead of just drafting youth.
I posted this on another thread, but to summarize, there are precious few left tackles that were drafted outside the first round that are solid, much less game-changers. So if you draft Bush this year, you're essentially gambling that we buck the trend of history and find a diamond in the rough from round at left tackle. Or, if you prefer, look to free agency. Last year that got us Victor Riley. Thsi year, the list of free agent tackles consists of ONE starter -- LJ Shelton. He was dumped by Arizona after 6 years and signed by the Browns to a one-year contract. So we could get him.

Left tackles don't come from free agency. They get drafted in the first round and developed, or you accidentally stumble across one that you hadn't planned on (Kevin Shaffer, ATL, 7th round draft pick - coached by Gibbs).
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Old 12-01-2005   #34
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Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
I am a Texans fan, not a Carr fan. Whatever is done will be done, I just want to win no matter who has at QB. It just pains me that we are hithcing the future of our franchise to somene who has has not produced.
This is where I'll have to disagree with you - slightly. If we a solid left tackle in the first round this year, we're not hitching our wagon to Carr. Sure, Carr gets another year or maybe two, but we're really focusing on the trenches. If Carr doesn't produce behind that line, it's easier to make a QB pick work at that point. Maybe you sign a vet FA next year to compete with Carr and the following year, draft Vince Young, or Brady Quinn, or whatever the next hot prospect is. At that point, you've solidified your line so that paying a top pick that kind of money won't be a waste.

I get what you're saying, I just choose to view it as fixing the foundation before you worry about the QB spot.
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Old 12-01-2005   #35
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Originally Posted by ATX_Texan
My thoughts on Billick and Martz are kind of the same of how I feel about Casserly. It seems like all three were somehow anointed with the title of genius and they continue to toted as football gods when their recent history does not warrant it.

We are always reminded of Casserly’s work with the Redskins and how many Super Bowls they won during those years. However, it is rarely mentioned that the previous GM played a role in assembling those teams. If you review the subsequent drafts, you see some success, but also plenty of questionable moves. The bottom line is the last Casserly Super Bowl team was over about 15 years ago and nothing indicates that the Texans are any closer to this lofty goal under his watch.

Brian Billick gained the reputation of being an offensive wiz based on his work with the Minnesota Vikings many years ago. A team that built by Dennis Green with an incredible assortment of superstars, including Randy Moss. Again, we are talking about events that occurred well over a decade ago. He was able to win a Super Bowl, but this team was built around playing defense and running the football, not the offense. This defense was largely the work of Marvin Lewis, who went on to create good defenses with both the Redskins and the Bengals. He was credited with maintaining some semblance of order during the chaos of the Spurrier era with the Skins. Lewis’ body of work also includes the revival of the horrible Bengals. So, maybe Lewis might have been the real reason for the success of the Ravens. Billick’s team never have been able to create any kind of an offense. It appears to be on the decline with age catching up with the defense. There have been numerous reports of players being undisciplined on and off the field under his watch.

Mike Martz is credited with the “Greatest Show on Turf”. However, the one Super Bowl the Rams won was actually coached by Dick Vermeil. Despite all the talent, Martz teams have only been to the Super Bowl once with him as the head man (a loss). Vermeil went on to create a similar offense with the Chiefs that the Texans have been trashed by on a few occasions. So the question is who really was the offensive genius? Martz has been widely criticized for ignoring the running game and putting the quarterback into harm’s way. He has made numerous tactical errors and displayed an inability to adjust to what the opponent is doing.

Solid viewpoints.
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Old 12-01-2005   #36
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I don't think Capers has been fired yet. I am with Dannymac who posted on another thread.
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Old 12-01-2005   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATX_Texan
My thoughts on Billick and Martz are kind of the same of how I feel about Casserly. It seems like all three were somehow anointed with the title of genius and they continue to toted as football gods when their recent history does not warrant it.

We are always reminded of Casserly’s work with the Redskins and how many Super Bowls they won during those years. However, it is rarely mentioned that the previous GM played a role in assembling those teams. If you review the subsequent drafts, you see some success, but also plenty of questionable moves. The bottom line is the last Casserly Super Bowl team was over about 15 years ago and nothing indicates that the Texans are any closer to this lofty goal under his watch.

Brian Billick gained the reputation of being an offensive wiz based on his work with the Minnesota Vikings many years ago. A team that built by Dennis Green with an incredible assortment of superstars, including Randy Moss. Again, we are talking about events that occurred well over a decade ago. He was able to win a Super Bowl, but this team was built around playing defense and running the football, not the offense. This defense was largely the work of Marvin Lewis, who went on to create good defenses with both the Redskins and the Bengals. He was credited with maintaining some semblance of order during the chaos of the Spurrier era with the Skins. Lewis’ body of work also includes the revival of the horrible Bengals. So, maybe Lewis might have been the real reason for the success of the Ravens. Billick’s team never have been able to create any kind of an offense. It appears to be on the decline with age catching up with the defense. There have been numerous reports of players being undisciplined on and off the field under his watch.

Mike Martz is credited with the “Greatest Show on Turf”. However, the one Super Bowl the Rams won was actually coached by Dick Vermeil. Despite all the talent, Martz teams have only been to the Super Bowl once with him as the head man (a loss). Vermeil went on to create a similar offense with the Chiefs that the Texans have been trashed by on a few occasions. So the question is who really was the offensive genius? Martz has been widely criticized for ignoring the running game and putting the quarterback into harm’s way. He has made numerous tactical errors and displayed an inability to adjust to what the opponent is doing.
Before this season the Ravens were 60-41 under Billick. He came aboard in 1999. Lewis was there in 1996 and his stalwart defenses helped the Ravens to a 16-31 record. It was not until Billick got there did the team's attitude and winning ways begin. Billick's offense included the second best season ever by a RB. Oh yeah, he won a Super Bowl.

Martz's offense has put up great numbers. Good enough that Vermeil thought he would be more than adequate to take over the reigns in St.Louis. Has Vermeil been back to the Super Bowl? He has not. Martz did. Has Vermeil lost his QB in KC like when Warner went down? He has not. I do not want to take Martz as a HC, but come on lets compare apples with apples.

I cannot address a comparision between Casserly and the two guys above. It is apples and oranges.
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Old 12-01-2005   #38
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My response was actually based on this little nugget from the ESPN article: “Should Brian Billick or Mike Martz become available, they will move toward the top of his list because they could bring in the offensive structure to give Carr a chance to be a successful quarterback.”

I just find it strange that Billick is still credited with being an offensive genius. Again, most people tend to parrot this so-called fact, which seems to go back to his work with the Vikings years ago. I still question how much of his success as a head coach is based upon having one of the best defenses in the last ten years. A defense that he appears to not really be involved with. The GM of the Ravens is also credited with being one of the best in the NFL. If Casserly stays around here, I don’t think Billick would have that luxury in working with the Texans. To me, the whole run the ball and play great defense seems very much like the Capers way of doing things.

Martz definitely has produced some pretty amazing offensive stats. My question is why the running game completely vanished when he took over the team. Dick Vermeil changed the Chief into the Rams and he actually kept the running part of the game plan. He has made Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson into premier runners. I think that the downfall of both Vermeil and his protégé Martz are their failure to place much importance on defense. Martz did make it to the Super Bowl, but he also is widely blamed for losing it as well. Most critics point to his pass at all costs philosophy and poor clock management for the loss. This inability to make adjustments and to try and impose your will on the opponent reminds me too much of Capers. Finally, Martz does not put much emphasis on protecting the quarterback and that would appear to be a priority in regards to one David Carr.
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Old 12-01-2005   #39
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I dont think i gotta say much.. my points about Billick and Martz has already been proved by a couple other posts here.

I just want to repeat that we would be better off NOT hiring a coach that just got fired because he is incapable of winning or creating anything resembling an offense(Billick).. or someone who has the same stubbornness about playing "his way", no matter how bad an idea it might be, that Cappers suffers from (Martz).


And btw.. anyone who argues that the Ravens won the superbowl because of their offensive genius needs to wake up. They were one of the best defenses in the last couple decades.. and that is the only reason they won.
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Old 12-01-2005   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser Toro
Billick and Martz have each coached a Super Bowl Champ. Capers has never coached in a Super Bowl.
Billick inherited one of the top 5 greatest defenses of all time, Martz inherited the "Greatest show on turf", I could have coached them to a Super Bowl.
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